mtncrawler
Active member
Hey robzr - thanks for the comments! Just seeing your note - for some reason I didn't get notified when you posted? Probably a little late to chime in - posting updates below.
Another electrical system by a NOOB
- Thread starter mtncrawler
- Start date
mtncrawler
Active member
A little update - my electrical progress in pics.
A few changes from my original schematic - mostly changes based on the suggestions above.
1) Added a shunt (BV712 monitor) - I would have done the "shunt-buss" suggested by Hein - but I already had the (-) buss bar purchased.
2) Batteries are 2, 6V Lifeline 220AH.
3) Added provisions for a sub-panel (passenger side) off the main Blue Sea panel (similar to others, but changes the plan after seeing a similar install by ourkaravan!)
4) Changed to breakers vs fuse/switch combos in three places. I'm still using a 50A fuse at the starter battery with Blue Sea 6006 in drivers seat pedestal to shut down the whole system.
Installation/Construction;
1) I fab'd up the battery tray and spotted locations in the subfloor. It's held in place by, 4 3/8 screws to tee nuts - then the tray holds the batteries. Location self explanatory.
2) The whole electrical area will be under a bench seat - but as I wanted to have adequate room for all the electrical hardware (laying flat) - I built a self supported shelf (wood) and frame (aluminum) which will contain all electrical. Then I merely slide the bench frame over the whole works - with a flip up top door for access of course. All easily broken down.
First pic shows the inner electrical frame - the lead (+) wire 2AWG along with a ignition trigger wire is shown on top of the aluminum running to the back of van. It will be connected to the Kisae charger input. Along the wall is the main chassis ground wire. It's connected to a new frame point underneath ( I didn't trust the small, fragile looking OEM point) - and to the end of the buss barr in pic 2.
In both pics 1 & 3 you can see the overall arrangement of the electrical frame over the batteries.
In pic 2 - this is the hardware shelf. I'll be able to wire it (as shown) then just place the whole shelf on the alumni frame and bolt in place (obviously making all the house battery connections first. In the pic you see the cable coming into the shunt which will come directly off the neg of house battery (and only connection on that pole is the shunt).
The charger to house battery (+) connection runs through the 40A breaker -then down underneath to the house battery. The (-) connection to the buss bar.
The 100A Blue Sea Fuse panel is fed (+) from the house batteries, through a 90A breaker, to the (+) of the fuse panel. The (-) connection to the buss bar.
Also planned on running both charger CH1 & CH3 (-) to the buss bar as shown - however, not sure if I should connect the charger output (-) down to the house battery instead (??)
Also shown is the 40A breaker that will be fed off the 100A main fuse panel. That will connect the smaller fuse panel directly on the opposite side of the van. (6 AWG (+) and (-)) over to that side so all negatives will return through the same buss bar shown.
Also not shown - the temp sensor cable from charger to battery.
Open to suggestions or critiques.
EDIT: Just another thought into the shelf idea (vs mounting everything to the vertical wall panel.). 1)The wall did not allow for much room - especially since I decided on the bench size/height - so it would have made for a very compact area to package things in - would really hate to have to replace that panel for changing things up. 2) With a shelf - if I don't like the layout of the electrical or want to add external charge or inverter - I have room - and I only need cut a new piece of paneling to mount things to.
Also - in pic 2 - that shelf is sitting on my eventual bench frames. You can see the outline of those frames in the floor (pics 1 &3)
A few changes from my original schematic - mostly changes based on the suggestions above.
1) Added a shunt (BV712 monitor) - I would have done the "shunt-buss" suggested by Hein - but I already had the (-) buss bar purchased.
2) Batteries are 2, 6V Lifeline 220AH.
3) Added provisions for a sub-panel (passenger side) off the main Blue Sea panel (similar to others, but changes the plan after seeing a similar install by ourkaravan!)
4) Changed to breakers vs fuse/switch combos in three places. I'm still using a 50A fuse at the starter battery with Blue Sea 6006 in drivers seat pedestal to shut down the whole system.
Installation/Construction;
1) I fab'd up the battery tray and spotted locations in the subfloor. It's held in place by, 4 3/8 screws to tee nuts - then the tray holds the batteries. Location self explanatory.
