Cargo Van to Iron Tent

I was just at an RV show this week and RoadTrek seems to have a system like this, with passive radiators at the back and side doors and pipes in the floor. They don't have room on board for propane, it's an all electric RV with 600 watts of solar, so they get heat from diesel using a system from Alde in Europe. Gotta say, class B RVs are coming into their own. The days of 10000 watt Onans and 45 foot long RVs seem to be over. Didn't see one at the show.

-Randy
Roadtrek converts a standard propane fueled Alde heat and hot water system to use diesel by adding an Espar hydronic heater to heat the glycol solution, retaining the Alde hot water heat exchanger, retaining the Alde electric heating element, and disabling the Alde propane heater.
 

TooMuchHair

Active member
irontent, great build and thanks for all of the detailed information! I have been trying to decide how I was going to do my floor. Are you happy with the 2" rigid foam you used? Any regrets as far as reduced headroom, any squeaking (as others have suggested)? Can you tell if the Poly Iso did a good job as a sound deadener ? Thanks for your help!
 

irontent

Member
... Are you happy with the 2" rigid foam you used? Any regrets as far as reduced headroom, any squeaking (as others have suggested)? Can you tell if the Poly Iso did a good job as a sound deadener ? Thanks for your help!
I am quite happy with the floor approach I used.

The key to using poly ISO as a floor insulator is in where you use it, and the covering for the insulation that is used to distribute point loads over a larger area of the foam.

One inch poly ISO has about (from memory for the foil backed Rmax brand we used) a crush load fail point of about 40 PSI. In order to prevent point loads from crushing the foam, a stiff upper layer is needed. After looking at various types of wood, I decided that the original OEM engineered wood floor was just about perfect. The 10 mm laminate (including a 1mm pad) further distributes the point load.

When I redid the bed earlier this year, I ended up removing some of the polyiso to access holes in the van steel floor. I saw no evidence of any crushing.

In some places, I used 1" plywood layers in place of the insulation (in the cargo area at the back of the van, under the galley cabinets, and at the slider entry way) as I expected that these heavily used areas would benefit from less-compressible base. Note that under the galley cabinet, I only used the 1" plywood under the weight-bearing edges of the cabinets, then put poly iso in the center of the cabinet so I could route the radiant heat pipe under the galley cabinet which holds my 35 gal fresh water tank.

In addition to the radiant heat tubing, a large channel cut in the poly iso serves as a plumbing chase for hot, cold, a 1.5 inch drain pipe, and a few electrical cables to cross from the bathroom/shower to the galley. So, I have very few wires and pipes running below the van. This helps for cold weather operation. The pipe chase also contains a radiant heat tube which serves to keep the pipe chase area from freezing during frozen weather periods.

I'm a little under 6 feet in height. Even with the 2 inch poly iso, factory floor, and 10 mm laminate, I can still walk inside the van with no issues. I ended up raising the shower pan another two inches high to facilitate room for a Hepvo trap and shower drain pipe. So, I must be careful of bumping my head when showering.

Our van is quiet due to butyl rubber loading pads on the steel surfaces, covered by spray foam on the sides and ceiling of the van. Once I added the 2 inches of poly ISO on the floor, it seemed even quieter. But, I can't compare how it works for noise, compared to other floor covering approaches as I have no experience with Sprinters with other floor coverings.

I have not detected any issues with the floor squeaking. This might have been an issue if I had used extruded styrofoam -- but I didn't.

Good luck.
 
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VanGuy6678

Member
Hey there IronTent - who was the upfitter who installed your 2nd alternator & Balmar regulator, please? I want to do the same...THANKS!
 

irontent

Member
50,000 Mile Update And Thoughts Since 2013’s Initial Acquisition

First off, this is really a 49,000 Mile update, but since it is near the end of the year, and I just had the 50,000 service done a bit early, here goes …

I took delivery of the van in February, 2013, and started the build process. I called the build process done in the spring of 2015, but we used the van extensively in 2014 and 2015 traveling and testing out ideas / prototypes.

