Engine overview Gasoline Promaster

oilhammer

Member
Very reasonable, makes for a decent fleet maint cost.
Haha, I should send a copy of this post to the fleet managers. They have a VERY different opinion on that. Considering some of these turds blow up after only 80k miles.

The engine is $4870 list price, and it is 14.7 hr labor to install it.

At our shop, with fluids, etc., that is about $7000 out the door. That is AWFUL economics. No fleet expects to pay that much at once to keep a vehicle going to 100k miles. Their buttholes pucker at a set of tires!
 

lindenengineering

Well-known member
Haha, I should send a copy of this post to the fleet managers. They have a VERY different opinion on that. Considering some of these turds blow up after only 80k miles.

The engine is $4870 list price, and it is 14.7 hr labor to install it.

At our shop, with fluids, etc., that is about $7000 out the door. That is AWFUL economics. No fleet expects to pay that much at once to keep a vehicle going to 100k miles. Their buttholes pucker at a set of tires!
Oh yeh
They don't last too well in the hands of careless drivers!:thumbup::thumbdown::idunno:
Brakes are the big issue--but heads, valves and driving it till it bursts is the order of the day in fleet work!
Dennis
 

lindenengineering

Well-known member
Here's some even more sadder or expensive news.

A guy I know bought a Ram Promaster diesel in the local auction with a bit of non apparent consequential damage to the grill etc.! A fixer upper~!
Asking if he had ever started it ?
I got a No!
My instant reaction was Well after a month sitting in your yard you had better try it !
So he did!--And there was big gurgling sound coming out of the cooling system and it wouldn't start.
Yes looks like it was driven to destruction! Mitsupuzzy is not purring! Oh Lor!:lol:
That's why it was at the auction!

How much you are into this POS for? --TEN big Uns! Jeez!:thumbdown:
Its going back to the auction tomorrow & lets hope I don't take a bath on it!


Well you wish!
Oh well its only money!:lol:
Dennis
 

RB7

Member
Dennis,


If I remember correctly, Chrysler finally fixed the valve seat problem with the 2016 models. Is this not so? Chrysler has bet the farm on this engine. It's in EVERYTHING they make. They oughtta be all over that engine making it a good one.
I use Chevron 5/30 conventional in my wife's Town and Country Pentastar and change it out at 5000 miles. Though I believe it meets Chrysler's specs, you think I should be running a "Euro" type oil? How would that affect reliability? Not trying to start something but just trying to understand why I maybe should switch. PS That oil filter is sooo Mercedes and a pain in the arse compared to a spin-on one. Isn't the engine a Mercedes design from the days of Daimler Chrysler? I think its a great running engine. It's funny to see a tweaked version of it in my buddy's Maserati!
 

lindenengineering

Well-known member
Dennis,


If I remember correctly, Chrysler finally fixed the valve seat problem with the 2016 models. Is this not so? Chrysler has bet the farm on this engine. It's in EVERYTHING they make. They oughtta be all over that engine making it a good one.
I use Chevron 5/30 conventional in my wife's Town and Country Pentastar and change it out at 5000 miles. Though I believe it meets Chrysler's specs, you think I should be running a "Euro" type oil? How would that affect reliability? Not trying to start something but just trying to understand why I maybe should switch. PS That oil filter is sooo Mercedes and a pain in the arse compared to a spin-on one. Isn't the engine a Mercedes design from the days of Daimler Chrysler? I think its a great running engine. It's funny to see a tweaked version of it in my buddy's Maserati!
Yes they have supposedly fixed it and given the heads a 150,000 mile warranty.
Yes it's their main production line engine for all models save few!

The guys in the trade who deal with these vans alot say that in their opinion using a Euro style oil would be beneficial. I have no opinion either way.
I see Jeeps with 150K on them running on good regular of the shelf oil, so time will tell!
Yes the engine is an MB cast off and of course has its traditional MB architectural features about it.
Yes Le Maserati uses the engine as well.
Surprised me a bit when I lifted the hood but getting an engine from design conception to pre prod model is hugely knee wobbling expensive so I can see why it was used & rational behind it all.
Cheers Dennis,
 

oilhammer

Member
The Pentastar is all Chrysler, it has absolutely nothing to do with any MB design V6, not even close.

Aside from the head issue, they still have valve issues, and they still have issues with the variable oil pump system, that often means replacement of the oil pump which depending on application can be a real pain in the butt to get the oil pan off.