2) The whole electrical area will be under a bench seat - but as I wanted to have adequate room for all the electrical hardware (laying flat) - I built a self supported shelf (wood) and frame (aluminum) which will contain all electrical. Then I merely slide the bench frame over the whole works - with a flip up top door for access of course. All easily broken down.
First pic shows the inner electrical frame - the lead (+) wire 2AWG along with a ignition trigger wire is shown on top of the aluminum running to the back of van. It will be connected to the Kisae charger input. Along the wall is the main chassis ground wire. It's connected to a new frame point underneath ( I didn't trust the small, fragile looking OEM point) - and to the end of the buss barr in pic 2.
In both pics 1 & 3 you can see the overall arrangement of the electrical frame over the batteries.
In pic 2 - this is the hardware shelf. I'll be able to wire it (as shown) then just place the whole shelf on the alumni frame and bolt in place (obviously making all the house battery connections first. In the pic you see the cable coming into the shunt which will come directly off the neg of house battery (and only connection on that pole is the shunt).
The charger to house battery (+) connection runs through the 40A breaker -then down underneath to the house battery. The (-) connection to the buss bar.
The 100A Blue Sea Fuse panel is fed (+) from the house batteries, through a 90A breaker, to the (+) of the fuse panel. The (-) connection to the buss bar.
Also planned on running both charger CH1 & CH3 (-) to the buss bar as shown - however, not sure if I should connect the charger output (-) down to the house battery instead (??)
Also shown is the 40A breaker that will be fed off the 100A main fuse panel. That will connect the smaller fuse panel directly on the opposite side of the van. (6 AWG (+) and (-)) over to that side so all negatives will return through the same buss bar shown.
Also not shown - the temp sensor cable from charger to battery.
Open to suggestions or critiques.
EDIT: Just another thought into the shelf idea (vs mounting everything to the vertical wall panel.). 1)The wall did not allow for much room - especially since I decided on the bench size/height - so it would have made for a very compact area to package things in - would really hate to have to replace that panel for changing things up. 2) With a shelf - if I don't like the layout of the electrical or want to add external charge or inverter - I have room - and I only need cut a new piece of paneling to mount things to.
Also - in pic 2 - that shelf is sitting on my eventual bench frames. You can see the outline of those frames in the floor (pics 1 &3)
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robzr
Member
You're not the only one not getting (or not seeing) notifications. I just subscribed.
Nice work! Did you TIG that aluminum frame? That's sharp, and I bet light and strong to boot.
The braided cable cover is
it's gonna be a shame not to see that. You should put some clear plexiglass in the front of the bench to show it off like the stereo guys do Maybe some sweet colored LEDs that pulse to the beat of the music too.
Are those breakers self resetting? Curious why you went that route instead of cheaper fuses.
It's looking great, post some updated shots as you progress!
Nice work! Did you TIG that aluminum frame? That's sharp, and I bet light and strong to boot.
The braided cable cover is
it's gonna be a shame not to see that. You should put some clear plexiglass in the front of the bench to show it off like the stereo guys do Maybe some sweet colored LEDs that pulse to the beat of the music too. Are those breakers self resetting? Curious why you went that route instead of cheaper fuses.
It's looking great, post some updated shots as you progress!
mtncrawler
Active member
Thanks! Appreciate the commentsYou're not the only one not getting (or not seeing) notifications. I just subscribed.
Nice work! Did you TIG that aluminum frame? That's sharp, and I bet light and strong to boot.
The braided cable cover is
Are those breakers self resetting? Curious why you went that route instead of cheaper fuses.
It's looking great, post some updated shots as you progress!
Yes, TIG'ed the frame. It did come out good - probably overkill - but it's done. Note there are no closeups of the weld beads
- I was is a bit of a hurry and wasn't my best day but it's not going anywhere.Ha! the wiring is much uglier in person - not sure I want to draw too much attention to it!
I chose the breakers based on suggestions here. I was planning a switch and a fuse for each one of those legs - but the breaker is much more compact (and cheaper than the two components). Easy to shut down - don't think they self-reset - but they can be readily accessed.
Not much progress otherwise - everything is installed and working (although with my light electrical loads added so far - I've only dropped into the low 90's in terms of SOC of house batteries). The van has been on hold for the past few weeks (another fun non-van fab project) - but ready to take next steps.
