The Grand Tour
Banned
What maintenance difficulties are you talking about?
ETA for the gas engine?
- Thread starter The Grand Tour
- Start date
asimba2
ourkaravan.com
I think many Americans are still unaware of the valve deposits that form on direct injected engines. I personally wouldn't buy a GDI unless it had dual injection.
Increase your odds with https://www.toptiergas.com/
Boxster1971
2023 Sprinter 2500 144wb AWD
Oh - plenty of Americans are aware of this problem, just not those of us who drive diesel Sprinters.
This might help some.
https://www.sae.org/publications/technical-papers/content/2016-01-2252/
https://mbworld.org/forums/c-class-w204/430780-new-di-engines-excessive-carbon-buildup.html
Not a new problem but sure changes the desirability of the M274 gas engine over the diesels. Looks like it will require premium gasoline too. Just looked at the owner's manual for the Metris using this engine. The fuel restrictions sound worse that the diesel Sprinters. Copy of relevant paragraphs attached.
Attachments
Last I heard, it will take regular grade gasoline. Here's a Mercedes employee explaining it:
https://youtu.be/hJRv92TS31s?t=527 (starts at 8:48)
asimba2
ourkaravan.com
That statement wasn't aimed at you, but based on the comments I think a lot of people are under the [mis]understanding that a modern gas engine is simple and CEL-free compared to a diesel. You really have to pick your poison--if you're going to have a problem with a MB diesel it will likely be a NOX sensor or some other external exhaust sensor. With a modern high compression, turbocharged, variable valve-timed direct injection gas engine, your problems are going to be an internal. Specifically, gummed-up intake valves as a direct result of the GDI.Oh - plenty of Americans are aware of this problem, just not those of us who drive diesel Sprinters.
A friend had to have the heads pulled on his Ecoboost because it wouldn't pass smog, was running rough and had little power. Gummed up intake valves were the culprit. I think he paid close to $3k for that procedure. Ford no longer recommends walnut-shell blasting down the intake tract as they have documented numerous cases of broken-off pieces of carbon taking out the turbos downstream.
Gas or diesel, there seems to be no free lunch with modern engines.
On a separate note, diesels are direct injection too; why don't they have the intake valve deposit problems of the gas DI engines? Must be the fuel?
3.5 Ecoboost valve deposits:
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The Grand Tour
Banned
None of that stuff is a deterrent to buying the M274.
Those two pages you provided, say stuff like- don't put diesel in your gas engine. Don't put methanol in your gas engine. Don't use E85 in your gas engine. And if you use less octane, you'll make less power.
That's all pretty standard stuff.
The Grand Tour
Banned
I'm well aware of the issue.
I'm just not sure why he didn't just say that he was talking about deposits accumulating on the backsides of the intake valves of GDI engines, instead of saying "maintenance difficulties". I was beginning to wonder if he was having trouble locating his engine oil drain plug or something...
Diesel engines are direct-injected also, and the later model Sprinter V6 diesel has it's own typical areas of concern, so to me, trading those potential problems for the potential problems of the gas engine isn't a step backwards in and of itself. Either way, some people have problems, and some people don't. There is no clear-cut way to immunize yourself against all adverse aspects of vehicle ownership.
der.harleyman
New member
Things changed due to modern technology...
For many years a fuel with good additives was able to keep intake valves clean. But with direct injection (gdi) the valves have no contact with fuel at all. So gererally deposits can(!) occure.
It is a question of how to use the engine to decide if there are only a little or even more deposits. In a big car like the sprinter you will often rev the engine to get max power output. That helps to keep the valves clean. And I hope that you will bring the engine to its normal temperature.
Grandpa with his manual transmission, who keeps revs regularly below 3000rpm on his daily 1mile trip, might have issues with deposits.
I have seen many gdi engines the last years. It depends always on the operating conditions.
der.harleyman
New member
In the last years I had the chance to drive all the mentioned engines here in Germany.
The decision is not so difficult as it seems...
4 cyl gas
This should be your choice if you like a crispy van that revs fast. With the right ratio in rear axle the car runs nice. The 9speed trans is very fine and will help to keep engine revs always there, were you will expect them.
