Yet another insulation post (experiment)

SOLBRTs

Member
FWIW

2017 144 Crew high 4x4 pebble gray - insulation experiment - thanks to everyone who has posted on this topic. It was quite a read.

My considerations:

1. I run a Sprinter (2nd one) because I have big dogs that are always with me and I also work with breed rescue, on occasion, so I need a large, flexible, quickly reconfigurable space.

2. I’m more concerned with heat than cold. The colder it is, the happier the dogs are but the heat really gets to them. When driving east-ish/west-ish across the country (most common trips) or when parked during training, direct sun to the roof, front and rear of the van is the main concern. That being said, we are in the PNW and the dogs also get regular trips to the mountain. Snow covered dogs take a long time to melt and they introduce a lot of moisture as they do. Defrost will help with moisture control but outside humidity, condensation and, therefore, good air circulation are a concern.

3. We will camp in the van in the summer but winter camping would be rare.

4. I won’t keep the van forever and the closer to stock the van is, at time of sale, the easier the van will be to sell. Any updates must be minimally invasive and cost effective. (Working under the assumption that upgrades are worth, at best, 50% of their value at time of sale). For this reason I also don’t want to cut into the skin of the van.

5. I’m an ex mechanic. Permanent changes like things glued to walls and other changes that make repair work difficult drive mechanics crazy and raise repair costs.

6. The van has the cab insulation option and it is much quieter than my 2011 without the option, so no plans to touch the cab until I understand exactly what that package included (does anyone know?)


After reading through all the insulation posts I came to the conclusion that I own a metal garden shed with wheels. So I decided to approach insulation from that perspective and focus first on radiant heat barriers in the roof and glass. I’m also in the apparel industry so I am familiar with apparel insulation. My Columbia OmniTech insulated vest was also an inspiration as it has a radiant barrier and reflects substantially more heat than a vest without the OmniTech lining.


Overall I’m not trying to crest a climate controlled environment. Just trying to improve conditions a bit.

Plan
1. Sound dampening - because I already had torn the interior apart. I used Second Skin from Arizona, 1mm B grade because there is a lot to cover. U.S. made and glue tested in the Arizona heat. This is the second time I have used this product and I like it. I did 50-60% coverage and the complete wheel wells. REALLY BIG difference. The interior volume has dropped enough that people hear the difference when I’m on the MB phone mic. Downside? I can now hear squeak and rattles in my gear that I never heard before. Road noise, speed bump noise, tire whine all substantially reduced.

2. Roof insulation - Second Skin Heat Wave Pro attached to the HEADLINER with 3M 90 (not to the roof) so there is a reflective air gap between the headliner and the roof. HWP is 3/8 denim insulation with reflective material on both sides. This insulation is generally light and quiet. I made individual batts and sealed them before attaching them to the headliner so moisture should not be an issue.
Unfortunately - I really won’t know how well all this works for another few months but the last few days in the PNW have been sunny and it seems like less heat is coming through the roof.

Floor insulation - 3/8 in Stall mats cut to fit. For my application, the durability, sound and heat reducing properties along with easy removal for cleaning can’t be beat for the price.

3. Windows - in the next months I will replace at least one and probably both crew windows. with window-in-a-window slider windows to improve airflow and then I’ll have 3M non-tinted Crystalline series UV blocking film placed on the front windshield band and all other glass.

3. Walls - Crew inserts removed and replaced with the plastics from a cargo van, simply because they a durable and, most importantly, easy to clean. Wall insulation plan is undecided at this time but my thought is to cover the interior plastic panels with radiant Mylar (glued on) using the dead air space that exists between the panels and the outer sheetmetal.

If winter camping becomes a consideration. I will sew Thinsulate inserts that can be attached to the interior walls.