I want to add an inverter or inverter charger and/or solar panels. I rarely camp near outlets to do AC/DC charging, so I'm thinking the cost savings of going just the inverter route - will go towards a couple solar panels. Have the solar wiring pre-run and the charger controller is part of the Kisae unit. Next non-electrical project will be aluminum bed frame (elevator style!)
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robzr
Member
I had a Miller DX inverter TIG for a while but I gave up. So if your aluminum welds are holding together thats pretty good in my book
I'm surprised breakers are cheaper than fuses + holders. I would definitely NOT do self resetting breakers, it seems like an ideal way to mask a problem. If you have to reset your breakers, or change your fuses, something is wrong, and the sooner you know what the better, so you can address the root cause.
We have a Samlex 1000w inverter, but the only thing we use it for is a coffee grinder. Tried an AC vacuum but ended up putting a rechargable vacuum with a 12v charger in there. Even using 12v USB-C chargers for our laptops. After living with this setup for a while the only use I can think of for an inverter is a microwave or maybe AC. Pretty much everything else is available in 12v, which is more efficient anyways, most AC stuff just rectifies and steps down anyways, so why take a 10-30% hit on efficiency. Thought about swapping it out for a charger/inverter but our bank + Kisae is more than enough, and we don't boondock for long periods of time (and if we did, we probably wouldn't have AC available), so I don't see a point. We'd probably get one of those little Honda 1000w generators first, but even that seems unnecessary.
The Kisae + Solar is such a great combo, I'm really happy with it.
Rob
I'm surprised breakers are cheaper than fuses + holders. I would definitely NOT do self resetting breakers, it seems like an ideal way to mask a problem. If you have to reset your breakers, or change your fuses, something is wrong, and the sooner you know what the better, so you can address the root cause.
We have a Samlex 1000w inverter, but the only thing we use it for is a coffee grinder. Tried an AC vacuum but ended up putting a rechargable vacuum with a 12v charger in there. Even using 12v USB-C chargers for our laptops. After living with this setup for a while the only use I can think of for an inverter is a microwave or maybe AC. Pretty much everything else is available in 12v, which is more efficient anyways, most AC stuff just rectifies and steps down anyways, so why take a 10-30% hit on efficiency. Thought about swapping it out for a charger/inverter but our bank + Kisae is more than enough, and we don't boondock for long periods of time (and if we did, we probably wouldn't have AC available), so I don't see a point. We'd probably get one of those little Honda 1000w generators first, but even that seems unnecessary.
The Kisae + Solar is such a great combo, I'm really happy with it.
Rob
mtncrawler
Active member
Interesting! - I have a Miller Dynasty 200DX. Bought it new in 2005 - no problems so far - I was on and off fabricating projects for a while but in the last couple years, I've gotten a lot of seat time (for a hobbyist). A lifetime ago - I had couple classes in welding. The DX is a great stick welder as well.I had a Miller DX inverter TIG for a while but I gave up. So if your aluminum welds are holding together thats pretty good in my book
I'm surprised breakers are cheaper than fuses + holders. I would definitely NOT do self resetting breakers, it seems like an ideal way to mask a problem. If you have to reset your breakers, or change your fuses, something is wrong, and the sooner you know what the better, so you can address the root cause.
We have a Samlex 1000w inverter, but the only thing we use it for is a coffee grinder. Tried an AC vacuum but ended up putting a rechargable vacuum with a 12v charger in there. Even using 12v USB-C chargers for our laptops. After living with this setup for a while the only use I can think of for an inverter is a microwave or maybe AC. Pretty much everything else is available in 12v, which is more efficient anyways, most AC stuff just rectifies and steps down anyways, so why take a 10-30% hit on efficiency. Thought about swapping it out for a charger/inverter but our bank + Kisae is more than enough, and we don't boondock for long periods of time (and if we did, we probably wouldn't have AC available), so I don't see a point. We'd probably get one of those little Honda 1000w generators first, but even that seems unnecessary.
The Kisae + Solar is such a great combo, I'm really happy with it.
Rob
To clarify - I said/meant that a fuse (w/holder)+ switch (on/off) combo was less expensive. The breakers are around $30-40 depending on rating/amps/vendor.
Interesting points about the inverter. The only use I think I would have is as laptop charger - and maybe a small appliance. I'm so used to living off my motorcycle, backpacking, BLM car camping, that having a roof over my head and LED lights seems luxurious!
