End of an error - goodbye lemon!

3mbusa

New member
To bad you had such a terrible experience. Did you tell the new owner about any still existing problems? Many states have laws requiring you to reveal any existing problems. :thinking:

Wishing you better luck with your next vehicle -- what will it be?
 

BoulderDoug

New member
Yes, it has gone back to meet its maker, so I’m pretty sure that they’re aware of any existing problems. And, I would hope that information would be passed on to any new owner at auction time.

Dennis - as far as “the ultimate problem that broke the camel's back” – there really wasn’t one last thing, it was just a matter of how much time the van had spent in the shop. I think that they might have actually gotten most of the gremlins fixed on it’s last trip in, but I can’t be completely sure because I only drove it a hundred miles or so after that. I was more concerned about the long term effectiveness of the way that they’d “fixed” the oil leak that I had early on.

With that being said – I think this van might actually be a good deal for whoever ends up with it after it’s auctioned off by MBUSA, provided that the price is right and they’re willing to deal with the “known issues”.

Maybe the new owner will google the VIN number and come across my previous posts here. I’d be happy to share what I know with him or her in that case.
 

BoulderDoug

New member
And, let me say this – I had high hopes and big plans for this van. I really wanted to love it as much as most of you guys seem to love your Sprinters. In response to gary_32’s (deleted) comment yesterday about what I’d realize “once I found myself missing all the positives” about the vehicle – yes, there were a lot of things that I liked (and now miss) about the Sprinter.

To name a few - I miss all the room it had, and the fact that it allowed me to load just about anything I wanted, and take it to almost anywhere I wanted to go, including the kids, grandkids, dogs and all the associated gear. I’ll just have to rent a van for those occasions in the future. We miss having the room to enjoy "indoor dining" in foul weather. I miss the way the van drove (when it was drivable), and it got reasonably good mileage for a vehicle of its size. It did a pretty good job of pulling my little camping trailer, (although truthfully – my Liberty CRD does better).

So yes, there are a lot of things that I’ll miss about the Sprinter, but I’ll get over it.

Dennis – I remember when I came to your place to do some diagnostics and you made the comment that if MB would just let Toyota do the wiring on the Sprinters that it would eliminate 90% of their problems… well, I ended up getting a 4WD Tacoma. Yeah, it’s way smaller, but it will serve my purposes for now and allow me to get to way more places that I want to go, I’ll just have to adjust to taking less stuff with me!

Some things about the Toyota that are a refreshing change - climate system controls that you can actually understand, that work as they should, and stay where you put them when you turn off the car (like not having to start at 72 degrees and adjust the temp in tiny increments). Actual air flow from whatever vents I choose without a magic genie that tries to adjust anything for me. Keyless entry remotes that actually work from a hundred feet away regardless of the phase of the moon or what color shirt I happen to be wearing. A real knob to dim the dash lights without having to go through multiple layers of on-screen menus. Wipers (and headlights, for that matter) that do what they’re told regardless of whether it’s raining or dark or whatever. Also a TPMS system that I haven't heard a peep from in 7,000 miles... and if I ever air down or rotate the tires - there's a little reset button under the dash. No need to consult the manual or navigate layers of menus. Oh yeah, I know that someone is gonna comment that nobody should rely on a TPMS, but if it's mandated equipment - shouldn't it be at least somewhat reliable? Can anyone out there say that they're really satisfied with the way that theirs performs?

I never was able to make much sense of the interior light switching in my 12 seater Sprinter either, especially for the furthest rear dome light. It’s nice to have interior lights that work without any delays, or dimming, or other hocus-pocus… just a three position switch, on-off-door. Simplicity is key!

No beeping or warnings or flashing lights or other auto-corrections when I'm changing lanes. (come on guys – I grew up learning how to use my mirrors and thinking for myself!)

I think that these modern hi-tech vehicles have just gotten far too complex. They try to do way too much for the driver, and as we all know - that can create a lot of problems. And when something goes haywire - most dealers have no clue how to diagnose what's going on. They just keep throwing parts at them until something makes a difference. And - before you start lambasting me - I'm not talking about just MB!

Another nice thing about the Toyota is all the aftermarket stuff that’s available, and all the mods that can be done (electrical and otherwise), without having to worry about pissing off the troll that lives under the hood. The user base is HUGE – check out a forum like the one at tacomaworld.com – a lot more positive information with what seems to be far fewer reports of “issues”.

