Another wiring diagram from a noob....

bored

Well-known member
I ordered my panels yesterday.

Here is the wiring diagram to the fuse boxes. Still undecided on the controller. I was going to do a victron 100/30 controller but now I am a bit concerned it may be to small.

I will have other questions but here is where I am at.
 

Attachments

hein

Van Guru
Diagram is a great start. Thank you for posting. Next step would be to show positive and negative cables and wires. If I understand correctly, the ground connection shown at the Maxibus would by-pass your shunt.

A breaker panel (where you show 'fuse box A/C') would the first thing on the AC output side of your inverter. Then any switches and/or loads after that.

We have had great success with the Kisae DMT-1250 DC-to-DC charger. It is a 50A charger that accepts input from alternator and is also an MPPT solar controller. Contact Kim for special pricing.

A shore power breaker is also recommended. 15A (1800 watts) or 20A (2400 watts) is sufficient for most vans. We make a pre-wired breaker box for that purpose. Take a look at SmartPlug for your shore power connection. They actually make a 16A version but I haven't found it widely available.

All the best,
Hein
DIYvan
541 490 5098
 
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bored

Well-known member
Regarding Battery to Battery...

My intention is to use a Sterling BB1260-12 Volt battery to battery charger...

I am still not sure if the stock alternator will be enough but was hoping that I could use the stock one till it fails and then upgrade to a more powerful one.

I am also hoping to either find dual alternator bracket. But something tells me its a unicorn and either doesn't exist or impossible to find.
 

bored

Well-known member
Diagram is a great start. Thank you for posting. Next step would be to show positive and negative cables and wires. If I understand correctly, the ground connection shown at the Maxibus would by-pass your shunt.
DIYvan
541 490 5098
Hein

Thank you for the response.....

My goal right now it to make sure I have included all the components. Then I want to purchase the components and then start installing them.

After everything is installed I will upload a wiring diagram with Wire Size and Length just to make sure everything is correct before wiring everything up.
 

HarryN

Well-known member
I have a small shop in Livermore. Happy to kick around ideas on van electrical systems if you like.

We have tons of parts and tools. Could even do a joint project if you like. Word of warning, I view us as an electrical performance shop, not a "good enough for grandma" shop.
 

bored

Well-known member
I have a small shop in Livermore. Happy to kick around ideas on van electrical systems if you like.

We have tons of parts and tools. Could even do a joint project if you like. Word of warning, I view us as an electrical performance shop, not a "good enough for grandma" shop.
Hey Harry,

Two things...

One I am way over budget on this build and I still have to buy....

Controller
Battery to Battery Charger
and Batteries and some misc things...

I considered using you for all the electrical early on but then I decided because I wanted to understand how this all works because I plan on working in very remote locations and knowing the ins and outs might save my life sometime.

I will reach out for sure when needed.
 

HarryN

Well-known member
Hey Harry,

Two things...

One I am way over budget on this build and I still have to buy....

Controller
Battery to Battery Charger
and Batteries and some misc things...

I considered using you for all the electrical early on but then I decided because I wanted to understand how this all works because I plan on working in very remote locations and knowing the ins and outs might save my life sometime.

I will reach out for sure when needed.
No problem.

For better or worse, the customers learn more about their systems and how they work than they even want to. Just ask my family.

Not everything costs money. I helped a couple from Switzerland on a vacation trip. Charged them a beer. Some of this is my idea of a social life.

At the same time, I can't really enhance something that is already built.
 

HarryN

Well-known member
Maybe split the panels into 2 arrays and use a pair of midnight solar brats.

All in parallel. Redundancy.
 

bored

Well-known member
I have been reading about controllers...

Spent some time here

Everyone seems to have opinions as to which controller is best.

I am considering a Morningstar TS-60 Tristar-60 Amp. Victron seems tried and true so I am still torn.

What would be the advantages and disadvantage of splitting the panels?
 

HarryN

Well-known member
I have been reading about controllers...

Spent some time here

Everyone seems to have opinions as to which controller is best.

I am considering a Morningstar TS-60 Tristar-60 Amp. Victron seems tried and true so I am still torn.

What would be the advantages and disadvantage of splitting the panels?

There will always be a variety of options and opinions on the "perfect" solar controller and setup. That is probably a good thing, as sometimes the package / shape matter just as much as the electronic performance.