I think the reason I'm considering it now is - I'd like to pre-wire, so I can button things up (at least for a while) and it seems like the time to do it. Adding solar should be pretty straightforward at this point as well.
robzr
Member
That's exactly what I had! Great welder, compact, light, lots of cool accessories... I had big dreams of getting good as with welding aluminum but it didn't come easily.
If you're a Mac guy, you can get USB-C DC chargers that supply 45w over the USB-C port. I worked remote in the Baja in our van using one of these on a 15" i7 MacBook Pro, and it worked beautifully. PCs are moving to USB-C as well. Efficient and you can move it around the van to any accessory port without having to wire in a bunch of 120v outlets.
Rob
If you're a Mac guy, you can get USB-C DC chargers that supply 45w over the USB-C port. I worked remote in the Baja in our van using one of these on a 15" i7 MacBook Pro, and it worked beautifully. PCs are moving to USB-C as well. Efficient and you can move it around the van to any accessory port without having to wire in a bunch of 120v outlets.
Rob
mtncrawler
Active member
Thought I'd add another update...as electrical progress continues. Wired in solar panels that were mounted a couple weeks back and added an inverter. Looks a bit Frankenstein-ish, but it all works. Pulled off the wall panels to add/wire outlets for the "soon to be" cooler and USB outlets.
Should work out great when the bench seats are paneled and have some seat tops!
Should work out great when the bench seats are paneled and have some seat tops!
Attachments
Helpful thread! Thanks for posting and updating along the way.
I'm about to install the Kisae DMT 1250 (replacing a Bluesea ARC and PWM solar controller) and curious where you landed on your (-) connections from the Kisae. It looks like your CH1 and CH3 negatives goes to the shunt and not back to battery terminals, is that correct? And it looks like you didn't use the Kisae's chassis ground point? If so, why not?
Thanks for the help.
I'm about to install the Kisae DMT 1250 (replacing a Bluesea ARC and PWM solar controller) and curious where you landed on your (-) connections from the Kisae. It looks like your CH1 and CH3 negatives goes to the shunt and not back to battery terminals, is that correct? And it looks like you didn't use the Kisae's chassis ground point? If so, why not?
Thanks for the help.
mtncrawler
Active member
Thank you - glad it helped a bit. It was a great learning experience for me. As always, hindsight being 20/20, there were some things in my layout I might do different - but my base system has been running flawlessly now for a while. Although I'm still wondering whether I'm getting true readings (in terms of battery charge %) from my Victron BMS...
To clarify - CH1 & CH3 negatives are connected to my ground buss bar (post shunt). The only thing connected to my actual battery (-) post is the shunt lead. After talking with Kisae (Ricardo) - he made it clear that CH1 and CH3 negatives were bonded on the Kisae terminal - so you only see one negative lead between the Kisae terminals (I think CH1?) and the (-) buss bar. And although not visible, so is the chassis ground point.
Ricardo was super helpful - he even sent me a diagram for my system and updated it for me as I added things. I wouldn't hesitate to call him for help. His contact info is below;
Ricardo Torassa
Technical Support Specialist
Kisae Technology Co., Limited
www.kisaepower.com
ricardo@kisaetechnology.com
+1-604-630-8680 (Ext. 506)
+1-877-897-5778 (direct)
Good luck!
Awesome. More great info. I’ll definitely contact Ricardo. Thank you!
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
How long of a run was that from the starter battery to the house batteries in the very back? I did a rough measurement and it looked like it would be 20+ feet going up the wall, across ceiling, down van, and back down the wall, calling for AWG 1. What did you go with?A little update - my electrical progress in pics.
A few changes from my original schematic - mostly changes based on the suggestions above.
1) Added a shunt (BV712 monitor) - I would have done the "shunt-buss" suggested by Hein - but I already had the (-) buss bar purchased.
2) Batteries are 2, 6V Lifeline 220AH.
3) Added provisions for a sub-panel (passenger side) off the main Blue Sea panel (similar to others, but changes the plan after seeing a similar install by ourkaravan!)
4) Changed to breakers vs fuse/switch combos in three places. I'm still using a 50A fuse at the starter battery with Blue Sea 6006 in drivers seat pedestal to shut down the whole system.