Another determining factor for me was that there’s probably what, maybe 10 times as many Toyota repair facilities in the U.S. as there are Sprinter? With the experiences that I had – the thought of a 500 mile tow was something that always loomed in the back of my mind when driving the Sprinter in far-away places. I previously owned two of the 80’s style Toyota vans, both of which made it to nearly 400k miles, with only 4 or 5 trips to the dealer between the two. The only tow-truck experiences for those two were their final journeys to the graveyard.

So who knows - maybe Toyota will be allowed to import one of their Sprinter equivalents to the states one of these days? That’s the van I’ll be waiting for.
 
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gary 32

07 ncv3 pv
goodbye to a dream that almost worked

Doug,

I erased my thread because several did not understand the process.
I managed to keep mine twice for a total of 7 years and I loved it, my kids too.

But a rocky start like we both experienced takes every confidence away.
I understand your truck choice, my daily now is a Ram 1500, 2wd regular cab 8' bed, purchased new for 18k plus taxes and fees.

Here in the US trucks are easier.
 

NelsonSprinter

Former Nelson BC Sprinter
It is satisfying to see a lemon go back to it's maker, even if it takes 6 months of hell, it shouldn't stay with the victim that long
 

BoulderDoug

New member
Ah yes, Gary - I remember your story about your previous experience(s) with your van, that post of yours was one thing that got me started looking into this process.

I have to admit that overall I'm pretty happy with the way that MBUSA handled this thing for me, relatively painless.

And also - I appreciate the title "goodbye to a dream that almost worked" - that's kind of the way I feel...

As far as "everything in life is fixable", I'm just not sure that I'm equipped to be the one to fix it at this point in my life.

And about certain vehicles being easier in the US - I had similar issues with a '97 Saab that we owned... I think that some vehicles are just too foreign for this market.
 

Graphite Dave

Dave Orton
Re: goodbye to a dream that almost worked

Here in the US trucks are easier.
Maybe a F150 with a steel box body might be a good idea?

Unfortunately a Transit also has a CAN bus and a has been touched by the electronic engineers in order to make a simple machine complicated.

Hopefully better than the Sprinter. At least I can understand the HVAC controls, I have service available everywhere and the automatic transmission is automatic. We will see if it is more reliable. Time will tell.
 
Re: goodbye to a dream that almost worked

Doug,

I erased my thread because several did not understand the process.
I managed to keep mine twice for a total of 7 years and I loved it, my kids too.

But a rocky start like we both experienced takes every confidence away.
I understand your truck choice, my daily now is a Ram 1500, 2wd regular cab 8' bed, purchased new for 18k plus taxes and fees.

Here in the US trucks are easier.
US trucks easier? I wish that were true.

Before buying my Sprinter i had a 2012 Ford Raptor and a 2012 F250 SD diesel. The F250 was in the shop every 3k miles for sensor replacement and the last time it was at the dealership for over a month waiting for sensors. The sun roof also broke twice in the open position and total replacement is required, in two years and 20k miles there was a total down time of 90 days that it was at the dealership.

The Raptor was no exception, broken sun roof, same part breaks on all of them and electrical issues one after another, there were so many that i can not name them all. Two years of ownership and 15k miles with 120 days at the dealership for repairs.

I do not care how many dealers Ford has as service and customer treatment is sub-par, i used three different dealerships and once they see the trucks service records they get nasty as if they do not want to be bothered. On both trucks combined the purchase price was around 130k i at least expect a smile.
 

BoulderDoug

New member
Yes, I also looked at the Transits before getting the Tacoma. Came real close to ordering one...

Then, I starting looking at the Transit forums (something I wish I'd done before ordering the Sprinter!). Seemed like we were looking at possibly a six-month lead time (even though the dealer was telling me 8 weeks)... AND... seemed to be lots of problems similar to Sprinter issues, especially electrical stuff. Hence the little Toyota.

Like I said - if Toyota ever brings in a large Hi-Ace or small Coaster type van/bus, that's what I'll be looking at
 

Graphite Dave

Dave Orton
Re: sueno importante

Boulder Doug,
Dreams are really important.
After I sold back my Sprinter I purchased a new 2009 tdi sportwagon, only had it for about 3 months before I started looking for another Sprinter. My vin was one of the 1st I found and it was perfect so I bought it back with all issues resolved and a warranty to cover the rest, sold it after 7 years with everything working perfectly, it was worth all my effort.

Dave you just traded sideways, look @ Hollow Wave's note about ford service...

I purposefully purchased the lowest cost simplest truck I could find, roll down windows, manual locks, a key. I have installed leather seats, replaced 7 speakers, added a sub, bronzed the steel wheels, 55 watt xenon projector headlights, leveled it, and installed a bed cover. Love it.
Transit does drive better and so far with 8000 miles no problems. We will see. I also bought it with as few electronic things that I could. Fun drive with EcoBoost.

