Sprinter Wallet Flush --Texas part 2

Having been in similar situations (helping customers diagnose disasters), there are times when it's soooo bad all you can do IS laugh about it (better than crying in your beer).

My favorite example was showing a Jaguar XKE owner that we'd removed his crankshaft in the continuing effort to find out why the car was driving so poorly. We miked it, and everything seemed fine. So we went to put it back into the engine.
It wouldn't go in ... unless we rotated it 90 degrees.
The crankshaft was warped along its length.
When running, the engine was spending a lot of energy fighting the twisting shaft.
All of the mechanics had a go of hoisting it into place and seeing the fit/not-fit condition.

So we brought in the owner and let him see the fit/non-fit. (an XKE without wheels on is really pretty on a lift)

He sighed, and recalled hearing that the two happiest days in a Jag owner's life are the one when he gets his car ...
... and the one he sells it.

--dick

Confirmation bias is a powerful drug.

Dennis, any chance we could get a couple of smoking gun photos? I know you are a busy man, but if you have then on a computer perchance, and email them to me, I can post them up.

rollerbearing said:

Where did you get the data to conclude that the woman paid Dennis to put the engine in?

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Fair enough, I just re-read both threads. However, where did you get the data to conclude he did not?

That said, redirect my comments to Shop A, and this all sounds even worse for the customer. The info Dennis is posting conflicts and makes no sense to me. +1 - love to see some photos and real numbers to back all this up. From my read of things here, Shop A could well have destroyed the engine, Dennis could be wrong and have no idea of root cause, and the Texans are getting slandered over what could have been the most pristine rebuild ever produced.

More to the thread, I don’t trust anything rebuilt outside the OEM. I’ve been in OEM environments my whole career. The thought of an outsider being able to reproduce the documentation, specs, procedures, gages, etc is completely laughable for such a complex assembly.

Sorry no I can't give actual details owing to a fiduciary responsibility.
I have to get permission from the owner who has photos and the overall salient technical details.
What I can state is that I have located the smoking gun (excuse the pun!) in this case.

I usually get hired by attorneys to do this work ( one in particular in Denver who has me on a retainer) .
This makes a change since I am often mostly looking at quick lube store crap jobs which result in catastrophic engine failures .

In this case IF she wants to pursue it legally for relief it will mean hiring a Texas attorney.
I have a son in law who is a practicing Texas attorney and I met a bevy of these young eager Texas legal blades at my daughter's wedding.
So unless this fellow is going to the right thing, then I might give her some "jingle bell" numbers.

I will post something for perusal once I get a clearer road ahead.
It will make interesting reading I assure you.
In the meantime don't buy any reconditioned gas stoves from this company !
Dennis

As a pre-amble for those interested :-
Cylinder liner or bore finish is important .
Follow this forum dialogue for some background info then plateau hone.

https://www.yesterdaystractors.com/cgi-bin/viewit.cgi?bd=toolt&th=276321

Plateau hone:-
https://goodson.com/blogs/goodson-gazette/a-new-finish-in-honing

Consequently when you come to analysis a so called rebuilt engine these factors are paramount !
Plus a general guide to failure analysis.
https://www.memoparts.com/img/cms/Documents/Piston Failue.pdf

This is where I found the smoking gun of botched up "so called rebuilding".
Dennis .

lindenengineering said:

As a pre-amble for those interested :-
Cylinder liner or bore finish is important .
Follow this forum dialogue for some background info then plateau hone.

https://www.yesterdaystractors.com/cgi-bin/viewit.cgi?bd=toolt&th=276321

Plateau hone:-
https://goodson.com/blogs/goodson-gazette/a-new-finish-in-honing

Consequently when you come to analyse a so called rebuilt engine these factors are paramount !
Plus a general guide to failure analysis.
https://www.memoparts.com/img/cms/Documents/Piston Failue.pdf

This is where I found the smoking gun of botched up "so called rebuilding".
Dennis .

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I'm dying to see a photo of that piston(s) now! It's remarkable to me how tolerant an engine is to poor fits and loose tolerances... until it isn't.