Installation/Construction;
1) I fab'd up the battery tray and spotted locations in the subfloor. It's held in place by, 4 3/8 screws to tee nuts - then the tray holds the batteries. Location self explanatory.
2) The whole electrical area will be under a bench seat - but as I wanted to have adequate room for all the electrical hardware (laying flat) - I built a self supported shelf (wood) and frame (aluminum) which will contain all electrical. Then I merely slide the bench frame over the whole works - with a flip up top door for access of course. All easily broken down.
First pic shows the inner electrical frame - the lead (+) wire 2AWG along with a ignition trigger wire is shown on top of the aluminum running to the back of van. It will be connected to the Kisae charger input. Along the wall is the main chassis ground wire. It's connected to a new frame point underneath ( I didn't trust the small, fragile looking OEM point) - and to the end of the buss barr in pic 2.
In both pics 1 & 3 you can see the overall arrangement of the electrical frame over the batteries.
In pic 2 - this is the hardware shelf. I'll be able to wire it (as shown) then just place the whole shelf on the alumni frame and bolt in place (obviously making all the house battery connections first. In the pic you see the cable coming into the shunt which will come directly off the neg of house battery (and only connection on that pole is the shunt).
The charger to house battery (+) connection runs through the 40A breaker -then down underneath to the house battery. The (-) connection to the buss bar.
The 100A Blue Sea Fuse panel is fed (+) from the house batteries, through a 90A breaker, to the (+) of the fuse panel. The (-) connection to the buss bar.
Also planned on running both charger CH1 & CH3 (-) to the buss bar as shown - however, not sure if I should connect the charger output (-) down to the house battery instead (??)
Also shown is the 40A breaker that will be fed off the 100A main fuse panel. That will connect the smaller fuse panel directly on the opposite side of the van. (6 AWG (+) and (-)) over to that side so all negatives will return through the same buss bar shown.
Also not shown - the temp sensor cable from charger to battery.
Open to suggestions or critiques.
EDIT: Just another thought into the shelf idea (vs mounting everything to the vertical wall panel.). 1)The wall did not allow for much room - especially since I decided on the bench size/height - so it would have made for a very compact area to package things in - would really hate to have to replace that panel for changing things up. 2) With a shelf - if I don't like the layout of the electrical or want to add external charge or inverter - I have room - and I only need cut a new piece of paneling to mount things to.
Also - in pic 2 - that shelf is sitting on my eventual bench frames. You can see the outline of those frames in the floor (pics 1 &3)
mtncrawler
Active member
I didn't route the line up to the wall, to the ceiling. It runs from the battery, through the drivers seat base, into the gap in the drivers footwell (underneath/behind the plastic step). I then drilled a hole into the void that the filler neck runs through and into the lower wall behind the drivers seat base. Then straight down the wall (about 6"-1' off the floor). It exits the wall into my electrical area just above the highpoint of the rear wheel well.
The routing from the drivers footwell area around the fuel neck was a bit tricky - but I installed some conduit between the two body panel points (in the filler neck void) and ran the wires through it. A bit of a pain - but it worked. I actually got the idea from another member. I can still drops the tank with no issues - the conduit/wire formed an arc around the void.
At most, I'd say it was 15ft - I used 2AWG given my DC/DC charger draw of 30amps - it's plenty. I actually installed the wire before settling on the charger.
Hope that helps..I'm going to look at my myriad of pics and see if I can add more detail to the description.
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mtncrawler
Active member
Ok, not great pics, but it's all I have. (NOTE - pics are rotated 90 degrees CCW). Couldn't get them to not rotate when uploaded - so all my comments on direction are in relations to the pics being correctly oriented.
The first pic shows the empty wall cavity behind the drivers seat. The openings (odd shaped) down lower (intersecting the reinforcement rib) are factory. I drilled the 1" hole above that. That hole enters the cavity formed (partially) by the B-Pillar.
The second pic shows the face of the body (partially forming the front side of the B-Pillar below floor level) made visible when you remove the plastic footwell/step. The black strip on the right of the hole is the door seal strip. The wire can be routed out from underneath the seat base directly into this cavity/space that's left open with the plastic step in place. None of this is visible once the step is re-installed.