I also have a simple 2003 Dodge Dakota single cab with a V8, 5 speed, roll down windows, limited slip, handling package, rear disc brakes that I bought new. Added a rear anti-roll bar to limit the understeering. Neat very crude truck that is very fun to drive. Only problems in 90,000 miles were the LS rear was replaced under warranty and two emission sensors. This is a 60's muscle car in disguise. It was a great tow vehicle for delivering my conveyors on my 6' x 12' flatbed trailer.
 

lindenengineering

Well-known member
Re: goodbye to a dream that almost worked

US trucks easier? I wish that were true.

Before buying my Sprinter i had a 2012 Ford Raptor and a 2012 F250 SD diesel. The F250 was in the shop every 3k miles for sensor replacement and the last time it was at the dealership for over a month waiting for sensors. The sun roof also broke twice in the open position and total replacement is required, in two years and 20k miles there was a total down time of 90 days that it was at the dealership.

The Raptor was no exception, broken sun roof, same part breaks on all of them and electrical issues one after another, there were so many that i can not name them all. Two years of ownership and 15k miles with 120 days at the dealership for repairs.

I do not care how many dealers Ford has as service and customer treatment is sub-par, i used three different dealerships and once they see the trucks service records they get nasty as if they do not want to be bothered. On both trucks combined the purchase price was around 130k i at least expect a smile.
Quote
"used three different dealerships and once they see the trucks service records they get nasty as if they do not want to be bothered."

To understand that "malaise" you need to understand the dynamics that which goes on within dealerships and the universal policy by the big three on who actually does warranty work.
In short it must be a factory certified tech who has a pass off to do such remedial warranty work/ rectification.
If the dealer doesn't use one of these "types" then he/shop doesn't get paid!
Now
Factor in the factory reimbursement rates for warranty work are lower than regular retail!
Remember the warranty time is usually 2/3rds of regular book time.

If the tech who is handed the job is a top earner then he is going to be less that eager to spend time fixing something that is complicated and makes him take more time than allotted for the task, because he is going to be fixing the rig you have on his dime if he doesn't follow the time allotted !

Consider for a moment if his pay stub is lower one week doing nothing but warranty work can you imagine what is missus is going to say when there is less in the bank than last! That is human nature!
AND
Believe me most of us grubby hands brigade (techs /mechs) are less than enthusiastic about the products we fix!

To be blunt, most of us are not "in love" with these POS vehicles like the average Joe Blow the customer, they are as I say consumer durables. in spite of what is spouted out on the dealer sales floor!

Now Ford has some of the best electrical ISO standards in the business and their vehicle operating systems called IDS also found on Jags and Landrovers (post 2006) is very good but you have to be able to handle the scan tool. So just lets say it takes some time and experience to use it to its fullest capabilities.

I hope by some of these responses I give you folks opens the doors to the workshop dynamics on pricing profit margins and the politics that circulates amongst dealerships.
If you have any doubts about this then go to the web site Flatratetech.com.

Cheers Dennis
 
Re: goodbye to a dream that almost worked

Quote
"used three different dealerships and once they see the trucks service records they get nasty as if they do not want to be bothered."

To understand that "malaise" you need to understand the dynamics that which goes on within dealerships and the universal policy by the big three on who actually does warranty work.
In short it must be a factory certified tech who has a pass off to do such remedial warranty work/ rectification.
If the dealer doesn't use one of these "types" then he/shop doesn't get paid!
Now
Factor in the factory reimbursement rates for warranty work are lower than regular retail!
Remember the warranty time is usually 2/3rds of regular book time.

If the tech who is handed the job is a top earner then he is going to be less that eager to spend time fixing something that is complicated and makes him take more time than allotted for the task, because he is going to be fixing the rig you have on his dime if he doesn't follow the time allotted !

Consider for a moment if his pay stub is lower one week doing nothing but warranty work can you imagine what is missus is going to say when there is less in the bank than last! That is human nature!
AND
Believe me most of us grubby hands brigade (techs /mechs) are less than enthusiastic about the products we fix!

To be blunt, most of us are not "in love" with these POS vehicles like the average Joe Blow the customer, they are as I say consumer durables. in spite of what is spouted out on the dealer sales floor!

Now Ford has some of the best electrical ISO standards in the business and their vehicle operating systems called IDS also found on Jags and Landrovers (post 2006) is very good but you have to be able to handle the scan tool. So just lets say it takes some time and experience to use it to its fullest capabilities.