We also put a lot of catalysts on them, and those are a pain too due to the ignorantly stupid way they attach the catalyst to the heads, and the fact that on transverse applications there is no flex section to the Y-pipe underneath, which means you really have to fight to get them replaced.

The other thing we've been seeing a lot lately on them is the oil filter valve (inside the housing) that breaks and falls apart. The aftermarket thankfully sells these, as Chrysler makes you buy the whole filter/cooler housing that goes under the intake manifold.
 

lindenengineering

Well-known member
The Pentastar is all Chrysler, it has absolutely nothing to do with any MB design V6, not even close.

Aside from the head issue, they still have valve issues, and they still have issues with the variable oil pump system, that often means replacement of the oil pump which depending on application can be a real pain in the butt to get the oil pan off.

We also put a lot of catalysts on them, and those are a pain too due to the ignorantly stupid way they attach the catalyst to the heads, and the fact that on transverse applications there is no flex section to the Y-pipe underneath, which means you really have to fight to get them replaced.

The other thing we've been seeing a lot lately on them is the oil filter valve (inside the housing) that breaks and falls apart. The aftermarket thankfully sells these, as Chrysler makes you buy the whole filter/cooler housing that goes under the intake manifold.
Yes the cat attachment is a lovely wonder!
In fleets if you have a driver who ignores the CEL for misfire it takes the Cats out in a heartbeat!
As for the connection with MB my info from MB UK takes a slightly different path since it is based upon the M276 engine. All developed when Chrysler and MB were under the same roof so to speak.The MB were developing a version in one area and Chrysler in another with cross operation.
It's just that Chrysler ran with it and developed their own version hence the similarities in architecture .
Notably the use of a 60 degree V config instead of a 90 degree preference due to the need fr balance shafts on earlier engines. The basic issue for European manufacturers is the sulphur content of fuel which is higher in the NAS markets. Some departure was needed to accommodate this issue just by itself.
Dennis
 

oilhammer

Member
Most every V6 engine that was designed as a V6 has a 60 degree arrangement. V8s are generally 90 degrees, and thus most 90 degree V6s are that way because they are sprung from the existing architecture from a V8. And thus, in order to be better balanced, they have to employ a single balance shaft with two weights to mimic those two missing pistons from the rotating assembly. If they do not, they are not as smooth.

The most commonly known (in this country anyway) of 90 degree V6s sprung from existing V8 designs were from Detroit. GM (Chevrolet, Buick, and Oldsmobile) did this, with the later Chevrolet (4.3L...sprung from the 5.7L V8) and Buick (3.8L sprung from the old early 1960s aluminum Buick V8.... the one they sold to Rover) V6s eventually getting the balance shaft. The Oldsmobile V6 was actually a diesel, of 4.3L displacement, sprung from their 5.7L diesel V8. Lots of folks don't even remember they built a V6 version, but they did. Usually stuffed sideways in an A-body Buick or Oldsmobile. All of GM's other V6s are 60 degree, although I am unsure about the old giant GMC V6.

Ford had taken the 5.0L Windsor family V8 and made first a 3.8L V6 and later a 4.2L V6, with the later transverse 3.8L applications and all 4.2L applications getting the balance shaft. All Ford's other V6s, the Duratec, Cyclone, Nano, Vulcan, are 60 degree.

Chrysler chopped two cylinders off their 5.2L V8, making the 3.9L V6 (which replaced the 3.7L "Slant" 6), but never did grace that engine with a balance shaft. Chrysler's "Powertech" engines, the 3.7L V6 and 4.7L V8, both 90 degree, are based on the same architecture. The 3.7L does get a balance shaft. The rest of Chrysler's V6s, including those sourced from Mitsubishi, are 60 degree.

Toyota's V6s, the original VZ series, the MZ series, and the still in use GR series, are all 60 degree. Nissans original VG series and the replacement VQ series and its derivative, the VR series, are also all 60 degree.

VAG's V6 is 90 degrees, and shares some design elements with their V8s, but their V6s do not have a balance shaft. They also have their VR engines, which are narrow angle, 15 or 10.5 degrees, and are really more closely laid out like an inline engine, with the cylinders squished and staggered together.

Honda has had both 90 and 60 degree V6s.

You can make a moderate displacement 90 degree V6s reasonably smooth if the crank throws are offset properly to make the power hits even. Honda probably did the best with that on their early V6s, but probably due to packaging eventually went to the narrower and more compact 60 degree layout they still use to this day.
 
