Electric vehicles and their batteries.

ruca

Member
A month ago, had a big screw in my rear tire and was leaking bad. I stopped by the nearest MB dealership in Ontario for a fix and while waiting, they let me test drove a GLA and I was impressed. We sat down and talked about it and I asked the salesperson why can't MB make a better hybrid automobiles compared to Toyota. My wife and I wants a hybrid but are just willing to wait for a longer range (electric mode) battery. We have 32 solar panels on our rooftop and all our future vehicles will be hybrids.
 

220629

Well-known member
If... when? electric vehicles become the choice of the masses will our aging USA electrical infrastructure be up the task of supplying them all with charging power? Regulations are causing many electrical generation facilities to be shut down. I don't see much more new capacity being added to the grid.

Regulations make putting more generation on line very expensive/difficult. If you hang your hopes on wind power the NIMBY's are working hard against that. Even solar has a bit of NIMBY influence... the panels look so industrial in our pretty pristine area.

Electric vehicles are really still a bit of a novelty. More EV's on the road could make things interesting.

:cheers: vic
 

lindenengineering

Well-known member
If... when? electric vehicles become the choice of the masses will our aging USA electrical infrastructure be up the task of supplying them all with charging power? Regulations are causing many electrical generation facilities to be shut down. I don't see much more new capacity being added to the grid.

Regulations make putting more generation on line very expensive/difficult. If you hang your hopes on wind power the NIMBY's are working hard against that. Even solar has a bit of NIMBY influence... the panels look so industrial in our pretty pristine area.

Electric vehicles are really still a bit of a novelty. More EV's on the road could make things interesting.

:cheers: vic
Vic
One thing to remember and this might sound a bit futuristic.
However take into account that most private vehicles are parked for about 20 hours of the day at home or at a work place.
Now imaging the parc nationwide being about 80% all electric, all hooked up to charging stands.

At night say being charged with the grid connection at lower priced, low demand period cheap(er) electricity.
During the day being charged by either solar, off the grid, on the grid, or by having sufficient stored power from within the vehicle battery. Recharged by used, like re-generation or cheap off peak electricity. So we now have a big parc of mobile batteries all hooked to the grid through charging stands . .

At peak rates these cars; -now really a huge reserve of batteries. can feed the grid sucking out the power from your car to a predetermined level then shutting down to allow you to get home. You get a credit from the utility for the power used at peak rates.
You get home and plug in!
Once you hit off peak rates you then auto re-charge, say while sleeping and pay for electricity at off peak cheap rates. Maybe you just also have a few extra cars about being charged by free solar energy-BUT deliver on demand power to the grid during the day at peak rates--You get a credit for that!
Its not all doom!
In fact its just another way of providing electrical power --generate it locally by a combination of clean sources & not produce it all by fossil fuel and transmit it hundreds of miles by grid structures. Therein lies the real cost of supplying traditional electric power!
Food for thought!
Dennis
 
If... when? electric vehicles become the choice of the masses will our aging USA electrical infrastructure be up the task of supplying them all with charging power? Regulations are causing many electrical generation facilities to be shut down. I don't see much more new capacity being added to the grid.

Regulations make putting more generation on line very expensive/difficult.

There is a new natural gas fired power plant being built approx 15 miles from here as we speak. It should be online by 2019 if I have read correctly. This plant was first introduced and permits applied for almost 10 years ago. Lawsuits from environmental groups, appeals of permits, etc. delayed construction until recently.

During that time, the other local power plant which was coal fired, was shut down. If I understand correctly, the new plant was to be up and running to replace the coal plant before it closed. But, the permit application/appeal process left a 2+ year void.

I don't want to get in to the politics of the entire process, but why would anyone who is supposedly for betterment of the environment, fight to keep a cleaner technology from replacing a antiquated one to the point of leaving a void in the grid, at least temporarily?
 

220629

Well-known member
Vic
One thing to remember and this might sound a bit futuristic.
...
Food for thought!
Dennis
Maybe. Off peak cycle use is nothing new. New ideas and technologies can certainly help.

Using EV batteries as a grid source is an interesting concept, but not necessarily very green. There are fairly significant losses during the charging cycle and in some ways even during the discharge cycle. It may help to smooth out demand, but it is not necessarily very efficient.

I guess my point was that EV isn't necessarily a plug and play option for replacing all the petroleum fueled vehicles.

vic
 

Graphite Dave

Dave Orton
I guess my point was that EV isn't necessarily a plug and play option for replacing all the petroleum fueled vehicles.
There are some environmental advantages to electric vehicles. In my case I would not get in a electric powered vehicle for a no destination drive just to enjoy the drive. (Or worse yet an autonomous self driving car) A couple of days ago I got in the new manual transmission Porsche 718 and just headed up the coast Hwy 1 just because that is what I enjoy doing. Very bad to pollute the atmosphere for no logical reason. There is a need to force people like me to purchase an electric vehicle to eliminate such a useless waste of energy.