4 cyl diesel
This engine has nice torque. I was down to about 40mph in a c-class due to roadworks in 6th gear (man trans). When the autobahn was free again it took me nicely from 40mph at 1100rpm to 150mph without any shifting. Felt like having a big bungee in front of the car. Fuel consumption is very low (always dep. on driver
)
6 cyl diesel
This one is for the sprinter motor gourmet! Enough torque and power for nearly all purposes. This one is your choice to enjoy the drive, to pull your trailer with a smile on your face. The sound is nice too.
The m274 is a very reliable engine. It has no known diseases. Even fueled with compressed natural gas many e-class cabs / taxis use this engine in daily use here in Europe. I wouldn´t hesitate to buy a sprinter with this engine.
We are used to live with small engines here in Europe. Fuel is quite expensive over here.
For unleaded pemirum fuel I will pay about 1.5€ ~ 1.7$ today. I will get one liter (~one quart) of that fuel for my money. The sprinter with the 6 cyl gas engine is quite exotic here in Europe due to its higher fuel comsumption.
Best regards from over here...
The decision is not so difficult as it seems...
4 cyl gas
This should be your choice if you like a crispy van that revs fast. With the right ratio in rear axle the car runs nice. The 9speed trans is very fine and will help to keep engine revs always there, were you will expect them.
4 cyl diesel
This engine has nice torque. I was down to about 40mph in a c-class due to roadworks in 6th gear (man trans). When the autobahn was free again it took me nicely from 40mph at 1100rpm to 150mph without any shifting. Felt like having a big bungee in front of the car. Fuel consumption is very low (always dep. on driver
)6 cyl diesel
This one is for the sprinter motor gourmet! Enough torque and power for nearly all purposes. This one is your choice to enjoy the drive, to pull your trailer with a smile on your face. The sound is nice too.
The m274 is a very reliable engine. It has no known diseases. Even fueled with compressed natural gas many e-class cabs / taxis use this engine in daily use here in Europe. I wouldn´t hesitate to buy a sprinter with this engine.
We are used to live with small engines here in Europe. Fuel is quite expensive over here.
For unleaded pemirum fuel I will pay about 1.5€ ~ 1.7$ today. I will get one liter (~one quart) of that fuel for my money. The sprinter with the 6 cyl gas engine is quite exotic here in Europe due to its higher fuel comsumption.
Best regards from over here...
The Grand Tour
Banned
Thank you.In the last years I had the chance to drive all the mentioned engines here in Germany.
The decision is not so difficult as it seems...
4 cyl gas
This should be your choice if you like a crispy van that revs fast. With the right ratio in rear axle the car runs nice. The 9speed trans is very fine and will help to keep engine revs always there, were you will expect them.
4 cyl diesel
This engine has nice torque. I was down to about 40mph in a c-class due to roadworks in 6th gear (man trans). When the autobahn was free again it took me nicely from 40mph at 1100rpm to 150mph without any shifting. Felt like having a big bungee in front of the car. Fuel consumption is very low (always dep. on driver
6 cyl diesel
This one is for the sprinter motor gourmet! Enough torque and power for nearly all purposes. This one is your choice to enjoy the drive, to pull your trailer with a smile on your face. The sound is nice too.
The m274 is a very reliable engine. It has no known diseases. Even fueled with compressed natural gas many e-class cabs / taxis use this engine in daily use here in Europe. I wouldn´t hesitate to buy a sprinter with this engine.
We are used to live with small engines here in Europe. Fuel is quite expensive over here.
For unleaded pemirum fuel I will pay about 1.5€ ~ 1.7$ today. I will get one liter (~one quart) of that fuel for my money. The sprinter with the 6 cyl gas engine is quite exotic here in Europe due to its higher fuel comsumption.
Best regards from over here...
The diesel engine is a little bit harder sell over here in the U.S.- our diesel fuel is relatively inexpensive as compared to the rest of the world, but our gasoline is even more disproportionately inexpensive as compared to the rest of the world. That's one of the reasons why Americans tend to buy vehicles that are larger and/or not primarily designed for the task they are being used for- you would never see someone choosing a 6-wheel-drive one-ton turbodiesel 6-passenger quad-cab pickup with an automatic transmission being used for solo commuting on the highway in Europe, but many people do it here.
By the way, my wife and I have taken two amazing month-long Europe trips, visiting many beautiful places. May I ask where in Germany you are located?
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lindenengineering
Well-known member
Interesting series of comments
How may of you contributors to this thread have actually worked on GDi technology based engine and that includes diagnosis & repair ?
Dennis
How may of you contributors to this thread have actually worked on GDi technology based engine and that includes diagnosis & repair ?