Here is the logic behind my suggestion:

Wire
- In house, I am very completely set up to make high quality, 10 and 14 awg wire. with terminations.
- I buy these in rolls and have multiple colors for grounds, hot, neutral, 12, 24 and 48 volts. That way everything is color coded and easy to follow, even without a diagram.
- All of the wires that go to a bus bar are color coded the same - so pretty easy to work on
- I have the same tools for a field kit as in the shop, and always have some 10 and 14 awg wire with me.
- In house we use mil spec 10 awg wire, and for customers, there is nearly always some kind of 10 awg stranded wire available in the average random hardware store. Worst case, a field repair can be done with less than optimal wire.
- It is easy to bend and run through a variety of locations
- if it is too long, I can trim it to length on the spot.
- 10 awg wire can handle 30 amps readily, but I usually try to run it at 10 - 20 amps

All larger wire sizes that are needed are purchased. The delivery is pretty fast (less than 3 days) but if we can make the wire in-house, it can be ready in less than 30 minutes, including the heat shrink on the terminals.

- I can teach pretty much anyone to make high quality, 10 awg wire with the in - house tools in less than 4 hours. My part time college student helpers can do this while I keep working on other stuff.
- A 10 awg wire, with a controlled crimp on terminal - is strong enough to lift most people. The odds of a failure due to wire pull out in a conversion van is very low.

Using this approach, I can build the bulk of a system with 10 awg and only the main wires to the inverter related path need to be planned, purchased and stocked.
It isn't a matter of cost, it is a matter of "time to complete a project".

So - bottom line - if there is a way to do things with 10 awg wire, that is how I will try to do it.
 
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HarryN

Well-known member
I have been reading about controllers...

Spent some time here

Everyone seems to have opinions as to which controller is best.

I am considering a Morningstar TS-60 Tristar-60 Amp. Victron seems tried and true so I am still torn.

What would be the advantages and disadvantage of splitting the panels?
So - using my comments about wire size in the prior post:

Option a)

- Run the panels in series
- Buy a controller designed for 600 watts or so.
- In a perfect world, perhaps a controller with a bit more headroom - even 800 watts
- Use 10 awg PV wire down to the controller, since the currents are ~ 10 amps
- Controller to battery wire has has to be able to handle 600 + watts @ 12 volts ~ 50 - 60 amps

If your plans are pacific north west, ,then perhaps count on 1/2 of this much power.

If your plans are New Mexico high plains, then power performance can be substantial.

The controller needs start to push something pretty large - like a midnight solar classic or another large controller like the ones that you mentioned.

- This is probably the most efficient solar to battery charging approach when things are perfect.
- It is also good for poor light conditions because it will usually create at least some power even in dismal light
- It is the most susceptible to failing completely from a single point failure mode. (panel breaks, controller goes down, fuse, etc)

Option B)
- Run the panels in parallel
- AFAIK, if you do it this way, the panels are all supposed to be wired to a combiner box on the van roof, and then a large wire down to the controller
- Kind of an expensive approach, but simple
- With 600 watts of panels on the roof - my guess is that it is pretty full up there already and adding a combiner box might be painful
- There won't be all that much voltage headroom by the time you get to the controller, so it really forces a PWM controller path. Possibly multiple in parallel.

- More wire required
- Resistant to a single panel failure
- Requires several large wires
- Efficiency will vary depending on location

Option c)

Break it into 2 independent arrays
- For example, 2P in each array, or 2S in each array - whatever you think is right for you
- Solar controller for each array
- Now you can use 10 awg wire all the way through from the panels - controller - bus bar.
- Complete redundancy and identical spare parts. If needed, you can borrow parts from one array to keep the other operational in the middle of nowhere.

In all approaches there are benefits and limitations. Any of these approaches can work.
 

HarryN

Well-known member
Hey Harry,

Two things...

One I am way over budget on this build and I still have to buy....

Controller
Battery to Battery Charger
and Batteries and some misc things...

I considered using you for all the electrical early on but then I decided because I wanted to understand how this all works because I plan on working in very remote locations and knowing the ins and outs might save my life sometime.

I will reach out for sure when needed.
It is unfortunate that we missed the opportunity to work together on the project at an earlier stage.

My primary interest is in selling the packaged products, but they can be adjusted to fit the end goals.