I admire your expertise/work and wish your shop was closer to Montana! Maybe when I'm out of warranty I'll be driving the van down to the front range more often.

https://sprinter-source.com/forum/showthread.php?t=75125&highlight=mexico+rebuilt+texas

I followed the linked thread above a few months ago. I have no idea if it is the same user, but the details line up. That said, if you read the thread it gives some good context to the unfortunate situation in which the owner finds her/him self. If it is the same person as the one currently being cared for by Dennis than this has been a nightmare from the beginning.

If is not the same owner than it is another strike against Sprinter Depot of Texas.

Its the same incidence unfortunately.
Thanks for posting the past forum link.

As a footnote (and nothing to do with this OP thread relationship), is the incidence this year of engine failures on the T1N van applications.

Since April this year no fewer than 18 units have been towed in for serious engine failures.
Of those failures, overheating is by far the most prevalent cause.

This is followed up by injector related issues and bore wash out conditions.

Surprisingly (although heat related ) head gasket failures allowing coolant to get into the crankcase caused just about all failures related to crankshaft & bearings and plugged/defective open under piston cooling jets.
Dennis

NBB said:

Ultimately, it's on you to screen your vendors. The final product has your name on it. You're making money while the other 2 parties are losing it.

This lady obviously should have gone somewhere else for her repair. She knows zero about rebuilding engines or screening companies for quality and capability yet you make it sound like the consequences of the decision are her responsibility. You are her fiduciary, in the legal sense, and you've failed, and you're here joking about it to boot. If this case were worth enough money to litigate, you would lose the most in the matter, IMO.

If you were a good shop, and I don't think you are, you would eat this and put a freek'n functional motor in her van no matter what - like she paid you to do.

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I have no idea of the history that has caused you to have such issues with Dennis, but clearly you did not read or perhaps comprehend the original post.
Dennis did not install the POS engine in the van.

Perhaps an update to your medication is in order.

The claim by a backwoods shop that they can match the quality and specs of the OEM makes me laugh, especially while often charging the same or more money. Buying an engine from any of these guys is crazy. What you are really paying for is detail and precision - and there's just no way you're going to get a sane value per dollar outside an OEM. There is way too much going on. Better to take your money and burn it, at least it will have kept you warm for a few seconds.

There are plenty of shops who can provide good quality reman engines, including the 612/647. Are there engines which require expensive tools to bring to 100% factory new? Absolutely, some are beyond the ability of a single shop, some are beyond the ability of anyone but the factory.

The 612/647/612 are not in that group. Internal combustion engines of this class are very well understood, its not some hidden mystic voodoo.

Now Turbofan engines on aircraft? Yes, there are many parts which can be made in only 1 or two locations on the planet. Such as single crystal turbine blades. But these engines are regularly overhauled by non-oem services. Some of them only do a hanful of engines a month, in a shop about 10,000 square feet.

Even if a reman isn't 100% factory, if it can provide 100k+ of reliable service does it matter? Yes there will always be fly by night operations making sub standard engines. Its foolish to think that legitimate operations can't produce reliable reman products.

Its foolish to trust something because its got a name or brand associated with it. The best approach is to evaluate the product and work done.

Do you feel foolish making grandiose and sweeping claims about a whole industry? Such absolute statements are almost always false, either in the majority, or in the minority of cases.

Show me an inspection report of all critical dimension being checked and met, as will appear at the end of the line at the OEM. For starters. Oh wait, no-one but the OEM has that. Oh wait, most of the savages who do this work lack the attention to detail to even consider such a thing.

For example - love to hear more about this 500 mile "mule" test. Seriously? Do you tear the thing down when done and recheck everything, or is this really to see that it doesn't explode into flames after serving 0.01% of it's expected life? Also - I'm coming up with about 24 hours of labor to do such a thing, at a guesstimated $150/hr shop rate - that's about $3600, or 1/3 of the total cost, and a 25% profit? Love to get more detail on how that math works out.

Like I said - the aftermarket - it's absolutely laughable.

NBB said:

Like I said - the aftermarket - it's absolutely laughable.

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I love Autozone: lifetime warranty on everything: lots of good experience trying to get faster at the same job.

I'm on my 3rd hydroboost from O'Rileys on the Chevy! When my brake leg is noticeably bigger then the accelerator leg it is time for a new one... Hydroboost that is

NBB said:

Show me an inspection report of all critical dimension being checked and met, as will appear at the end of the line at the OEM. For starters. Oh wait, no-one but the OEM has that. Oh wait, most of the savages who do this work lack the attention to detail to even consider such a thing.

