Going Solar

WestyTat

Member
Hello everyone.
This post is my attempt to gather all related information about adding Solar panels to Westy in one place.
If there is a thead and I missed it - please point it out.:-\
There is tons if good info within this forum and all over internet (HandyBobSolar comes to mind...) But NOT in one spot!

Since I am replacing OEMs Exide house batteries with Trojan Gels, I want to add Solar panels to keep those bats topped up while boondocking.

So here is my list of questions:
1. Solar panels brand to consider? Mono or poly crystal? Semi-flex?
2 .wattage (will 2x100watt will be enough to keep batteries charged when used only for fridge and fan?) Found 180 watt panels, but too big to fit on the roof behind the skylight (no AC on the roof)
3. Mounting solutions (3M double sided auto tape? Screws? Silicone?)
4. Controller - what brand to go with? I am considering Samlex SCC-30AB since its designed for gel batteries. Any other brands to consider?
5. Wiring .

Thanks in advance!
 

triple7

New member
That would be great, could you add the links you already found? Then it could be added to the Sticky.

My thoughts for a solar panel would have 2 of them that you can fold together for traveling. Then when setting up camp, park the Westy in the shade (if possible) and set up the solar panels in the most optimum sunny spot.


Cheers,
-illya
 

OldWest

2004 T1N Westfalia
Answers to Questions.

1. Solar Panels.

Have limited space on roof so need to go with most efficient panels (usually Monocrystalline, Sunpower? Cells). Rules out Polycrystalline and Amorphous Cells.

Want lightweight panels to avoid more Weebles Wobble. This rules out rigid frame glass panels.

Unless remove AC, roof is curved so semiflexible panels make sense (flexible panels are usually amorphous and not productive enough).

Solbian (Italian made) at bruceschwab.com are semiflexible, efficient, and expensive panels. Can mount two of them (each 100 watt) on the curved roof area with 3M Dual Lock tape--will need to trim overlapping areas of panel down centerline of vehicle.

Other options include cheaper semiflexible panels which may be fine even if last shorter time, polycarbonate backing panels and rivet mechanical mounting for better air circulation (cooler panels work better), rigid panels mounted on custom frame like kayak/surfboard lifts on side of fiberglass top, etc.
 

OldWest

2004 T1N Westfalia
2. Wattage

200 watts fixed on curved portion of roof is enough to boondock indefinitely to run fridge, bathroom Fantastic Fan, lights, recharge computer/toothbrushes/camera batteries, top off engine battery, etc.

Caveats include--use more stuff in afternoon when solar panels have already topped off coach batteries, orient vehicle solar panels in right direction (winter sun is lower), etc.

No big inverter use like microwave.

Rule of thumb is one solar watt per amp-hr of battery storage.

Can probably survive indefinitely with a portable 100 watt panel if move panel periodically during day.
 

OldWest

2004 T1N Westfalia
3. Mounting

For semiflexible panels, 3M Dual Lock (mushroom like Velcro around perimeter of panel and support strips for rest of panel works great. The Dual Lock allows the credit card thick semiflexible panels to curve nicely around the roof's compound curvature (otherwise, if glued the perimeter of solar panel, would get bunching/wrinkles).

A gap at the lowest point of solar panels to allow any moisture to drip out.

Front edge caulked with Lexel to prevent any wind lift.

Can remove panels if necessary and remount.

Permanent type double-sided tapes, adhesives, etc. Are a nightmare to remove (destroying panels in process).

For rigid glass panel (in lieu of Air Conditioner), look for plastic corner blocks which adhere to roof. Much more attractive than bent metal mounts. for example,

http://www.lowenergydevelopments.com.au/Corner-Mounting-Brackets-Set

Another aesthetic option is rounded or triangular metal mounting frames used by one Westy owner--much nicer than square.

In all these examples, using adhesive.

Another possibility if want mechanical fasteners is a type of rivet mount with a polycarbonate panel support back for air circulation--see OneManVan.
 

OldWest

2004 T1N Westfalia
4. Controller

Put controller as close to batteries as possible for maximum charging of batteries.

Consider a controller which can also recharge engine battery (or look for a Trik-L-Start which siphons off from coach batteries to engine battery).

For smaller solar setups (less than 300-400 watts), MPPT is not better than PWM controllers (see Morningstar White Paper). MPPT controllers use energy to operate so worthwhile for larger setups where energy usage is offset by greater output.

Can also consider multiple small controllers.

Best name brand is Morningstar. Lots of different ones. Currently have the small 15 amp MPPT one for 200 watts of solar panel. Small size fits nicely under kitchen sink.

Next time, would go to larger size so can hookupna portable panel too.