Installing solar and the rest of the van wiring is really sort of a sideline. I help people to do it themselves, mostly as a way to encourage system sales. I strongly encourage the customer to take charge of those aspects and help as "An assistant who happens to own a bunch of parts and tools and has done it before".

Sort of like having your cousin help you build a shed.

_____________

For people who want to build their own system, there actually is an option on our web store. It is called a "Kit N Build".
- Basically it is like buying a model air plane kit.
- The tools to build it are too expensive for most people to own, so the idea is that it is built at our shop by you and we help to whatever level is required.
- Some Burning Man enthusiast somehow convinced me that this was a great idea, so I reluctantly agreed to offer it.
- My only requirements are safety related - Have to be sober while working and wear shoes that cover your entire foot.
- So far, not a single person has done it so I am not sure if it is a good idea or not.
 
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bored

Well-known member
Wire
- In house, I am very completely set up to make high quality, 10 and 14 awg wire. with terminations.
Well I have large rolls of Marine 10 AWG wire so that would work from the perspective.

So - using my comments about wire size in the prior post:

- Buy a controller designed for 600 watts or so.
- In a perfect world, perhaps a controller with a bit more headroom - even 800 watts
- If your plans are pacific north west, ,then perhaps count on 1/2 of this much power.

In all approaches there are benefits and limitations. Any of these approaches can work.
I think running the system in Series works best for me.

I went with 600 watt because even though the panels are 660 I assumed a 10% loss 600 watt would be plenty. I will look at 800 watt options.

Really 1/2 in California? I plan on traveling all over the Americas though. My appliances were selected carefully and flexible. I also plan on having a Propane Gen for emergencies.

I think I am prepared for everything EXCEPT 100+ degree weather which I don't plan on spending much time in those climates.

It is unfortunate that we missed the opportunity to work together on the project at an earlier stage.
I have been considering doing this for 10 years but life gets in the way. I was considering buying a rialta after having a eurovan camper for many years.

Sadly I was over budget and its taken longer then expected.

The good news is its exactly the way I wanted it.
 

OrioN

2008 2500 170" EXT
I went with 600 watt because even though the panels are 660 I assumed a 10% loss 600 watt would be plenty. I will look at 800 watt options.
There is no loss in 'ratings watts'. If there was, they'd be 600 watt panels. :smilewink:

The rating standard STC (STC is the Standard Test Condition) is based on a specific temperature of 25C. So, at -15C depending on your panels type they could be 10% higher or 725 watts. To maximize your harvesting look for a controller @800W input.



https://www.civicsolar.com/article/how-does-heat-affect-solar-panel-efficiencies
 

bored

Well-known member
This is great to hear.

Somewhere I read that after testing solar panels the efficiency is actually 10-15% less then advertised so I used that number in spread sheets. You can't have to much power so that is a good thing.

There is no loss in 'ratings watts'. If there was, they'd be 600 watt panels. :smilewink:

The rating standard STC (STC is the Standard Test Condition) is based on a specific temperature of 25C. So, at -15C depending on your panels type they could be 10% higher or 725 watts. To maximize your harvesting look for a controller @800W input.

https://www.civicsolar.com/article/how-does-heat-affect-solar-panel-efficiencies
 

OrioN

2008 2500 170" EXT
This is great to hear.

Somewhere I read that after testing solar panels the efficiency is actually 10-15% less then advertised so I used that number in spread sheets. You can't have to much power so that is a good thing.
Never use an end-users test results, which pretty much equates to 'opinion'.
 

bored

Well-known member
Never use an end-users test results, which pretty much equates to 'opinion'.
Ha. You are a glass half full kinda person. :hmmm:

I always say the manufactures numbers is simply commercialism. I am a glass half empty guy and the water is evaporating.

I will trust your expertise though.
 

HarryN

Well-known member
The challenge for planning a electrical budget in a van is that there is relatively limited ability to average solar charging over an extended period of time.

If you have a large LiFe battery bank and a generator back up (Orion for example) this averaging concept can work.

Look at the weather in the SF bay area this past week. Typical SF bay area weather for winter - multiple days of heavy overcast.

Your battery bank is very decent, but still not "large".

For winter time use energy budget planning in this area, I use the following formula as an estimate:

(panel rated capacity ) x (50%) x (6 hrs / day) = approximate power generated each day.

It isn't a perfect estimate, but it isn't terrible either.
 

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