Lithium House Battery Replacement in 2019

jostalli said:

Same specs as the Relion. Has a 100W heat film that is wrapped around the cells. The BMS triggers the heating element only when it senses a charge and the temperatures meet the temperature range for activation. It takes power from the charge source rather than the battery.

I am an installer. We have two builds with these batteries and two scheduled so far. PM me if you want one.

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Hi Joe,
I saw your posting.

I just bought a used 2016 Airstream Interstate Grandtour (3500 Sprinter based Class B) I believe I have the factory (2) 80 ah AGM batteries and a 100w flex solar panel. I would like greater storage capacity. Can you please give me a quote for a lithium conversion- I think I need a MMPT solar controller, shunt meter, and 200-250 ah LI batteries
and 2 more solar panels. I live in LA and would need to come visit you. I have aflexible schedule and would like to get it finished in May.
Thank you., Glen
310-890-7700

Calling you now

I'm a DIY'er on a Promaster conversion but I'm curious about other campers out there...and the WGO Revel begs a question, specifically on subbing out the OEM AGMs for lithiums. I understand the fear of cold weather/freezing temps and realize on the Revel the batteries are suspended under the van and outside the normally heated inside airspace.....so has anyone considered cutting into/splicing the diesel heated hydronic tubes already under the Revel (for the holding tanks and water storage) and passing them around the battery compartment?
I ask because I've a year into a sub out with BattleBorns and have been completely pleased with them....but in our build they are in the heated inside space.
I know energy expenditure is always a concern in these small campers but surely the Espar is very frugal with its electrical demand and the pump that circulates the heated glycol solution can't be too 'expensive' to run.
Maybe it is believed that the circulating fluid would not be enough to keep the insulated suspended battery box above freezing?
Just curious

sketchbook said:

for what it's worth I am also researching for a house battery and this brand (RELiON) has been used by a fairly local upfitter and they seem to love them.

They so sell a couple models for just over 1k which allow for lower temperature charging. Like this one: https://relionbattery.com/products/...ZG4rem7-jinRTwCWZv3RUHSeYkfQCc6UaAu9SEALw_wcB

Another local upfitter told me to steel clear of LiFePO4 as the tech is too new and there are too many issues with them. They refuse to install them for electrical systems.

Tough to decide as someone who really doesn't know much in terms of batteries.

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How can you go wrong with a 10 year warranty? Most AGM's come with a 1 year warranty.

The question is if the company will be around in 10 years.

"Battle Born Batteries offers a 10 year manufacturers defect warranty from the date of purchase. This warranty does not cover negligence or misuse of the battery. If it is deemed that battery was used improperly, you will be subject to a $150 an hour repair charge plus parts and shipping."

https://battlebornbatteries.com/terms-conditions/

This is a good company. Watch all the interviews with the founders on the YouTubes. Just a few guys who have been around long enough to see that a solution was needed. They are not cheap up-front, but like buying an electric car, if you take the total cost of ownership into account they are a very inexpensive option. The advantage of the BBs is they are actually drop-in replacements. A lot of lithiums say that but then require all these support structures, like building a space for them inside.

There are options for the BBs that you don't need for AGMs like heating pads for travel in below-freezing conditions, and if they are drained to exhaustion will need to be reset to wake up again and charge, but all lithiums have this issue. What makes the BBs stand head and shoulders above the others is their ability to be used in conditions below freezing, including used to run the heating pad, while the battery is refusing to TAKE charging energy from the alternator or solar until the batteries are warmed up and ready.

Attempting to charge a lithium battery below a certain temp can permanently damage it. Most lithiums simply disconnect below freezing, but that means no furnace for you either, brrrrr! Battleborn even hints that a coming redesign should make the heating pads obsolete. I imagine that means when the battery sees charging energy but the cells are below ~25°F, the energy is redirected into an internal heating pad until the cells heat up enough to charge, that would be clever. But I could be wrong about their future solution.

The company is actually growing very fast because of their warranty. People trust them, I have been very impressed with their build and testing solutions. I am seriously thinking about getting a pair for my RV as the battery bay is out in an exposed metal compartment. I don't see a way to heat it, and it would be a waste of space to mount the batteries inside, so worth the extra expense.