HandyBobSolar points out that BogartEngineering now has a controllee.

Bogart has nice meter.

Do not use the Xantrex LinkLite meter (has really nice small size but problematic).
 

OldWest

2004 T1N Westfalia
5. Wiring

Biggest deal is right size (gauge). Look at length of wiring run and voltage drop.

For bigger systems, can offset (go with thinner) wiring gauge by going with higher voltage solar panels and a controller which can handle higher voltages.

Also, same issue for wiring from controller to coach batteries.

For easiest if not aesthetic route, run through the air vent above upper kitchen cabinet.

For more aesthetic look, run through air conditioner cabinet, down corner in van body and then behind bottom kitchen cabinet.

Do not need a combiner box for 200 watts of solar panels--just run wires directly with connectors.

For portable panel options, one plug in option was located below large awning window on driver side near coach batteries. Another alternative is to retrofit telephone jack as a solar connection hookup.

OneManVan for smaller portable set up just uses existing 12 volt outlets (run wire through open skylight or rest right under skylight and plug into 12 volt outlet on upper kitchen cabinet. Can also plug into engine 12 volt outlets to recharge engine battery.
 

OldWest

2004 T1N Westfalia
6. Other

Don't forget fuses.

Also, controller should be connected to temperature sensor to adjust controller voltage by temp of coach batteries (higher voltage into batteries when colder).

For long term, consider whether controller should be able to handle other types of batteries (gel, AGM, lithium) or not worth the hassle now.

DIY is a realistic option, especially with all the expertise of so many Westy owners.

If need more advanced help, HandyBobSolar (if available) and John Palmer in Florida both want you involved to understand how it works.

John Palmer installed a Morningstar SureSine inverter for me (and I helped watch and pull some wires).
His rates are ridiculously low (think he works more for fun). He also let me borrow tools, ladder, etc., for free on my DIY solar panel installation.

For most of my system (other than solar panels), I used AMSolar for the installation, but can only recommend with strong reservations/caveats re price, quality of work, and follow-up. For buying pieces of solar panel, they should be fine.

Northern Arizona Wind Sun was also fine to order stuff.

Can recommend bruceschwab.com highly for solar panels if willing to go the marine panel route.
 

OldWest

2004 T1N Westfalia
7. Storage

Mentioned in another thread but repeated here.

Even with a portable set uup, semiflexible panels are much thinner and lighter so easier to set up and store.

If don't use dining table, can use that storage for portable solar panel set up.

Other locations include back of bathroom wall behind rear doors, behind rear seat back, behnd front driver seat, etc.

8. Other Additional Thoughts

Solar panels come in lots of sizes to fit the curved roof area, on top of skylight?, beneath skylight resting on ledge?, in area instead of air conditioner, on side of vehicle?, etc.

Be interesting to see photos.

Check our German friends' website for photos of their solar installs.
 

onemanvan

Active member
Heed previous advice regarding semi-flexible solar panels... I purchased a couple of 100 watt semi-flexible panels 'made in china' and several years later they are trash! The PET film is delaminating... For use as a 'portable' panel they are OK because they won't be exposed to full sun 24/7 365 days a year so will last longer... Portable may very well be the best way to go. Concur Morningstar controllers are very good! This outfit offers a good assortment of Anderson Powerpole 'plug & play' connectors and cables: http://goo.gl/n8i3QR

Note this comment from another forum:

In recent times (since about March 2013), we have seen the emergence from China of
a range of semi flexible polymer based panels. Of course in this case we are dealing
with lower labour costs in the manufacture, but there are significant differences in the
construction method as well. In this case, the cells are encapsulated between two very
thin layers of EVA (Ethyl Vinyl Acetate). Then a back and top sheet are laminated in
place. Importantly, the top sheet is a PET (same as the plastic used in a drink bottle).
We believe that the PET will not have the same UV stability as the Solbian product
and the panel will have a life of about 4 to 5 years with full sun exposure. A gradual
fading of the top surface would reduce the amount of sunlight available to the cells
and the power of the panel would start to fall away. Also, the PET does tend to get a
bit soft in very high heat, which lowers the cell stability within the panel. This can
lead to micro breakages of the cells and an associated drop in power.
 

Attachments

OldWest

2004 T1N Westfalia
9. Does solar make sense?

Solar makes sense for those who boondock or drycamp (no hookups) unless they drive a lot every day.

Solar panels can top off the last 20 percent or more of the batteries which would otherwise require hookups for hours and hours or driving for hours and hours.

For those who primarily weekend and can plug in every week, solar may not be worth the expense.