I hope by some of these responses I give you folks opens the doors to the workshop dynamics on pricing profit margins and the politics that circulates amongst dealerships.
If you have any doubts about this then go to the web site Flatratetech.com.

Cheers Dennis
I understand what your saying but a warranty is still customer service and something that has been paid for with the purchase. As a customer it should be no concern of mine if an employe is unhappy with their career choice or if the dealer cannot maximize their profits with warranty work.
 

lindenengineering

Well-known member
I understand what your saying but a warranty is still customer service and something that has been paid for with the purchase. As a customer it should be no concern of mine if an employe is unhappy with their career choice or if the dealer cannot maximize their profits with warranty work.

Correct but is the factory policy implementation that is the root cause of most of these issues and the need to contain repair costs .
By the way if you are a Hertz or an Avis then you are not restricted by the need for certified techs.

They use anyone in their shops to fix warranties.-----If the repair is unsuccessful then it goes to the nearest dealer for their techs to put right. Factory policies again.
Yes its the dealer's responsibility to intervene but crap produced by the factories and then relying upon the dealer network to put it right is the real cause of the issues most face due to poor product development and component failure from component suppliers.

Dennis
 

hayduke

2005/2006 leisure travel
Dennis,thank you so much for untying the knots
I have always wondered about this:Remember the warranty time is usually 2/3rds of regular book time
Who makes up "regular book time"?
 

lindenengineering

Well-known member
Dennis,thank you so much for untying the knots
I have always wondered about this:Remember the warranty time is usually 2/3rds of regular book time
Who makes up "regular book time"?
To be exact a section in the factory called methods and techniques!
They tear stuff down in an activity sample and use dealer input from warranty claims to modify the time if the dealer is making too much money.

Then a few years ago quite stir went through the Ford dealer chain techs who devised methodology to do repairs in faster times than the factory could do them.

Well doesn't take a genius to work out that Ford cut the warranty times down to where the tech makers little no money on repairs.
No winners!
Dennis
 

lindenengineering

Well-known member
Just a mention, relative or not to some!

Doug mentioned the complication to a point of confusion and user frustration of Euro cars in particular.

The issue is as I see it, the influence of us guys who design stuff that is unnecessarily complicated! Us, as the male species dominate the German Auto industry and even Germans themselves hate to have an auto prompt/command voice from female voice.

In any case only about 15% of women work at design ends of the product we make sell and fix.
Yes the sub compact SUV was built with women in mind but generally most vehicles have a male signature on them.
Its a fact of life us macho types follow the intricacies of a ball game what ever the shape of that ball might be! I suppose I could draw & analogize it to the English cricket match!
The guys all engrossed in the intricacies of the game but boring to the ladies who make tea and socialize in the pavilion.
The Japanese and Toyota in particular have found a niche in producing a high tech and reliable easy to use cars without the encumbrances of male over complication so prevalent in Euro cars.
Food for thought
Dennis
 

revpermin

New member
Hi, I have a different outlook to most people.
I believe that the way all vehicles are now made is primarily to stop the home mechanic. I own a 1997 ex police riot van which I am slowly converting to a campervan.
Vans of this age are said to have been built by blacksmiths & so far I have found very little wrong.

I had a seized rear brake calliper piston which was a pleasant experience to fix. ie., nothing was in the way so all fixings were easy to get at!

The underside & bodywork has dents but not much rust, it's an auto but I'm getting 30 imperial mpg.

I also own a 1998 VW Sharan which is also easy to work on & a 2003 Toyota Avensis D4D ( Tocoma poss? ).

The Toyota is a pig to work on, you need very small hands & rubber arms to get anything done under the hood, with the consequence that my mate who works on drift cars said, after replacing the clutch, that he never wants to see the car again, you don't want to be replacing headlight bulbs on the side of the road either.

So personally I won't buy cars made after 1999.
The Toyota is a good car to drive but in addition to the previous post.
Why are there seat belt warnings on the front seats that I can see but not the rear ones that I can't.
Why don't the wipers wipe the maximum area of the screens.
Why did they think that making the engine rev higher when cold & the heater is on was a good idea? it's bad for an engine to rev till it's warm!
Why fit 17 inch wheels & low profile tyres to a passenger car, noisy ride, tramlining & easier to damage in pot holes!
Why design a hatchback that lets the rain in from the drainage channels when opened.
Why are the headlights so bad.
Why if the engine is running & cruise is selected & you accidentally knock the stalk up does the engine start to rev to the red line.
I could go on but----

Phill
 

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