There are other options. I have learned a lot from the youtube channel https://www.youtube.com/user/errolprowse and others about building your own battery from cells. In a recent episode, he bought battery cells and spoke about how cheap it would be to build a 12 or 24v system out of them. With 2000-5000 charge cycles a lithium battery is likely the LAST battery your RV will ever need.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Di2o7an-WJw"

Israndy you said 'but that means no furnace for you either', yet BattleBorn says that you can't charge their lithiums below freezing but you can certainly draw from them.
Thoughts?

The majority of drop in lithium batteries I have seen have a low temp charging cut off. As long as you aren't attempting to charge them below this temp they will still deliver power (no bms disconnect). Note that at low temps the delivered capacity will be significantly lower than rated.

MedicineMan4040 said:

Israndy you said 'but that means no furnace for you either', yet BattleBorn says that you can't charge their lithiums below freezing but you can certainly draw from them.
Thoughts?

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What you are quoting was what I said about the rest of the field. That is the advantage of the BBs over the rest, currently. I am trying to build a pack out of cheap 180ah cells, and looking everywhere for a BMS that has that capability, but it seems BB did their own custom unit.

Another thing that people don't seem to be talking about is how much power Lithium batteries will draw from your alternator. It's nice that they charge back up so quickly, but it may be bad for your alternator if it doesn't have thermal protection.

boldly.design said:

If the Lifeline has worked fine for your needs, you'd definitely be much better off sticking with AGM and just replacing it.

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That’s pretty much what I am thinking about my situation (older 448 ah AGM’s). But only a suspicion. Your rationale for this advice?

israndy said:

What you are quoting was what I said about the rest of the field. That is the advantage of the BBs over the rest, currently. I am trying to build a pack out of cheap 180ah cells, and looking everywhere for a BMS that has that capability, but it seems BB did their own custom unit.

Another thing that people don't seem to be talking about is how much power Lithium batteries will draw from your alternator. It's nice that they charge back up so quickly, but it may be bad for your alternator if it doesn't have thermal protection.

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Part of what you are running into is that some of the higher end BMS builders either merged their business with battery suppliers, or were bought out and brought on -board.

There were some really good, experienced people in that business area and many (not all) were bought out for the EV market. As you are seeing, managing the entire charge control process is not so simple.

On the alternator charging front, it can go both ways. The alternator can supply too much current and exceed the C/2 charge rate goal, or the battery pack can behave like a black hole and suck the alternator dry.

That is the benefit of active charge control - and unfortunately it isn't all that cheap.

Outlookela said:

That’s pretty much what I am thinking about my situation (older 448 ah AGM’s). But only a suspicion. Your rationale for this advice?

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This might be overly simplistic, but I take a cautionary approach.

Will you be able to maintain the LiFe battery at 10 C or more, 100% of the time, 24 hrs / day, 365 days per year? That includes use by family members because they are going to at some point be involved.

If not, then your application is likely to result in unhappiness, at a most inconvenient time.

The BMS in a Li battery is intended to be a "last line of defence for a mistake", not a "design feature used routinely".

Not everyone of course agrees, but what good is a battery that has gotten cold in Canada and can't run a diesel heater?

Sort of agree. I have been in that sitch with a flooded battery that was under capacity and it was dead and would not run. If a lithium batt is that low you have pulled more than twice the capacity as you could have from a similarly rated lead-acid battery. But your example was a frozen lithium batt, and that is not where the lithium's BMS disconnect. On the BBs you would still be able to run the heater, then when the sun comes out and the batts warm up they could be charged back up. The BMS doesn't disconnect the draw, just the charge. Other lithiums don't disconnect anything based on temps so the usage would be the same unless you tried to charge at a campsite on a frozen night. Putting a lightbulb in the battery bay will keep it from freezing. But trying to drive during freezing conditions is where you would need the BBs or a disconnect switch for the batteries. The alternator would try to charge the batteries and out in the wind they would be VERY cold.

I watched a Will Prowse video https://youtu.be/czztMGboIQ8 where he said the Daly BMS folks claim their latest versions HAVE low temp cut-off. Fingers crossed for those like me that are making their own solution.

You might want to consider the Chargery BMS. Been working with it for a couple of weeks. So far I'm real happy with it. Though the spec doesn't mention it, low temp cut-off is at 2 deg.C. There's also a programmable max temp cut-off as well as a delta temp cut-off. The BMS has two temp sensors. One mounts in the middle of the pack the other outside.

http://www.chargery.com/doc/Chargery_BMS8T_specification_V3.0.pdf

israndy said:

Other lithiums don't disconnect anything based on temps so the usage would be the same unless you tried to charge at a campsite on a frozen night. Putting a lightbulb in the battery bay will keep it from freezing. But trying to drive during freezing conditions is where you would need the BBs or a disconnect switch for the batteries. The alternator would try to charge the batteries and out in the wind they would be VERY cold.