I’ll add some pictures. Hopefully they help someone for some project they have in mind.
56721263144__939CA74F-020E-4728-9DF7-0EC0848FD789.jpg56721267749__B5AB25D4-2B18-479B-875D-05B0B355F32B.jpg56721273865__DAA2789B-4324-4207-91A0-9A8CAEBC5338.jpg56721378757__C0231B0A-49D7-49AF-BC30-7CE23621BD94.jpg56736955873__C3B10BF0-54DB-4753-ADF4-105A32006FF6.jpg
 

ptheland

2013 144" low top Passgr
I know you said you didn't want to cut into the sheet metal, but I would give serious consideration to installing a roof vent with a powered fan. Your application is practically screaming for one. A roof vent towards the rear combined with open sliding windows on the sides will move a lot of air and moisture out of the van. That will do more than almost anything else to keep temperatures down.

Remember that the dogs breathing inside the van will generate a lot of heat and moisture even without radiant heat from the sun. You've got to get that out of the van.

A roof vent is not going to have a significant impact on resale, and is one of the first things many would want to install anyway. They're common and good ones are well-engineered to be leak free with proper installation. They're also pretty simple to un-do if you really feel the need. One square of automotive sheet metal painted to match, a bunch of pop rivets, and a good sealant and you're all set. The roof (especially the high roof) is well out of sight, so a patch doesn't need to be too fancy.
 

GSWatson

2013 144
I lived in WA state for 8 years, and I’m familiar with the humidity there ( though it’s nowhere near Florida, where I’m sitting right now... I’m skeptical about denim insulation in moist environments; I know it’s treated with Borax or something similar, but I prefer a synthetic insulation. Just like clothing.

Here’s what I’ve done, and I realize it’s got some non-removable aspects that won’t appeal to you, but....

I have a silver 144 HR. I camp in the Nevada desert for about a month in August every year (Burning Man), and I wanted to be comfortable.

I painted the roof with white elastomeric RV roof paint, using the front and rear roof seams as boundaries. Not visible from the street. I didn’t do a before and after test, but I figured it could do nothing but help. And I feel, just in my gut, that it’s better than a reflective barrier on the inside, since the metal isn’t getting as hot to start with. I can touch the surface comfortably in the mid day sun when the rest of the metal is hot hot hot.

On the inside, I first glued in 1” polyiso with great stuff foam from the pro gun. Then Thinsulate from Hein. The polyiso might have been overkill, but it only added about $100 to the total.

I’ve been super happy with the results. I’d like to do Crystaline on the windows, especially the front, but when I’m in the desert I just tape Reflectix over the outside.

I have a Maxxair over the bed, and I think it’s something that’s highly effective and a selling point for the van - you’ll definitely get your money back from that one. A vent in the floor, like in the sliding door step well, will provide the coolest makeup air for the fan. I’m the desert I keep it on 30% all day (solar more than keeps up with that), and tape a furnace filter over the passenger window to keep the dust out. I’d like to do an underbody vent, just haven’t gotten around to it.

I also have WeatherTech vents on the front door windows, for when it’s raining and the fan is running.

I think the fan should be up there on the list. There’s just no substitute for fresh air. Especially with a ready supply of Dog Breath... [emoji1787]

Cheers,
Greg




Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 

SOLBRTs

Member
I know you said you didn't want to cut into the sheet metal, but I would give serious consideration to installing a roof vent with a powered fan. Your application is practically screaming for one. A roof vent towards the rear combined with open sliding windows on the sides will move a lot of air and moisture out of the van. That will do more than almost anything else to keep temperatures down.

Remember that the dogs breathing inside the van will generate a lot of heat and moisture even without radiant heat from the sun. You've got to get that out of the van.

A roof vent is not going to have a significant impact on resale, and is one of the first things many would want to install anyway. They're common and good ones are well-engineered to be leak free with proper installation. They're also pretty simple to un-do if you really feel the need. One square of automotive sheet metal painted to match, a bunch of pop rivets, and a good sealant and you're all set. The roof (especially the high roof) is well out of sight, so a patch doesn't need to be too fancy.


I know the fan is key. I go back and forth on it but I’m not sure I’ll keep the van even through this summer. Working hard to relocate overseas and if things come together I’ll want to dump the van overnight. 25 years in the auto/motorcycle industry has convinced me that, for sure, the best sale price will come from the least molestation of the van.
 