I have been forced to buy the Porsche because cars like that will soon be eliminated. Had to buy it now while it was still available. Now I have the vehicles I will need to cover the time until someone tales my license from me due to old age incapacity.
 

surlyoldbill

Well-known member
The vast majority of passenger cars never drive more than 50 miles a day, because the vast majority of people in the USA live in urban areas.

It's too easy to use yourself as a yardstick to compare everyone else. Here on the West Coast, there are huge spaces between areas, and a 5-10 hour drive for a trip is a regular occurrence (ie; SF to LA, LA to Phoenix, Denver to SLC, SF to LV, SF to Portland, SF to Tahoe or Reno, etc). Back East, where things are closer together, a 500 mile day seems extraordinary. For many West Coasters (includes Southwest), an electric vehicle with only 200 mile range and half hour "quick charge" to 80% isn't practical. It is for those that rarely venture out of the cities, though. And even then, they could rent a hybrid or standard vehicle for the 4-5x times a year they want to drive somewhere hundreds of miles away.

So, the drain on the grid. Since electric vehicles with current and near-future technology would only be supplanting vehicles that drive very few miles per year, the demand on the grid would be much less than expected. And once they become more ubiquitous, there would be all kinds of tinkerers and companies providing products to charge, extend range, and otherwise entice people to "save money" by buying something. Eventually battery technology will catch up, and long range and fast charging systems will exist. Even semi trucks will be electric. At THAT point energy production will be a major issue, and one can only hope that production technology will also increase, or other demands on the grid will be reduced. Lighting and electronics are already using a LOT less power than they were just 20 years ago.

Market pressures dictate product development.

I'm keeping an eye out for an electric car to replace the life accomplice's old Passat. She drives less than 20 miles a day, often less than 10. BUT still goes on the highway, so a "neighborhood EV" that is limited to 35mph streets isn't viable. I'll probably get a Nissan Leaf because there are so many used ones out there. I'll keep the internal combustion van for quite a while, because I do need to go on 200-700 mile per day drives several times a year for work and travel. I would really like it if there was a plug in hybrid option, because I also have a few days a week where I drive less than 25 miles. Flogging a dead horse; Ford makes a small 2.0l ecoboost engine that provides more HP and torque than the standard 3.7l that comes in the Transit. They also make a 2.5l that has MORE power. The 3.7l is more than adequate, so a 2.5l with plug-in hybrid technology would be ideal. However, domestic automakers know their clients, and domestic car buyers are very interested in excessive power and numerous cylinders in their vehicles, so it's doubtful Ford would go to the trouble to offer such a vehicle. But once gas hits $5/gallon in a year or so, and continues to rise, we may see people changing their opinions on fuel economy and cylinder numbers, like we did in the 70's.

NOT holding my breath to see what Tesla offers, it will be a passenger vehicle with a token pickup bed, like the Ridgeline or Escalade.
 
D

Deleted member 50714

Guest
I enjoy my Leaf, especially the oil change part.:lol:

"To get to work, the average commuter travels approximately 15 miles one way. Two out of three commuters (68 percent) reported a one-way commute of 15 miles or less, 22 percent traveled between 16 and 30 miles and 11 percent traveled more than 30 miles." USDOT.

Certainly, well within the range of the Leaf. For longer journeys, switch to the infernal combustion powered monstrosity a.k.a. Sprinter.:smirk:

https://www.rita.dot.gov/bts/sites/...s/omnistats/volume_03_issue_04/pdf/entire.pdf
 

lindenengineering

Well-known member
Yes its getting very close now and the race is on to 350 miles to a charge.
The next oil crisis will kill the ICE personal car for transport.
Dennis
 

surlyoldbill

Well-known member
Yes its getting very close now and the race is on to 350 miles to a charge.
The next oil crisis will kill the ICE personal car for transport.
Dennis
The correction in oil prices that's coming soon will bring the prices down on new and used vehicles that get worse than 20mpg, and the steady climb in prices with the few jumps from various crises will once again result in Americans buying more small foreign cars, mainly Asian. The domestic companies all offer economy cars, but only because CAFE standards, not because Americans are buying them.

It would be interesting if the CAFE standards were required to be met with CARS SOLD, not cars offered.

Another thing that would help extend the remain fossil fuels; allowing Kei cars in the USA.
 

lindenengineering

Well-known member
The correction in oil prices that's coming soon will bring the prices down on new and used vehicles that get worse than 20mpg, and the steady climb in prices with the few jumps from various crises will once again result in Americans buying more small foreign cars, mainly Asian. The domestic companies all offer economy cars, but only because CAFE standards, not because Americans are buying them.

