Van Building gone wrong - Buyer beware - Sprinter Engineering

vanski

If it’s winter, I’m probably skiing..
Guy down the street from me has been doing a to the studs remodel/addition to his home. First GC took his money, had his Subs go to the house and do some work, gc didn’t pay his subs, took the money and ran... Litigation was threatened and a pennies on the dollar settlement was offered. My neighbor opted to not take the settlement because he’d rather make sure the guy can never build another house in the state of Ca again.

At least this guy is offering to give some money back... he is communicating with you in some form. He did give a sincere apology at one point. Not that it means much or helps your situation, but at least he’s not a complete douche.

Building these vans is tough. It takes multiple hundreds of hours and multiple thousands of dollars in material cost to complete something.

SE’s website states that a base level build, with the most basic of components, is $25k. Not sure your scope was base level, so how did the owner of SE provide any kind of confidence around that number? Bait and switch? Timeline is a completely different conversation.

Lose lose all around.
 

Sunny&75

Active member
So far most of these replies have been from people that haven’t any experience with Allan from Sprinter Engineering. I’d like to give my 2 cents worth on this since I do have some experience with him.
Even though after viewing Overland Gear Guy video, it does seem that Allan has made a lot of business errors in dealing with a situation that quickly got out of control for him. The experience I’ve had thus far with Allan has always been positive. He’s been always willing to help solve a situation and honor his commitments. I’m writing this because I feel that we are hearing one side of this story and the OP seems to be vengeful and committed on destroying Allans business. That said, maybe Rob has legitimate complaints. But at what point can you say enough is enough? I understand Rob would like to warn people about his experience. But he’s out for blood. We don’t know what kind of pressures Allan was under at the time. I’ve seen Allan’s work and I believe it’s first rate. I’ve done a buildout myself, and have worked extensively on boats. I do have some experience with the type of labor involved. As other posters have said, 25k doesn’t buy you a lot. “To good to be true”
This is a small community, and to bash a business that has done something that is, I believe, atypical is unfortunate. IMHO, this doesn’t look great for either parties. Thanks.
 

Midwestdrifter

Engineer In Residence
The OP has decided to post this mess on multiple social media platforms. Does not seem like the behavior of a rational adult. I would welcome some feedback from the other party. I am sure mistakes were make, but I am not going to jump to the conclusion that SE is a scam artist just yet.

Of course if I was a business owner, I would probably refuse to work with a ex-client if they went scorched earth like this. So its unlikely he will get any easy relief at this point. As a plus its a good bit of free exposure for the OPs business. Nothing like a bit of drama to get the views. Maybe I am too cynical, but pessimists live longer.
 
Last edited:

Sunny&75

Active member
The OP has decided to post this mess on multiple social media platforms. Does not seem like the behavior of a rational adult. I would welcome some feedback from the other party. I am sure mistakes were make, but I am not going to jump to the conclusion that SE is a scam artist just yet.

Of course if I was a business owner, I would probably refuse to work with a ex-client if they went scorched earth like this. So its unlikely he will get any easy relief at this point. As a plus its a good bit of free exposure for the OPs business. Nothing like a bit of drama to get the views. Maybe I am too cynical, but pessimists live longer.
Not sure this is great advertising for either party.
 

lindenengineering

Well-known member
I tend not comment about these types of business mishaps.
Since there are numerous often undisclosed factors affecting the execution of the project and its successful outcome for the benefit and satisfaction of both parties.

All too often I see posts on this on this forum site which reflects the quick to chide posture without knowing all the facts.
My only questions based upon curiosity and the need to finish the job within a certain time frame from what was stated is/was a "specific performance" clause written into the job contract and clauses to cover such thing as a "Force Majeur."

I can only state this outcome reflects a term called 'Sprezzatura' in Italian.
Something I learned from Italians as young wandering teen working in a casual arrangement for bed & board !
That fundamental factor of understanding I got in exchange for labor with a family business doing tile work, plastering and modelling near Ravenna, consequently I quickly learned the meaning of 'Sprezzatura'.