MB Service Performed — all at dealer except one fuel filter off-cycle change

  • June, 2014 3,500 miles - Check engine light - Turbo sensor replaced - warranty

  • Nov, 2014 10,000 service

  • Nov, 2015 20,000 service

  • June, 2016 27,000 — New fuel filter done by independent MB shop in Golden — changed due to rough running and starting difficulty. I suspected a tank of bad fuel which I purchased in a small station in the back-woods of Arkansas a couple weeks before. I knew better. The new filter fixed all the issues.

  • Aug, 2016 30,000 service

  • June, 2017 40,000 service and new tires (note — I could have gone another 10,000 miles, but the OEM tires were getting annoyingly noisy. The new Michelins drive much quieter and reminded me how smooth driving this van is.)

  • Nov, 2017 49,000 service. In addition to the routine oil service, the shop tech noticed signs of a small fluid drip while doing an under-van inspection on the lift. They changed the left charge hose to cooler under warranty.
All services were limited to only those items specified in the official MB factory maintenance schedule for the van.

The van still drives like a dream, and has never let us down. So far, it has been as reliable as the Ford trucks that have been my daily drivers for many years, and more reliable than my MB SL500 toy car. The big difference is that a 10,000 service typically costs about $500 while a Ford Truck 5,000 mile service typically costs about $100. Since I’ve become incredibly lazy, all my routine maintenance on all my rides is now done at the appropriate local dealership. All of you more industrious types can likely whittle-down the routine operating costs by doing it in your own shops.

Almost all miles have been driven at highway speeds 70-75+ MPH usually driving during windy conditions. After tracking fuel usage, we typically see 16-17 MPG without towing. If the winds are calm, we get 18 MPG. The time’s I’ve driven slower at 60-65 MPH, we’ve seen higher. But I seldom drive this slow. Towing milage is highly dependent on wind, weight of the trailer, speed, and road-grade. We see 13 MPG in the mountains with our Rzr on an Aluminum trailer.

This year’s usage is typical — a couple of multi-week trips to the east coast with many stops in Texas, Oklahoma, Missouri, and Nebraska for fishing / family visits; a west coast trip for hitting a few wineries, and trips to Arizona.

This year, we bought a fifth-wheel which provided a home base this summer in Southern Colorado, and will be our home base this winter in the greater Phoenix area.

We view the van as a method of travel eliminating the need for hotel rooms, airplanes, and most rent cars. (I did way too much of that during my 40 years of constant traveling with work.) And, a nice place to sleep when fishing in Colorado’s high lakes / streams.

As far as systems and rework items go, here are my impressions:

Heavy maple interior cabinets — I really like how these turned-out, and the final look is better than I think i could have achieved using other methods (given my minimal cabinet making skills). I was able to reduce the weight by selectively removing some panels, and did not use any particle board — only hardwood plywood or solid maple. They have demonstrated durability, and utility.

Electrical system — Going with big AGM batteries, high-quality Lifeline, Blue Sea, Morningstar and Magnum components has been a home-run. Going with three charging sources: solar, second alternator, and shore has worked-out great. We only plug-in if we need the AC during the summer at night to sleep, or while the van is parked in the shop. During summer usage, solar provides all necessary power. When traveling during the winter, solar is supplemented with the second alternator during cloudy days while driving. We use a home-style espresso machine and foamer every day (heavy 115v loads), and the induction stove or microwave just about every day (For odoriferous foods, we use a cheap single-burner butane stove outside on the picnic table). Having multiple LED lighting zones controlled by 5 BlueSea digital dimmers has also worked out well.

Heating / Hot Water — in-floor hydronic heat was the best design decision I made. Nothing is better than a warm floor on bare feet on cold mornings! While it takes a while to warm-up a cool van, the system keeps the van warm with little trouble. We use engine waste heat to insure the hydronic coolant is hot so there is no lag in getting a hot shower after driving all day. In retrospect, adding a 4 or 5 gallon insulated hot water holding tank would have been nice to keep hot water readily available during the summer months when the Espar is seldom used for heat. Since the initial install in 2013, the fluid has not been changed. I recently added about a pint of fluid to bring the level in the coolant tank back up to the maximum level. I also tested the Ph, Total Alkalinity, and Freeze protection with coolant test strips, and all items were nominal. The Rixen system is more expensive than alternatives, but it has performed flawlessly.