For example - love to hear more about this 500 mile "mule" test. Seriously? Do you tear the thing down when done and recheck everything, or is this really to see that it doesn't explode into flames after serving 0.01% of it's expected life? Also - I'm coming up with about 24 hours of labor to do such a thing, at a guesstimated $150/hr shop rate - that's about $3600, or 1/3 of the total cost, and a 25% profit? Love to get more detail on how that math works out.

Like I said - the aftermarket - it's absolutely laughable.

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Lets clear somethings up and STOP trying to criticise my business model because I clearly I do it better than you! I employ people and I am clearly not an employee like you.

When I give a quote to a customer for an engine in a T1N sprinter van, the BEST option is the MB rebuild.
Its great value for money for what you get @ $9540 .
Install is 15 hours which includes radiator cleaning & sundry installs at cost plus on parts like hoses etc.
Warranty is one year or 36,000 miles

Not surprisingly some owners budgets won't go that far!
The next step down is Jasper long block rebuild .
A Jasper long block rebuild option is $7428.
Again the same RnR labor charge of 15 hours but there is an additional 6 hours of labor to dress the engine by transferring existing ancillary parts to the new unit.
On this option there can be an additional $1750 for exchange MB injectors

The next step down is our own in house rebuilds which come out to about $6500 fully built plus labor turn key, but turbo is extra! This final pricing is dependent upon budgets which are tailored to a customer's requirements.
We warrant these engines for one year with unlimited mileage in that period. The end budget cost has to be conducive to the success of the rebuild or I won't build it .
Judging by the number we have built over ten years or so , it seems to be a good formula.

The last option is a take out used engine.
If I supply the unit, its between $4000 to $4500 per unit plus install.
Again the FIE is tested and the engine cleared for future use.
Warranty is limited to 90 days and it only covers major component failures.
In short I have to make a profit or I don't do it.
Dennis

Does the MB reman come with the turbo?

Given the approximate $3k price spread, it doesn't seem to make much sense to choose anything other than the MB reman.... or am I missing something?

Yes!
The only thing short is the alternator, accessory belt and the PAS pump. If you can afford it, its the very best option and its priced right!

I might add that on the 906 Sprinter, the re-man engine range at about $9000 I 4 & $13,000 V6 respectively, (Ex MB USA works) and really its the ONLY way to go for a reliable re-power when you need a replacement .
Even Jasper doesn't do one of those.

As a footnote this year and the hot weather has (by coincidence) caused an abnormal amount of wrecked engine tow ins on T1N's.

We sold four MB re-man installs & two Jasper long block units to date .
I have offered two owners a used take out as a budget option, but being financially challenged those two are on sky hooks. The rest are in some form or another of "in house" rebuild programs. Two guys have towed theirs home for DIY attention.

As a comparison let's look at a Landrover LR4 and its Ford based AJ series engine.
A replacement 5 litre gasoline engine is a few dollars short of $16,000.
It has a $600 core which must be paid up front before delivery.
Then it attracts a 17,5 hours install labor charge !
I am about to do one of these next week.

I suppose the light of end costs in the dark tunnel has to be the post 2010 1750 cc Prius engine/powerpack.
Prone somewhat to head gasket failure from overheating & neglect the coolant finds it way on top of the piston. The super powerful electric starter motor has no truck for hydro locked engines so it rakes the pistons and rods, bending or breaking at least one.
On that car when a check engine light comes on YOU STOP!
BUT nobody does!
Everything is sensors and electric water pumps.
The most cost expedient repair is replace the the whole power pack from a later donor collision car !
Turn key out the door is $4500 plus tax engine & transaxle etc including labor all day, every day.
And it gets 3 months unlimited mileage warranty.
What can you say? They sell like hotcakes!
Its only money!
Cheers Dennis

Having read reviews on Jasper engines, not sure I'd go that route... unless those are DIY horror stories.

danski0224 said:

... unless those are DIY horror stories.

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That can be a factor. Some likely are install related. Kinda like the complaints about the Silverstar transmissions where it gets revealed that the cooler and associated components were never properly flushed/cleaned.

But.
Back to topic, or wherever page 5 takes us.

vic

Yeah, when your engine blows due to overfueling injectors or a plugged radiator, and you just swap in another engine with the same faulty parts...