SOLBRTs

Member
I lived in WA state for 8 years, and I’m familiar with the humidity there ( though it’s nowhere near Florida, where I’m sitting right now... I’m skeptical about denim insulation in moist environments; I know it’s treated with Borax or something similar, but I prefer a synthetic insulation. Just like clothing.

Here’s what I’ve done, and I realize it’s got some non-removable aspects that won’t appeal to you, but....

I have a silver 144 HR. I camp in the Nevada desert for about a month in August every year (Burning Man), and I wanted to be comfortable.

I painted the roof with white elastomeric RV roof paint, using the front and rear roof seams as boundaries. Not visible from the street. I didn’t do a before and after test, but I figured it could do nothing but help. And I feel, just in my gut, that it’s better than a reflective barrier on the inside, since the metal isn’t getting as hot to start with. I can touch the surface comfortably in the mid day sun when the rest of the metal is hot hot hot.

On the inside, I first glued in 1” polyiso with great stuff foam from the pro gun. Then Thinsulate from Hein. The polyiso might have been overkill, but it only added about $100 to the total.

I’ve been super happy with the results. I’d like to do Crystaline on the windows, especially the front, but when I’m in the desert I just tape Reflectix over the outside.

I have a Maxxair over the bed, and I think it’s something that’s highly effective and a selling point for the van - you’ll definitely get your money back from that one. A vent in the floor, like in the sliding door step well, will provide the coolest makeup air for the fan. I’m the desert I keep it on 30% all day (solar more than keeps up with that), and tape a furnace filter over the passenger window to keep the dust out. I’d like to do an underbody vent, just haven’t gotten around to it.

I also have WeatherTech vents on the front door windows, for when it’s raining and the fan is running.

I think the fan should be up there on the list. There’s just no substitute for fresh air. Especially with a ready supply of Dog Breath... [emoji1787]

Cheers,
Greg




Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

I believe you, but the permanence and rigidity of the polyiso was a non starter for me. The white roof idea, even on top of the light color of my van also seemed like a good idea to me. I put in a call in to my vinyl guy to see what could be done/what the risks are. Overall I’m just looking for a nice bit of improvement. I’ll leave the expedition level upgrades for others.
 

SOLBRTs

Member
I lived in WA state for 8 years, and I’m familiar with the humidity there ( though it’s nowhere near Florida, where I’m sitting right now... I’m skeptical about denim insulation in moist environments; I know it’s treated with Borax or something similar, but I prefer a synthetic insulation. Just like clothing.

Here’s what I’ve done, and I realize it’s got some non-removable aspects that won’t appeal to you, but....

I have a silver 144 HR. I camp in the Nevada desert for about a month in August every year (Burning Man), and I wanted to be comfortable.

I painted the roof with white elastomeric RV roof paint, using the front and rear roof seams as boundaries. Not visible from the street. I didn’t do a before and after test, but I figured it could do nothing but help. And I feel, just in my gut, that it’s better than a reflective barrier on the inside, since the metal isn’t getting as hot to start with. I can touch the surface comfortably in the mid day sun when the rest of the metal is hot hot hot.

On the inside, I first glued in 1” polyiso with great stuff foam from the pro gun. Then Thinsulate from Hein. The polyiso might have been overkill, but it only added about $100 to the total.

I’ve been super happy with the results. I’d like to do Crystaline on the windows, especially the front, but when I’m in the desert I just tape Reflectix over the outside.

I have a Maxxair over the bed, and I think it’s something that’s highly effective and a selling point for the van - you’ll definitely get your money back from that one. A vent in the floor, like in the sliding door step well, will provide the coolest makeup air for the fan. I’m the desert I keep it on 30% all day (solar more than keeps up with that), and tape a furnace filter over the passenger window to keep the dust out. I’d like to do an underbody vent, just haven’t gotten around to it.

I also have WeatherTech vents on the front door windows, for when it’s raining and the fan is running.