Water System — I made it complicated, but it works exactly the way I want. The only change I would make would be to utilize a complex valve which came on the new DRV Mobile Suite we bought. Check-out an Anderson Brass Water Service Panel. It makes switching from shore, tank use, tank fill, and winterizing simple with the multi-year-position single rotary valve. I have four valves to do the same job. And, I would have likely used flex braided pipe instead of PEX. The PEX has worked fine, but I’m dreading the future if I need to fix any of the lines due to close quarters and the large crimping tool I would need to use. Putting the fresh and black tanks inside the van with hydronic heating pipe for freeze protection has worked well. Having a trap-less gray water system has also worked well during the cold months — I just dump some antifreeze down the sink as we use it during winter.

Bathroom / Shower — has worked well for us. We take long, hot showers when connected to shore water (heated by the Espar and flat-plate heat exchanger), and shorter Navy showers when boon docking. Our ~35 gallon tank is more than adequate. I usually only put in about 20 gallons at a time. We use bottled water for drinking / coffee, but the tank water is potable, and has no odors after nearly five years. I flush / sanitize the water system once a year. I went to the trouble of installing a fancy macerator dump system as part of the initial build with electric gate valves. After two pump failures, I fixed it, and added an easy way to dump using conventional 3 inch flexible hoses. My advise: Skip the macerator. But, the electrical gate valves are the bomb.

Electronics and Internet — I’ve been extremely happy with the system I designed and installed. My initial choice in routers was not great, but a Pepwave AC class router put in last year is awesome. A LTE jetpack is used 24x7. Rarely, I’ll switch the Pepwave to campground Wifi (a few campgrounds have exceptional service). Putting in a second house stereo with separate speakers, bluetooth audio, and the like freed us from the poor factory radio. I used a marine-grade radio from Fusion which enabled controls at the driver’s position as well as at the rear entertainment system. Having two sets of controls is great for relaxing in the evening in the rear living section, and while driving up front. I almost never use the built-in van system except for the bluetooth speaker phone capabilities of the factory radio while driving and talking on the phone. The AC powered Samsung TV has worked great. I found a model with an AC brick output of 15 volts, and run the TV without the brick wired directly into the Van’s house DC system. The TV works well as long as the house DC stays above 12v (almost all the time). We’ve used a Dish satellite TV to catch special sporting events and the morning news, but usually use streaming services through my phone displayed on the TV via a Lightning to HDMI connection, or local over-the-air channels though a $30 mylar antenna mounted behind the refrigerator.

Seating and Bed — my initial bed / couch approach was a major / expensive disappointment. A couple of years ago, I removed it, and built a “sectional” style bed / seating arrangement with 8020 and thick leather-covered foam cushions. We now sleep very comfortably, and enjoy watching TV using various configurations of wedge and bolster pillows. We’ve enjoyed using the center section (after removing the small bolster cushions) table for meals and cocktail hour. We have a floor mounted table, but we seldom use it.

Storage — The wall cabinets create a large amount of storage space. I built a large cabinet over the sleeping area at the rear which holds our bedding during the day. And, the two golf-club cabinets at the very rear have been invaluable.

Insulation — I’m happy with the performance of the sprayed insulation, but I would use Hein’s approach if I were to build another van (small chance).

Bottom line — we spent a little less (ignoring the value of my time) than a premium commercial class B, and have exactly the van we want. It was a lot of work, but we’re happy to date.
 

VanGuy6678

Member
After looking at commercial RVs for a while, we decided to do our own conversion because we could not find exactly what we wanted, and the workmanship and component quality on most we saw was lacking.



We wanted a vehicle that would get decent fuel economy, provide a comfortable experience for days / weeks at a time, has plenty of electrical power for all our toys, and could be used on a near four season basis. We also want to be able to boondock (some of our favorite fishing / hiking places are above tree-line), and enjoy RV campgrounds while traveling cross-country. After flying for work several times a week for many years, I don’t ever want to get back on an airplane, but we still want to travel extensively. A Sprinter-based conversion seems like just the thing.