Guys we need more 'Sprezzatura' in such contracts like this, now looking back & reflecting over a contract that went sideways in my own house with a kitchen remodel.
So the OP does have my sympathies from my own recent experiences .
Dennis
 

bored

Well-known member
I think the OP documented very clearly (if you watch the video) that this guy had no intention of meeting his deadline. It hard to claim the builder was malicious or simply over extended himself. The issue most contractors/builders have who over extend themselves is they spend the money once its in.

This is what I do when I sub contract anyone for work that I have to pay in advance.

They get a contract also of what my expectations are, time line and how much I have paid and what I have paid for.

The contract also says if I need to take legal action they pay my attorney fees if I win.

Be sure you are CONFIDENT you will win because if you don't by including such clause in the contract if you lose you are responsible for their attorney fees now.

I have never lost in court and I don't have time to haggle with people.

If the contractor/builder wont sign it then you have to question their intentions.

BTW get an attorney to write the contract.
 

vanski

If it’s winter, I’m probably skiing..
my sense is he's very dependent on some subs which didn't come through as expected.. Alan did explain this..

I'm also willing to bet he had bigger fish to fry.. which sucks, $25K is a big number to most, but in this game it's a base entry number which isn't very competitive when you have other clients willing to post up $100k+ for a conversion..
 

bored

Well-known member
my sense is he's very dependent on some subs which didn't come through as expected.. Alan did explain this..

I'm also willing to bet he had bigger fish to fry.. which sucks, $25K is a big number to most, but in this game it's a base entry number which isn't very competitive when you have other clients willing to post up $100k+ for a conversion..
They accepted to do the job for 25k.

If you have customers willing to pay 100k then don't take the job. Its business 101.

What he should have done when the client start questioning his ability to finish on time is admit he over committed and cannot finish on time.

Remove what he has done and return the money and van back to the client the way he received it.

Cut his losses if he truly has clients paying 100's of thousands of dollars.

I have no sympathy for this. Its not the clients fault if you cant manage your own business.
 

john61ct

Active member
Are you claiming someone could market **a van** with that mark in the US?

This is a business working directly with **that brand** vans, and not just complete idiots might infer some business relationship with the mothership.
 

220629

Well-known member
Not that anyone asked...

...

BTW get an [appropriate] attorney to write the contract.
Good advice.

The correct attorney for the job can make a difference.

When Uncle Sam comes knocking for IRS issues you need a tax attorney. When you need a basic boilerplate business contract you should not contact your family law firm.

Surgeons specialize as do attorneys. I didn't want a neurosurgeon replacing my hip any more than I want my estate attorney specialist creating a small business contract format.

:2cents: vic
 

marklg

Well-known member
I think the OP documented very clearly (if you watch the video) that this guy had no intention of meeting his deadline. It hard to claim the builder was malicious or simply over extended himself. The issue most contractors/builders have who over extend themselves is they spend the money once its in.

This is what I do when I sub contract anyone for work that I have to pay in advance.

They get a contract also of what my expectations are, time line and how much I have paid and what I have paid for.

The contract also says if I need to take legal action they pay my attorney fees if I win.

Be sure you are CONFIDENT you will win because if you don't by including such clause in the contract if you lose you are responsible for their attorney fees now.

I have never lost in court and I don't have time to haggle with people.

If the contractor/builder wont sign it then you have to question their intentions.

BTW get an attorney to write the contract.
I am in 100% agreement that you should have a contract and have it written or reviewed by a lawyer. I won't comment on this specific instance since I don't know the full story, but I do engineering contracting.

I always either provide a contract that my lawyer has approved or my lawyer reviews everything I get from the customer, contracts and all the referenced materials, terms and conditions of purchase, etc. In some cases, my first week's pay may go to my lawyer, but it is a cost of doing business. And yes, that cost of doing business is included in my fees.