It would be interesting if the CAFE standards were required to be met with CARS SOLD, not cars offered.

Another thing that would help extend the remain fossil fuels; allowing Kei cars in the USA.

It would be interesting if the CAFE standards were required to be met with CARS SOLD, not cars offered.

Well that would put the fat in the fire wouldn't it!:lol:
Dennis
 

icarus

Well-known member
I would like to agree with the above sentiments about the future decline and fall of ICE vehicles. The fact however, proven over and over again, is that the minute that fuel prices fall, buyers flock to large Pickups and SUVs like they are going out of style, and abandon efficient cars almost as fast. When fuel was (more) expensive getting a deal on a Prius was impossible, now they are cheap with incentives (relatively). Getting a Nissan Leaf off lease is the deal of the century, where as a few years ago there were waiting lists.

North Americans for what ever reason(s) simply like thier big vehicles!

Icarus
 

autostaretx

Erratic Member
https://www.eurekalert.org/pub_releases/2017-08/uoef-ssp083017.php
and
Lithium-ion batteries will get more efficiency due to silicon, germanium, carbon nanowalls

Members of the D. V. Skobeltsyn Institute of Nuclear Physics together with their colleagues from the Faculty of Chemistry of the Lomonosov Moscow State University have developed a new silicon- and germanium-based material that could significantly increase specific characteristics of lithium-ion batteries. The research results have been published in the Journal of Materials Chemistry A.

Lithium-ion batteries refer to the most popular type of energy storage systems, applied in modern electronic devices. Such batteries are composed of two electrodes - the negative (anode) and positive (cathode) ones, which are placed into a hermetic enclosure. The space in-between is filled with a porous separator, steeped in a lithium ion conductive electrolyte solution. The separator prevents short circuit between the bipolar electrodes and provides electrolyte volume, necessary for ion transport. Electric current in an external circuit is generated when lithium ions extract from the anode material and move through the electrolyte with further insertion into cathode material. However, specific capacity of a lithium-ion battery is largely defined by the number of lithium ions, which could be accepted and transfered by active materials both of the anode and cathode.

The scientists have developed and studied a new anode material, which allows energy efficiency of Li-ion batteries to be significantly increased. The material is suitable for utilization in both bulk and thin film Li-ion batteries.

Dr. Victor Krivchenko (PhD in Physics), a Senior Researcher at the Laboratory of Plasma Physics and Foundations of Micro-Technologies at the Department of Microelectronics at the D. V. Skobeltsyn Institute of Nuclear Physics, Lomonosov Moscow State University, and one of the article authors shares: " Much attention is currently given to elaboration of silicon (Si)- and germanium (Ge)-based anode materials. When interacting with lithium ions, these elements are capable of generating alloys, whose specific capacity, possible in theory, significantly exceeds the same one of graphite - the traditional anode material, used in modern lithium-ion batteries."

Among all known anode materials, silicon possesses the highest lithium gravimetric capacity, possible in theory, achieving up to 4200 mAh/g. This makes it the most promising material for batteries with improved energy density. Germanium is more expensive and has less gravimetric capacity than silicon. However, it's better in conducting current. Moreover, lithium ion diffusion inside germanium is several orders of magnitude faster than inside silicon. Such germanium's peculiarities provide substantial increase of battery power density without significant alteration of their volume.

The main problem of the electrode materials lies in the fact that their structure undergoes significantly degradation in the cyclic process of charging and discharging, resulting in battery failure. The scientists propose to solve this problem with the help of transition to nanostructured materials and development of composite materials, where various carbon nanostructures could be applied as stabilizing matrices. Transition from traditional two-dimensional to three-dimensional distribution of an active material on the electrode surface could be considered as an alternative solution.

Victor Krivchenko continues: "The main novelty of the project is the idea to use a matrix, formed by plasma grown carbon structures with very complex surface architecture, for implementation of silicon- and germanium-based anode materials with desired structural and functional properties. Such structures are composed of dense array of graphene-like nanowalls, vertically oriented to the surface of a metallic substrate."

The scientists have applied the magnetron sputtering technique, provided homogeneous coating of nanowall surfaces with 10-50 nm thick silicon or germanium layers. At the same time, the final structure of the composite anode could be composed of both one or alternating layers of active material. It was shown that the obtained three-dimensional architecture provides high specific capacity and increases stability of specific characteristics of silicon- and germanium-based anodes.

The scientist concludes: "The research results could technologically underpin further elaboration of promising electrode materials for the next generation energy storage systems. In the framework of the project, the scientists have achieved world-class results in the area of novel nanostructured material application, along with elaborating and studying their electrochemical and physicochemical properties. The conducted researches have provided with new experimental data, contributing to the theoretical knowledge, relating to nanostructure behavior in electrochemical systems."
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--dick
 

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