In the fall of 2012, we ordered a long, tall cargo van, and began the design in detail.



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We are using a floor plan similar to several commercial conversions we saw which includes a 48” bathroom (we like our showers), a queen size bed / couch, a large fridge, and a full galley. We are leaving about 15” behind the sofa for cargo (golf clubs, extra coolers, motor cycle & biking gear, etc.



Some of the key components are: dual 220 watt solar panels, 2 8D batteries, roof air conditioner, vent fan, two inverters (one big, and one small for light loads), microwave, second alternator, Espar D5 for engine preheat, domestic hot water, and radiant heat, awning, and the usual fresh, gray, and black water tanks and cabinets.



To get a jump-start, we had several items installed by a up-fitter once we received the van: alternator, Espar, solar panels, AC, vent, battery box, couch/bed, and awning.



View attachment 53412



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Hey there - I’m planning to self-install the Nations 2nd alternator this spring. Wanting to get ahead start, can I ask exactly where the cabling for your 2nd alternator runs in order to reach your house battery bank? Thank you!!
 

irontent

Member
Hey there - I’m planning to self-install the Nations 2nd alternator this spring. Wanting to get ahead start, can I ask exactly where the cabling for your 2nd alternator runs in order to reach your house battery bank? Thank you!!
There are two (positive and negative) 4/0000 cables that run from the second alternator, along the underside of the van. They start on the passenger side main support member, secured by cable brackets, then cross-over to the driver's side main support. They enter, via a hole in the floor, into the wheel-well ottoman cabinet. In the cabinet, the positive cable connects through a big Blue Sea battery switch (enabling the alternator positive cable to be easily isolated from the house system) to another battery switch which can be used to completely disconnect the house batteries from the house electrical system. The 2800 watt inverter, the 300 watt inverter, and the solar charger are all mounted in the same ottoman cabinet on a sheet of 1/4 aluminum which is bolted to the van wheel well.

A mix of appropriately sized / blow-type fuses & some large breakers are located at the alternator, battery posts, before both inverters, solar charger, and a 2/0 positive cable which runs from the ottoman back up to the upper shelf above the driver's position where the main Blue Sea DC breaker panel is mounted.

Another Blue Sea battery selector switch is mounted above the driver's head and selects the DC Breaker panel supply from either the house battery system (via the 2/0 positive cable), or the MB OEM Auxiliary battery fed by a 2/0 cable directly a 100 amp fuse fed at the large OEM Aux battery cable relay located in the driver's seat base. This enables all the 12v consumers in the house electrical system to be powered from the MB Aux battery (in case of some as yet unexperienced house battery failure) or from the Van's primary alternator while driving. We use this feature a lot on cloudy days (low solar gain) when we plan to drive only a few hours to the next over-night spot. Doing this enables all the second alternator's output to be put directly into the house batteries without diverting any of the second alternator's output to power the refer, lights, heater system, and the like, while doing short drives. (NOTE: This capability only powers lower-amp house DC loads -- the inverters are only powered with the big house batteries. But, we usually don't use the inverters while driving, so it is not an issue.)

You didn't ask, but the Balmar regulator is mounted on the engine side of the firewall vertically immediately to the right of the big air filter for cabin air. The only downside to this location, is that I can't see the Balmar's LED digit indicator while driving. Having a view of this would be interesting while driving, but I really don't need it -- the Balmar just works once the correct parts are loaded into it at install time. In order to get a higher charging voltage, I use the Balmar setting for Optima batteries rather than the AGM setting. The Lifeline AGM batteries seem to do well with a slightly higher charging voltage that the printed Lifeline spec. This was mentioned to me by both the battery seller, and Lifeline technical support when I rang them about it.
 

irontent

Member
I received a question which others might have: Hydronic Radiant Heat Question -- Howdy, I was hoping to pick your brain. I've read through your Iron Tent build along with several others builds and really want to pursue hydronic radiant heat in my van build. I will be living in the van year round in the Salt Lake City area so winters can be pretty chilly. I know that most of your system is Rixen's and I am strongly considering that for a base. One thing I don't hear anyone talk about though with in floor hydronic is the temperature control. I didn't see any sort of mixing valve in your install, are you just running the full temp water in the flooring? Have you had any issues with the floor being to hot or any damage from the temps? Thanks for your time.