I think the fan should be up there on the list. There’s just no substitute for fresh air. Especially with a ready supply of Dog Breath... [emoji1787]

Cheers,
Greg




Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Also....freaking adorable dog!
 

glasseye

Well-known member
Floor insulation - 3/8 in Stall mats cut to fit. For my application, the durability, sound and heat reducing properties along with easy removal for cleaning can’t be beat for the price.
Still delighted with my horse stall mats choice nearly 10 years later. Only problem I've noticed is thermal expansion/contraction. Gaps can appear when the material is colder than the install temp. You need to allow for this on install. This flooring material has seen temps from 40C to -15C. Sound insulation performance is excellent. Ease of cleaning also excellent.
 

SOLBRTs

Member
Still delighted with my horse stall mats choice nearly 10 years later. Only problem I've noticed is thermal expansion/contraction. Gaps can appear when the material is colder than the install temp. You need to allow for this on install. This flooring material has seen temps from 40C to -15C. Sound insulation performance is excellent. Ease of cleaning also excellent.


Honestly I think I got the idea for the stall mats from you
 

THE

2018, 144, HR, 4x4
Ok, so I've just removed and insulated the driver/passenger overhead zone, and got it all back together. No problem (well.... haha) One man show.

Now I am looking at those B pillars, and also looking at the bottom area of the B pillars and there is a quite a large void down in there.

Is the consensus to jamb pricey thinsulate down in there? Are most folks pulling the thinsulate up through the B pillar as well?

I'll do it as best I can I guess if so.

I lived in a 72 VW poptop for 2 years in all kinds of weather and I don't even know IF that sucker was insulated at all.

Where do you draw the line? I'm not insulating the floor as of right now, subject to change.

TH
 

GSWatson

2013 144
I got some polyester batting on sale at my local fabric store - JoAnn Fabrics. I shoved that in the pillars and saved the Thinsulate for open spaces. Did it help? Probably not with temps, as the ratio of conductive metal to air space is high. Probably a little on sound. But it was cheap and made me feel good.

I thought about using window/door spray foam, but it’s latex based and can absorb water.

Greg


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wquek

Work in progress
I lived in a 72 VW poptop for 2 years in all kinds of weather and I don't even know IF that sucker was insulated at all.

I own a 70 Westy and I can say they do have fiberglass insulation behind the panels on the sides below the jalousie windows. Totally worthless!




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aksotar

2017 4x4 144 Cargo
you take a dog on the Playa ?!?!?!
in 2016 I saw a sparkle pony with a small dog, needless to say she was getting a lot of opinions asked for or not..
I wonder what happened, if she was told she had to take her dog out of BRC...

installing a $250 Maxxair fan is not going to detract from resale, I’d easily add the cost into the selling price and added feature description....

I cut SM600 thinsulate into strips and filled the roof channels and used loose batt, hydrophobic fiberfill (for stuffed animals, quilts, etc) and stuffed that into any hollow area I couldn’t use thinsulate in...
 

GSWatson

2013 144
No, Marty doesn’t come to the playa. I’d never do that to any animal.

Though, I do sneak my dashboard garden of succulents through the gate...


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RVCuisineScene

Active member
I used Thinsulate in my 3500 extended, covered most areas, thinking about using plastic bags from the grocery store for pillars etc. they are made of high density polyethylene which mainly degrades due to exposure to the sun and cost effective, thoughts?
 

SOLBRTs

Member
Update on the original experiment. Today 84 outside temp in direct overhead sun (not peak summer overhead sun but not too far off), no wind, pass and driver window open 1/2 and slider and crew window also 1/2 open. Laser temp gun reading the roof at 124 and the headliner at a balmy 94.

Van is a pebble grey hightop 144 without a roof vent and walls are not insulated yet.

Unfortunately I didn’t take Baseline readings last summer before installation of the HWP 3/8 thick radiant barrier insulation on the stock headliner and I know the Pebble Grey paint itself is a large part of the equation but I’m happy with what I’m seeing so far. If anyone has a Pebble Grey with a stock uninsulated headliner and they want to take a reading, I’d be curious to see what differential they are seeing.
 

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