A lawyer will recognize things that may cause you to walk away, or may point out things you absolutely better do exactly as written. Mine pointed out a particular clause and said I should follow it to the letter. A big percentage of his cases result from not following this particular item.

I have business insurance, including errors and omissions insurance to cover me if I do screw up. Question #1 from my insurance provider is "What percentage of your work is done to a written contract?". The only acceptable answer was 100%.

All the stuff that Dennis and bored mentioned are important too. We are in a litigious society. a complete contract makes things easier all around.

The cost of labor in the shop is not just the cost of the labor itself. It has to include all these other things, attorney's fees, government fees ( you pay a fee for the privilege of collecting sales tax and giving it to the government ), insurance, etc.

Regards,

Mark
 

HarryN

Well-known member
Van Building Gone wrong


People are asking why only $25 K for a van build, two reasons, our design was super simple and We had 19 Shows / Expos planned this summer and because we have a pretty decent internet presence, I was going to promote his business
I didn’t watch the whole video or care to, but a couple of things come to mind:

- Perhaps you don’t remember that there is this little, minor challenge in the world right now called a world wide pandemic?

- 50% of the population of the world is on stay at home orders and even more are on “strong suggestions”

- At least locally, you better have a good reason to be working on a project (essential) or you can face some pretty significant fines.

- Just how “essential” is your project to the world right now compared to the risk of multiple people getting sick enough to require hospitalization? Regardless of the simplistic concept of a 6 ft safety distance, I have seen multiple simulations and tests which indicate that the real number is closer to 25 - 30 ft. How is someone supposed to have a 2 or 3 person team in a safe distance inside of a van ? Impossible.

- You said that part of the “payment in kind” is for going to various van and trade related shows over the next 6 months. Just how many of those events do you think are going to happen? Most likely nearly zero, so you are just as much in default of the agreement on your side as he is in being late.

You better plan on another marketing strategy because right now of your 19 shows, any reasonable person would bet that most will be cancelled and the ones that do go on will be poorly attended. That means that the value of your "promotion" this year is $0.

- For people who don’t own a business where parts are part of assembling into a product, do you really think that it cost $10 for a business to go out and buy a $10 box of screws? Have we all forgotten that time is money?

Go add up how much time it takes to think about what screws are needed for a project, perhaps go to a store or two, and try to buy them – and then go back to your place. Now multiply this by how much you cost your company (roughly 2 x your salary) and see what this $10 box of screws actually costs.

- I am not sure if you know this, but many businesses rely on a steady supply of pharmacy grade IPA to use as a cleaning solvent. There aren’t all that many alternatives to this. Go try and buy a bottle of IPA right now, as it is pretty much all being used for medical related aspects. Not arguing with the greater good, but it is a factor.

Thanks to our government’s concept that ethanol is a “sin”, I was forced to pay $40 for a 5th of everclear instead of the $5 of alcohol it actually contains to keep my own work going (replacement for IPA) – and I was lucky to get it.

As far as what it takes to build things:

- Your bags / products are little more than a few pieces of cloth and some straps. Pretty simple bill of materials.

- All I do is electrical stuff and I have 40 suppliers with a wide range of lead times and costs. Your little bags business is very simple compared to building something as complex as a van interior.

Yes, I do also get behind on things, but I also know that it is common for people to change what they need, when they need it, when they can pay, etc - and while in theory I could charge them for every change – I don’t and many small businesses absorb this. For better or worse.

I guess in summary – my view is that you are completely out of line. Maybe covering for your own business operations taking a hit and trying to blame someone else.

Go look up the concept of Force majeure and see if it applies? I bet a judge might think so and might not take so kindly to your prolific statements on every media forum out there.

Please don’t ever bother contacting me because there is no way that I would ever help you with any project – ever - for any reason. I have never said that to anyone else but I am saying it to you.

I am going to suppress saying what I really think because it is a family friendly forum.
 