Dennis
D
Deleted member 50714
Guest
I don't see any benefit to owning a diesel in California. Diesel taxed .20 cents more, B20 becoming more prevalent, exhaust gas after-treatment system complicated, prone to failure and expensive to repair negates any perceived benefits.
Boxster1971
2023 Sprinter 2500 144wb AWD
Dennis - I've never worked on a GDi or diesel engine. The last engine I worked on was my 1983 VW Scirocco. I'm certainly NOT up on the new engine technologies from a diagnosis & repair perspective.
Which would you buy in a 2500 Sprinter 144" if you had a choice?
The 3.0L V6 Turbo Diesel with 7-speed transmission
... or 2.0L 4-Cylinder Turbo Gasoline with 9-speed transmission.
The Grand Tour
Banned
Yes, I was recently doing the math on making a run down to Sandy Eggo to pick up a couple of motorcycles, using a 28' 5th wheel race trailer behind a Duramax-powered crew-cab dually, and was quite surprised to learn that diesel is four bucks a gallon in the PRK.
D
Deleted member 50714
Guest
NOOOO...and fortunately won't ever have to.
D
Deleted member 50714
Guest
Same question here?
lindenengineering
Well-known member
Well first we need to understand what MB is trying to achieve with this new engine generation.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UdmGHKI2z4U
I have included the VW/Audi engine valve train arrangement which is very similar
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I5dy2Vnf95w
To understand the advantages its best to compare it with Fiat's Multi Air which achieves the same objective using a revolutionary hydro/electronics control animation is good at getting a grasp on what is being achieved in the industry.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BK3CLMr8qwg
Take a look at these innovations firest.
Dennis
der.harleyman
New member
I have, since the introduction of these gdi engines!
I work as a technical advisor (don´t know if the translation is correct!)
for car repair shops for many years now. I know the M274 from its first days very well.
I would be glad to buy my future sprinter with this engine! Unfortunately here in Germany you can´t buy a Sprinter with this engine.
To explain the difference for those interested of you. Driving a light truck like a 2500 with gasoline over here can become quite expensive. Moving a heavy vehicle with a diesel is cheaper, as you can expect more mpg with a diesel. With higher prices for gasoline and less mpg most people will rather choose the diesel here. With lower prices for gasoline like you lucky guys have in the states, I probably would prefer the gdi engine.
Please don´t expect an engine like some of your nice v8! With a turbocharged 4cyl you´ll have a different type of engine. Compare the values of torque @ rpm and you will get a feel for it.
My decision between the 4 cyl gasoline or the 6cyl diesel? Hard to say... There are two souls inside my breast.
Due to the lower price for diesel fuel here in German prob the diesel.
But in the states I would prefer the 4 cyl gasoline i suppose. Together with the 9ps trans it should run really fine in the Sprinter. The gasoline is quieter inside the car. And it is powerful enough for the Sprinter.
Planing to pull your heavy trailer frequently? Take the 6 cyl. Then you will enjoy the torque of the diesel...
@ The Grand Tour: well, I know (and enjoy) the kind of cars you like in the states! With a Ram1500 my wife bought some years ago, we have a little bit of that even here at home. Just for fun of course! But still very exotic on german streets! To make that fun affordable the truck with its 5.7L hemi is converted to lpg (liquid petrol gas). That helps to reduce the costs to at least ~60%. We live in little suburban of Berlin. My wife and I had the pleasure of learning to love your country many times. We´ve visited and seen many of your lovely states.
Regards
lindenengineering
Well-known member
Ah ha
Now I have the first fellow Euro contributor that probably (like me was) under the impression that the mantra "IF IT WORKS HERE IT WILL WORK IN YANKEE LAND"
Of course it doesn't and the first is that octane equivalent in Europe are different but the biggest difference is the use of ethanol blends in US fuel.
Only Brazil does this outside the USA.
Consequently deposits form in engine often requiring upper cylinder purges every 30,000 miles.
Something to consider first.
Dennis
Now I have the first fellow Euro contributor that probably (like me was) under the impression that the mantra "IF IT WORKS HERE IT WILL WORK IN YANKEE LAND"
Of course it doesn't and the first is that octane equivalent in Europe are different but the biggest difference is the use of ethanol blends in US fuel.
Only Brazil does this outside the USA.
Consequently deposits form in engine often requiring upper cylinder purges every 30,000 miles.
Something to consider first.
Dennis