My Answer ... When heated by the Espar, the working-fluid (Glycol 60% / Water 40%) is kept at about 140 degrees. This is a little hot for in-floor heating, but within the specs of the Black Onyx hydronic heat tubing I used. As I mentioned in my post, it is more expensive than Pex, but is more dimensionally stable, and can take the higher-than normal temps.

We seldom need to heat the floor with the engine waste heat (while driving instead of the Expar), but have done it a few times for several hours at a time. The resulting 190 degree temp is near the max sec for the Black Onyx, but since the pressure is so low, I am not worried about it. Basically, when in that situation, the floor is cold enough that the working fluid temp drops quickly as the heat is radiated.

I considered a mixing valve to reduce the working fluid temp to something lower, but decided it was not really needed in my situation.

Rixen's design depends on the thermostat in the Espar controlling the temp of the fluid, and a simple thermostat connected to Rixen's controller to actuate valves to route the working fluid into the floor heating tubing when the T-stat calls for heat.

I used heater hose for all the plumbing except for the actual in-floor tubing, so high working temp is not a big deal.

I use a flat plat heat exchanger for domestic hot water which has another t-stat on it to call for heat when the working temp is too low to heat the heat exchanger for domestic hot water.

After several years of use, I believe it was one of the best design decisions I made.

If you are going to depend on the heat 24x7 through-out a Salt Lake winter, I advise you to leave space for a water/air heat exchanger with a blower to add more heat to the interior in case your floor heat design does not produce enough heat. The water/air heat exchanger with a blower is cheap, and can be controlled with yet another Tstat, or operated manually when you want it hotter inside.
 

irontent

Member
Another question via PM: Thanks for the fast response. I'm always impressed by the forum members who are willing to answer everyone else lol.

I haven't settled on a flooring material yet and high temperature is indicated as a bad idea with some of the laminates and VCT's I was looking at so that's what triggered my concerns, not so much the plumbing. My plan is to build a mostly removable system with the flooring, walls and ceiling being the only items permanently mounted to the van. The furniture and storage would all be attached to l track. To do this I would need a durable material that spans the whole space not just the walk way.

My current flooring plan is sound deadener, 1" XPS (for better cold tolerance than Polyiso), 5/8" HeatPly with aluminum thermal plates, top flooring. I think this will provide enough insulation to keep the heat moving up into the van while not adding to much height to the floor (I'm 6'2" so every inch really counts).

I had planned to follow your lead with the Onix, it really seems like it was made for the application. Did you have any trouble with needing the "Onix" fittings or did you just use standard barbs? I was also already planning to do at least one air heat exchanger for exactly the reasons mentioned as well as for boot drying.

I really like the Rixen system but mostly the controls, I tried to plan my own copy cat system but its the controls that hang me up. The only thing I thought about doing differently was to do an IsoTherm Square for the domestic hot water thinking it will act as one more source of thermal storage in the system. How well has the "instant hot water" from the exchanger worked for you in regards to showers?
 

irontent

Member
Another question via PM: Did you have any trouble with needing the "Onix" fittings or did you just use standard barbs?

I really like the Rixen system but mostly the controls, I tried to plan my own copy cat system but its the controls that hang me up. The only thing I thought about doing differently was to do an IsoTherm Square for the domestic hot water thinking it will act as one more source of thermal storage in the system. How well has the "instant hot water" from the exchanger worked for you in regards to showers?
I purchased the recommended Watts Onix brass hose barb fittings, and their recommended clamping bands and tool. They were expensive, but were easy to install, and they don't leak.

I have commented elsewhere on this forum that adding an IsoTherm was attractive, but I decided not too because I didn't want to give up interior space in the van, and didn't want to worry about the tank freezing if I put in under the hood like others on this forum have.

I have found the flat-plate heat exchanger, coupled with an anti-scald valve set at 102 deg F is ideal for showering. I just turn the hot water on full in the shower, and it comes out the perfect temp for me. By using the waste heat from the engine, one can get a hot shower for "free" if done after driving. At other times, it is necessary to fire up the Espar and wait a few minutes until it raises the working fluid up to 140 Deg. This usually takes less than 1/2 hour. If the system is supplying heat for space heating, then there is no delay required to get a hot shower. So, for my use case, a storage tank for domestic hot water would not add much utility.
 