Last edited:

vanski

If it’s winter, I’m probably skiing..
They accepted to do the job for 25k.

If you have customers willing to pay 100k then don't take the job. Its business 101.

What he should have done when the client start questioning his ability to finish on time is admit he over committed and cannot finish on time.

Remove what he has done and return the money and van back to the client the way he received it.

Cut his losses if he truly has clients paying 100's of thousands of dollars.

I have no sympathy for this. Its not the clients fault if you cant manage your own business.
Couldn't agree with you more! Unfortunately the world is a messy place.. I know you can come up with an umpteenth number of examples where this type of behavior is exhibited in business and folks get away with it. Case in point here, the OP commented on other builds coming in and out constantly over 7 weeks time. What, is their money just greener? Cash perhaps? This guy had some level of sophistication to see what was going on in his schedule the day he made the commitment.. And the days following. He just didn't want to let the opportunity go by but when Joe Deer Valley made his way down the hill he dropped and shifted..

All speculation of course, but that's what we're all doing here.
 

BigDC

Active member
Although we are only hearing one side of the story here, Rob’s story aligns very closely with that of a friend of mine. Friend flew back to SLC to get his van when it was obvious that the stated timelines weren’t going to be met. Sometimes going scorched earth is the only way to right a wrong.

That single gang electrical remodel box cut into the exterior of the van tells me all I need to know about the qualifications of the installer.
 

lindenengineering

Well-known member
Although we are only hearing one side of the story here, Rob’s story aligns very closely with that of a friend of mine. Friend flew back to SLC to get his van when it was obvious that the stated timelines weren’t going to be met. Sometimes going scorched earth is the only way to right a wrong.

That single gang electrical remodel box cut into the exterior of the van tells me all I need to know about the qualifications of the installer.




Yes a glaring example of a profound lack of "Sprezzatura".
Dennis
 

Sunny&75

Active member
Although we are only hearing one side of the story here, Rob’s story aligns very closely with that of a friend of mine. Friend flew back to SLC to get his van when it was obvious that the stated timelines weren’t going to be met. Sometimes going scorched earth is the only way to right a wrong.

That single gang electrical remodel box cut into the exterior of the van tells me all I need to know about the qualifications of the installer.
Curious, Tell me how the electrical box should have been done?
 

monoloco

Member
Although we are only hearing one side of the story here, Rob’s story aligns very closely with that of a friend of mine. Friend flew back to SLC to get his van when it was obvious that the stated timelines weren’t going to be met. Sometimes going scorched earth is the only way to right a wrong.

That single gang electrical remodel box cut into the exterior of the van tells me all I need to know about the qualifications of the installer.
Well, at least he didn't use Romex for the wiring. lol
 

Graphite Dave

Dave Orton
Looks like the shop and the Sprinter owner did not communicate with each other before work was started. Work should not have been started without a written quote. The timeline was not realistic from the start which both parties should have realized.

If Sprinter owner would have been as detailed before work was started as he is in the video, then the misunderstanding would be less.

Disagree that legal advice is always required. I used a job shop to build my conveyors for 40 years. We did it on a handshake without any written contract. I simply agreed to pay him an hourly rate when he worked on my projects. If asked for a quote he naturally bid it high to cover any unexpected problems so I decided not to ask for quotes. I estimated the cost of the job.

Same for dealing with my customers. No written contracts or legal representation. I charged an hourly rate to design the packaging line and when design was complete and agreed to by the customer, I would then quote the conveyors required. Both the customer and I had a detailed drawing clearly describing the scope of the work. In 40 plus years I never had any money conflicts with a customer. The key is both parties understand what is going to be provided for what price. Most of the jobs were done without a purchase order. Some of these were $80,000 jobs.

Maybe I was just lucky. The key is to be very detailed of what will be provided.
 

marky

Active member
I agree with Dennis. I cannot say her what I thought when I saw that cheap electrical outlet box cut into the side of the van. Neither party has much sense of quality materials and workmanship.
 

Top Bottom