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Old 09-30-2018, 12:16 AM   #41
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Default Re: Green diesel any one?

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I WANT to like nukes. The advantages are clear. But, for the reasons you state, I just can't. ...
But...
In a macro sense, it will not be any nuclear generating plant disaster which will set humanity back into the dark ages. It will be an overall failure of the systems to provide the masses the power which they absolutely depend upon so much. Keeping the overall grid supplied and operating is absolutely paramount. Everyone is for the environment until it affects their lifestyle.

You doubt my logic? Watch most anyone these days as they go into minor panic mode when there is no way to charge their dying cell phone battery. And cell phones do nothing to provide us food and shelter.

Back to topic.

vic
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Old 09-30-2018, 12:27 AM   #42
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Default Re: Green diesel any one?

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But...
In a macro sense, it will not be any nuclear generating plant disaster which will set humanity back into the dark ages. It will be an overall failure of the systems to provide the masses the power which they absolutely depend upon so much. Keeping the overall grid supplied and operating is absolutely paramount. Everyone is for the environment until it affects their lifestyle.

You doubt my logic? Watch most anyone these days as they go into minor panic mode when there is no way to charge their dying cell phone battery. And cell phones do nothing to provide us food and shelter.
But...
If it were nuclear or chaos, I would certainly accept the risks, which I agree are bounded. But, as I said, there are much better alternatives that appear to be perfectly practical.
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Back to topic.
No thank you. This one is better.
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Old 09-30-2018, 12:50 AM   #43
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Default Re: Green diesel any one?

Two famous quotes come to mind. Lewis Strauss was appointed by Eisenhower as Chairman, Atomic Energy Commission in 1953. He's famousmformthis quote: In 1954, Strauss predicted that atomic power would make electricity "too cheap to meter." Regarded as fanciful even at the time, the quote is now seen as damaging to the industry's credibility.

As we now know, it never happened that it would end up being "cheap power".

I worked form the Nuclear Regulatory Commission and in 1991 when Ivan Selin (PhD EE from Yale & PhD in Math from U of Paris) made one of his first speeches. At them time, industry and regulators were looking at creating Advanced Reactors that would be built more quickly and were identical & modular to reduce costs and speed up safety improvements as needed. Iselin said:

"In France they have one kind (design) of reactor and 120 kinds of cheese. In the US, we have 120 kinds of reactors and one kind of cheese."

120 reactors because each one is similar to it's cousins (GE, WESTINGHOUSE) but individually designed and modified to suit the site and application. Almost everything is individualized right down procedures. Not much is the same. And that is a big expense and safety issue.

Regarding "barge power", at NRC I worked with two retired Army Officers. Both were USMA grads; Corps of Engineers, combat vets from Korea & VN, fancy post grad degrees and both were qualified reactor operators for the Army reactors. They told me about the adventures concerning Army nuclear power and MH-1A. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/MH-1A

Barge power is pretty cool and the Sturgis had a longish and important contribution in power production. I don't think any regulator would approve one today considering the threat levels and decommissioning problems.
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Old 09-30-2018, 01:57 AM   #44
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Default Re: Green diesel any one?

The China Syndrome.

Three Mile Island.

The entertainment industry found a windfall and was victorious. The U.S. energy industry lost. (Three Mile Island was the convergence of most all of the things that could go wrong. The safety systems kept it basically contained as designed. There really wasn't any China Syndrome style meltdown)

I'm an old guy living in the past...
Oh wait. I've learned recently that I'm a privileged xxxxx xxxxx xxxxx xxxxx xxxxx and part of the power structure. - Retired.

I retract that as unproductive.

vic
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Old 09-30-2018, 02:14 AM   #45
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Default Re: Green diesel any one?

I can't resist yet another Bucky Fuller aphorism:

In arguing for renewable energy (way ahead of his time), he made the case that Earth was bequeathed with oil to serve the same function as the starter battery in a car--a short-term energy source needed to get things rolling. So, he said, running the economy on oil is like powering your car on the starter battery. Nuclear, he said, was like powering the car by burning pieces of it.

That last part was maybe not his most persuasive argument, but I still think it is cute.
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Old 09-30-2018, 03:35 AM   #46
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Default Re: Green diesel any one?

China Syndrome hit the screens in March 79. TMI about 12 days later. We we 90 miles south of TMI in MD. A day after TMI, the 'hood was nearly a ghost town because everyone and their cats and dogs bailed out. Kind of funny.

I knew some of the guys who worked TMI response. Particularly Harold Denton, President Carter's hand picked personal representative and a handful of Engineers supporting our Region I office from HQ. These men were largely unassuming low maintenance guys but very smart. Geeks without pocket protectors. One worked out criticality calculations and the hydrogen bubble problem at home using memory and slide rule***. Interesting times and place to work.

***Because was middle of the night and we didn't have an agency computer. We used the computers at NIH and ancient programming. It would have taken too much time to get answers. Also, I think they were concerned about some one hacking the process and spinning up mis-information about the ongoing event. So, one guy, at home, pencils, paper and slide rule.
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Last edited by Old Crows; 09-30-2018 at 03:48 AM.
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Old 09-30-2018, 05:11 AM   #47
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Default Re: Green diesel any one?

WOW! Touchy subject. I didn't know this was an energy forum. Anyway you all sound real smart and should be put in charge (but I know, you're busy enjoying your vans). Nothing wrong with that I say.

My prediction is that someday there will be a car battery size box, maybe fuel cell with simple hydrogen synthesis front end, that creates enough to power your home, boat, car and upscalable for buildings, ships and planes. As a result, say goodbye to transmission lines and everything used today becomes obsolete, but unfortunately the tax payer will end up paying for the removal of everything left behind by the rich developers of those items.

Taking the conversation back down to the van level, as I sit here on Saturday night listening to cars and trucks racing all night, it is evident that most of them don't give a rats arse about their fuel, tire and wear and tear expense as well as the environment. That's just the way it has become.

AL
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Old 09-30-2018, 05:47 AM   #48
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Default Re: Green diesel any one?

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My prediction is that someday there will be a car battery size box, maybe fuel cell with simple hydrogen synthesis front end, that creates enough to power your home, boat, car and upscalable for buildings, ships and planes.
I predict someday bicycles will become primary mode of personal transportation.

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...I sit here on Saturday night listening to cars and trucks racing all night, it is evident that most of them don't give a rats arse about their fuel, tire and wear and tear expense as well as the environment. That's just the way it has become.
AL
That's because most people drive with their heads up their patooties.
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Old 09-30-2018, 07:10 AM   #49
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Default Re: Green diesel any one?

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All of this is irrelevant because humankind is destroying the earth by the fallacy of "Better living through Science." Extra credit for an example of a science not creating more problems than it has solved?

Happy GMO

Da NOx
Bob - well I became an engineer at least in part due to that adv, so I can't really deny that aspect. Science and engineering aren't as much the issue as much as people twisting it into what they want to happen.

Probably everyone can look at their industry / job and imagine how it might be done better for society - even yours is run sub optimally.
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Old 09-30-2018, 03:00 PM   #50
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Default Re: Green diesel any one?

Quote:
Originally Posted by CaptnALinTiverton View Post
...

Taking the conversation back down to the van level, as I sit here on Saturday night listening to cars and trucks racing all night, it is evident that most of them don't give a rats arse about their fuel, tire and wear and tear expense as well as the environment. That's just the way it has become.

AL


Quote:
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... Everyone is for the environment until it affects their lifestyle.
...
vic
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