With 200 watts of solar panels, no need to ever hookup except if several days of rain (or presumably clouds in the Pacific NorthWest). Less solar needed if drive. More solar if had bigger inverter for microwave/blender (and more batteries).

For me, solar was definitely worthwhile. But if I were to do over again, I would have gone to John Palmer in Florida for the installation Or imposed on some of the knowledgeable Westy owners for their help.

Equipment choices would have been different. Would have lived with the bigger Bogart Engineering meter (instead of small aesthetic but problematic Xantrex LinkLite), a larger solar controller, and a TrikLStart to engine battery.

Pearls of Wisdom.

There are several highly regarded manufacturers who have quality and excellent follow-up (Morningstar). There are other manufacturers who may have had good products but changed and also poor followup.

If handy, some cheaper options may be fine as can just fix or dispose. If not as handy, may want better quality components.
 

OldWest

2004 T1N Westfalia
10. Heights

Scaffolding is the best way to do a solar install. The Westy curves inward at top, so a stepladder does not work well. Similarly, leaning a regular ladder against fiberglass top doesn't feel right (lean on edge not sides). AMSolar has a power lift but expensive to buy/rent.

A plank of wood across top of hood (ends held by scaffolding on each side) gives access to front edge of roof.

If working on curved portion of roof, elevate front end of van with RhinoRamps or Lego Lynx type blocks so curved portion of roof is more parallel to ground.

Open upper bunk to use as platform.

I removed acrylic skylight (arm brackets and hinges) to work on top of roof.

OneManVan just unscrewed skylight hinges so fully opened skylight would tilt backwards on arms for access to curved roof.

Safety first.
 

WestyTat

Member
Thank you all for great information. Let's keep it alive ( at least for a while B-) )
Yes, jackfish, gels. Why?
1. Gel batteries are recommended by our manufacturer.
2. More Amp/h
3. Longer life.
4. Less sensitive to temperature fluctuations.
5. No maintenance required.
6. 3 times more discharging cycles than AGMs.

T.
 

jackfish

Active member
Your charging equipment had better be up to the task, otherwise those gels will be ruined in short order. Lifeline/Concorde disagrees with much of your stated advantages for gels. I can't get my head around many of your points as IMHO they are not borne out by the literature or experience.

http://bdbatteries.com/agmvsgel.php

I'll take this AM Solar quote to the bank, "It is our opinion that the "gel-cell" type batteries have proven to be inadequate in deep cycle environments and we do not recommend them."
 

WestyTat

Member
Your charging equipment had better be up to the task, otherwise those gels will be ruined in short order. Lifeline/Concorde disagrees with much of your stated advantages for gels. I can't get my head around many of your points as IMHO they are not borne out by the literature or experience.

http://bdbatteries.com/agmvsgel.php

I'll take this AM Solar quote to the bank, "It is our opinion that the "gel-cell" type batteries have proven to be inadequate in deep cycle environments and we do not recommend them."
Point taken!
Maybe I was reading wrong articles. There are as many opinions as there are people or websites. Back to homework. Thanks for averting me for potentially making a mistake :)
 

OldWest

2004 T1N Westfalia
Whether gel or AGM, key is to match charging regimen with battery.

Gel: As original coach batteries were gel (and Westfalia may still be equipping with gels as of a couple of years ago), the onboard battery charger is set for lower charging voltage (14.0 v?) and for maximum of 10 amps.

The central computer console above windshield also shows 10 bars state of charge based on gel. There may be a switch on back of the console to switch to different type of battery (not sure what effect would be).

AGMs: Getting more popular and easier to find. Supposedly more vibration resistant and quicker to recharge (able to take higher charging current).

As far as number of discharge/charge cycles, specs differ depending on manufacturer of gel and AGM.

That voltage and low amperage charging current may be too low for some AGM batteries.

OneManVan did post a way to adjust the voltage on the onboard charger.

The engine alternator may provide the higher charging current some AGMs might like (one advantagd of the AGMs is the ability to charge more quickly).

Central computer console will show only 7 or 8 bars even when AGMs are fully charged.

Conclusion: Some Westy owners replaced with gels and some replaced with AGMs. And some have apparently gone to Lithiums!

Can't wait for Lithiums to come down in price as more cycles and much lighter weight!
 

OldWest

2004 T1N Westfalia
Following the intrepid leadership of other Westy owners, I replaced mine with Sears Platinum Group 31 AGM (apparently rebadged Odyssey batteries). Although onboard charger is poor match for these batteries, I figure (a) don't discharge heavily so higher charging current preferred would not be happening, (b) solar set up provides higher charging voltage, and (c) engine alternator would provide the lots of amperage preferred if batteries discharged a lot.
 

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