For better reference - get underneath the van and follow the fuel filler neck as it enters the body through the oval shaped foam gasket. If you remove this gasket and shine a flashlight up there - you'll see the entire cavity formed inside the B-Pillar.
So basically, I routed some flexible conduit between the two 1" holes I drilled (in my case, I keep that to the outside of the fuel filler neck so I could drop my gas tank without interference) and ran the wires inside the conduit.
The first pic shows the empty wall cavity behind the drivers seat. The openings (odd shaped) down lower (intersecting the reinforcement rib) are factory. I drilled the 1" hole above that. That hole enters the cavity formed (partially) by the B-Pillar.
The second pic shows the face of the body (partially forming the front side of the B-Pillar below floor level) made visible when you remove the plastic footwell/step. The black strip on the right of the hole is the door seal strip. The wire can be routed out from underneath the seat base directly into this cavity/space that's left open with the plastic step in place. None of this is visible once the step is re-installed.
For better reference - get underneath the van and follow the fuel filler neck as it enters the body through the oval shaped foam gasket. If you remove this gasket and shine a flashlight up there - you'll see the entire cavity formed inside the B-Pillar.
So basically, I routed some flexible conduit between the two 1" holes I drilled (in my case, I keep that to the outside of the fuel filler neck so I could drop my gas tank without interference) and ran the wires inside the conduit.
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thank you, very helpful. I'm also trying to get cable to the back of the van and I didn't want to go under/outside all the way back and I also didn't want to see a little bit of wire coming out the drivers seat as it entered the pillar. This seems like what I was thinking about. thanks!
robzr
Member
Really nice seeing your handiwork, you do nice work. My interactions with Kisae were very good as well, they were knowledgable and helpful. Still super happy with my Kisae.
Just gonna throw it out there - if you're charging off an alternator, the gauge is gonna be less important, because whats a couple % drop in voltage, when it's all lost in the noise of internal combustion inefficiency. In our setup, we charge off the MB aux battery, which acts as a first tier to our house battery, so that % drop is a little more worthy of consideration. Super happy with the tier'd approach BTW, the Kisae cuts it off right about 50% discharge, it's like a free (or dirt cheap) 45 aH extra.
Rob
Just gonna throw it out there - if you're charging off an alternator, the gauge is gonna be less important, because whats a couple % drop in voltage, when it's all lost in the noise of internal combustion inefficiency. In our setup, we charge off the MB aux battery, which acts as a first tier to our house battery, so that % drop is a little more worthy of consideration. Super happy with the tier'd approach BTW, the Kisae cuts it off right about 50% discharge, it's like a free (or dirt cheap) 45 aH extra.
Rob
mtncrawler
Active member
Thinking about this - in hindsight - I don’t think it would have been an issue routing it outside. Just using some decent conduit/protection. On my system -I ran a sub panel from the drivers side fuse panel back underneath the van in strategic locations to rear passenger side wheel well. I used some glued heat shrink on both wires and also had that encapsulated in wire loom. It’s worked fine.
Kevin.Hutch
2011 Mercedes 313 906
I go under the vehicle where it is easier to consider the location of the cable with respect to unforeseen crash damage and ensure both ends from both sources are protected by fuse or CB.
Another NOOB here seeking some input. I'm planning a similar system on a van with OM651 2.1l which has the "smart" 250A alternator (which I understand lowers its output to ~13.0v after 15 or so mins) and EK1 connection. This will be a weekender type van with shorter trips (30mins-2hrs charging times) and be used to power a Dometic cooler, Espar D2, Maxair fan. I'm leaning towards (2) 6v 250 a/h AGM batteries. I like that the Kisae DMT has the solar inputs so I can add a portable solar panel later.
-Does the Kisae DMT1230 make more sense for the lighter planned electrical loads and smart alternator?
-What is the best location for house batteries operated in arctic temperatures (-20 to 30F) much of the year?
-Will adding a AC charger to the system to top up the batteries at home be helpful to reduce the demand on the alternator?
Thanks in advance!
-Does the Kisae DMT1230 make more sense for the lighter planned electrical loads and smart alternator?
-What is the best location for house batteries operated in arctic temperatures (-20 to 30F) much of the year?
-Will adding a AC charger to the system to top up the batteries at home be helpful to reduce the demand on the alternator?
Thanks in advance!