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Many other "drop in " Lithiums have a low temperature charge cutoff built into the BMS also. It's not only in the Battle Borns. There are several with built in heaters too, which I haven't seen on the Battle Borns yet.

I do agree that a low temperature cutoff and maybe an external heater would be good ideas in a DIY pack.

I'm not in a cold climate, so I did not get the heaters. The fresh / black grey water system is not designed for a cold climate, so I don't plan on low temp camping.

Regards,

Mark

calbiker said:

You might want to consider the Chargery BMS.

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I did a site search for Under Temperature and found nothing, and each of the BMS only specify that they handle Over temp situations. The link you sent to the manual doesn't specify any "under" temperature settings. I couldn't even find out where they sell these. The only place I found one was on eBay.

marklg said:

Many other "drop-in " Lithiums have a low-temperature charge cutoff built into the BMS also.

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The trick with the BBs is simply that they don't cut off the battery when they cut off the charging capability. This means you can drop them into an RV and just USE them. Other lithiums would fail to run the furnace overnight when the battery bay got below freezing, even if the battery was full.

The only solution I have seen, not a good one, is a Victron solar controller that has a temp sensor that cuts off solar charging while the batteries are too cold. What if you wanna hook to shore power or, as I stated above, run the engine with the alternator. There really needs to be a solution to using the battery in these conditions. I can drain the water and just stop at a public restroom to use the RV in winter, but the battery is pretty important to the operation of the vehicle.

Though, I have yet to take the RV A.N.Y.W.H.E.R.E since I got the Tesla, 2 years in March. Wife is fine with hotels and when she isn't with me I car camp. The heat can run all night and I lose only a bit of battery. I have a tiny fridge and giant thermos of water, McDonalds is my friend.

I contacted the manufacturer and they stated low temperature cut-off is around 1 to 2 deg.C. I verified cut-off temp by placing ice cubes on temp sensor.

While over voltage sets an alarm, low temp does not. Probably wouldn't want an alarm in this situation. Why get woken up in the middle of the night because the temperature went below freezing?

Don't care for ebay?
https://www.aliexpress.com/item/32989414312.html?spm=a2g0o.productlist.0.0.739c6625V1kmS0&algo_pvid=bd4e0f6c-4f05-4d99-a8c1-9593b343e8d0&algo_expid=bd4e0f6c-4f05-4d99-a8c1-9593b343e8d0-2&btsid=acfe408f-a514-4164-bfa2-f31c6f9407b6&ws_ab_test=searchweb0_0,searchweb201602_5,searchweb201603_52

israndy said:

I did a site search for Under Temperature and found nothing, and each of the BMS only specify that they handle Over temp situations. The link you sent to the manual doesn't specify any "under" temperature settings. I couldn't even find out where they sell these. The only place I found one was on eBay.

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israndy said:

The trick with the BBs is simply that they don't cut off the battery when they cut off the charging capability. This means you can drop them into an RV and just USE them. Other lithiums would fail to run the furnace overnight when the battery bay got below freezing, even if the battery was full.

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Standard Lifeblues claim discharge to -4 F and charge cutoff at 32 F. They have cold temperature versions with built in heaters that can charge and discharge down to -4F.

The Trojan Trilliums also reduce the charge current with temperature, going to zero charge at cold.

I think many others have similar functionality. Low temperature charge cutoff by the BMS is not only limited to Battle Borns.

Regards,

Mark

I have 10 of the Trojan 110AH Trilliums and the internal BMS for each has these shutoffs that I use for a last level of protection:
LV <8V for 3 sec
LV <2.3V for 3 sec any cell
HV >3.8V for 3 sec any cell
HDisCurr >250A for 30 sec or >500A instant
HChCurr >120A for 3 sec
HT >167 for 30 sec
LT <4deg F
Short <8V instant

The max charge current at low temps is also specified, but the user must insure that the charge source is limited:
>73 deg F 110A
41 to 73 56A
32 to 41 15A
14 to 32 6A
-4 to 14 Disch only

I don't have any solar, and only initiate charging from Alt, BtoB, or 120V charger manually so have to be aware. Never had a problem yet, but live in FL so not likely.