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asimba2

ourkaravan.com
Interesting stuff oilhammer! I'm sad to see the Inline-6s disappear...the DOHC intercooled/turbocharged I-6 in my Toyota Supra was the smoothest-running engine I ever had. I had an early Acura Legend with the 2.5 DOHC V6 that was a real sweetheart too, despite not having the inherently balanced architecture of the I6.
 

oilhammer

Member
Inline 6 engines are pretty smooth and well balanced by default, yes. But they are difficult to package. BMW is a holdout for I6s and has not yet caved to V6s, but I think most of their I6s have been replaced by turbo I4s or V8s. :frown:

Volvo was able to swing an I6 sideways in some models, as was Daewoo (sold here as the Suzuki Forenza), but are seemingly otherwise limited to longitudinal RWD configurations.

I have a 1996 F150, last of its kind, with the standard 4.9L I6. Beast of an engine, but tough.
 

flman

Roadrunner, Genius of Birds ALWAYS WINS! NO FAILS!
What about the VR6, my son had one, I don't recall it being very smooth? Since you are a VW enthusiast Oilhammer, what is your take on that engine?
 

lindenengineering

Well-known member
I am trying to understand what this has to do with vans and engine longevity?
Plus reduced operating costs over the life of the vehicle.

One thing to take into account with any of these PU's is the Ford and the GM have to have the cabs lifted to do any serious engine work.
So I have some numbers but they are more sobering!
Hence any severe job adds a ticket tariff of 12 to 20 hours depending upon model just to start the actual repair job!
Hence its a $3000 ticket just to get at it!
I see owners go wobbly kneed at the prospect of a serious engine repair.
That's why I like these vehicles!
I see lovely green money to the bank!

The Cummins Dodge is the exception, relatively speaking .
Now the Sprinter a (van of course) has an engine R'n'R of just 12 hours.
The engine is cheaper too!
Dennis
 

flman

Roadrunner, Genius of Birds ALWAYS WINS! NO FAILS!
I am trying to understand what this has to do with vans and engine longevity?
Plus reduced operating costs over the life of the vehicle.

One thing to take into account with any of these PU's is the Ford and the GM have to have the cabs lifted to do any serious engine work.
So I have some numbers but they are more sobering!
Hence any severe job adds a ticket tariff of 12 to 20 hours depending upon model just to start the actual repair job!
Hence its a $3000 ticket just to get at it!
I see owners go wobbly kneed at the prospect of a serious engine repair.
That's why I like these vehicles!
I see lovely green money to the bank!

The Cummins Dodge is the exception, relatively speaking .
Now the Sprinter a (van of course) has an engine R'n'R of just 12 hours.
The engine is cheaper too!
Dennis
More stuff that has nothing to do with vans and engine longevity. :whistle:

5 year lease, and 5 year power train warranty = "I am not worried about lifting the cab."

So tell me what procedure would require the removal of the cab to repair the 2.7 Ecoboost?

I know some procedures on the diesel require it, but what on the gasser?
 

lindenengineering

Well-known member
More stuff that has nothing to do with vans and engine longevity. :whistle:

5 year lease, and 5 year power train warranty = "I am not worried about lifting the cab."

So tell me what procedure would require the removal of the cab to repair the 2.7 Ecoboost?

I know some procedures on the diesel require it, but what on the gasser?
Again to reiterate are we talking about vans here or Pick Up trucks?
The twin turbo 3.2 eco boost, its a cab up to do major work.

I was under the impression the thread was originally about the Dodge Ram Promaster van and associated matters of VANS.!:thinking:

Then you post a youtube film with grown men acting like my teenage sons drag racing pick up trucks.
OK all very impressionable, but not real life on the work/job site hauling stuff or pulling a horse trailer with valuable blood stock in it!

If we are talking about doing ,major work on the popular domestic PU's found in North America & shown in your post then the cab often has to come up to fix the engine as i have mentioned.

The vans are a different kettle of fish, but you haven't specified which vehicule !
In any case your quote of 5 years powertrain warranty is about average for the business., however usually Ford has a 3 year 36,000 mile standard warranty or for 60,000 miles.
Since you have leased it what is the residual value likely to be at the end of the lease or buy terms ?
Has fORD quoted that to you since leased vehicles are often/ usually 110% of MSRP
Dennis
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