MsNomer

Active member
Make sure you investigate Marmoleum as a flooring. It is virtually indestructible. Remnants can be had at flooring stores.
 

jwlynch

New member
Thank Irontent for sharing my questions, hopefully others can benefit from them in their own design challenges.

I was also tossing around the idea of a 2 coil IsoTherm. Coil one in a loop with the Espar, fan/coil, and engine plate. Coil two for the radiant heat loop. My thought is that it would give me more control over the heat to the floor as well as adding a thermal storage hopefully reducing heater run times a bit.

I don't know what's better, letting the Espar run longer at a lower speed (soot?) or having a the thermal storage to run less but loosing that space.
 

jwlynch

New member
Make sure you investigate Marmoleum as a flooring. It is virtually indestructible. Remnants can be had at flooring stores.
It looks like a very durable product but looking at the specs I don't see anything regarding temp limits except a note in the installation guide about it needing to be kept below 70*F for a week after install. I worry that any glue down product is going to have issues in a van that will see temps anywhere between 10*F and 130+*F in a year.
 

MsNomer

Active member
You misread. The installation must be kept at at least 70° while the adhesive is curing. The adhesive is not a "glue." It is a thick black goop that saturates the jute backing and cures rock-hard. Absolutely zero movement—the flooring and the flooring become monolithic. My installation is 4 years old and still looks great. It has survived -23° to >120°, plus daily assaults from rocks and sand we bring in on our hiking boots. I just sweep with a shop broom and occasionally wipe with a damp paper towel.
 
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Hi Irontent,

Great thread. We are about to embark on a build-out of our 2500 4x4 170wb that will be very similar to yours for the same reasons/use cases (minus the golf bag storage!). I planned to use 2” closed cell SPF for the walls and ceiling. Why would you opt for Thinsulate instead, if you did it over again?
 

irontent

Member
Hi Irontent,

Great thread. We are about to embark on a build-out of our 2500 4x4 170wb that will be very similar to yours for the same reasons/use cases (minus the golf bag storage!). I planned to use 2” closed cell SPF for the walls and ceiling. Why would you opt for Thinsulate instead, if you did it over again?
Using rigid sheets of closed cell foam for wall / ceiling insulation (Polyiso sheets like Rmax) works fine -- I used that in the floor. Since the sprinter walls are curved, getting the sheets to fit requires some additional spray foam (small cans) to keep them in place. I think others have had issues with squeaks using that technique.

Using commercial (or consumer) spray foam in two-part spray systems must be used with extreme care in order to limit van side-wall distortion. The foam two-part systems generate heat as they are combined in the spray nozzle, and if one is not careful, the heat will warp the walls as the foam cures over some time. The distortion is temperature sensitive, and some have noted that depending on the ambient temp when applied, and the extreme hot and cold temps while using the van can cause panel distortion over time. Spraying several thin layers, allowing cure time between thin layers, can help minimize the distortion issues.

Hein (on this forum) supplies the appropriate flavor of Thinsulate. I have not had direct experience with it, but many swear by it. I would call Hein and get his take as he has much direct experience with it.

Since you mentioned you are doing a 2500 van, be sure to carefully design for low weight of everything you add, as you will have a lower max GVW, that those of us who built on a 3500 platform.

Good luck.
 
My plan was to have 2pcf density 2-part SPF professionally spray by a local insulation company that has experience with spraying vans. I know the process is messy and takes quite a bit of prep. My van is white, so that should help with the difference with expansion between the metal skin and underlying foam.

I am also very aware of the weight issue. Thinsulate, at .14 pounds per face foot, weighs less than half of the foam @ .33 psf, so the weight penalty would be about 33 pounds for the 175 sf of foamed roof and wall area. I had already decided to use Thinsulate in the doors because of the weight and need for access to the mechanisms.

BUT, I plan on using hydronic radiant floor heat and using the lower R-value Thinsulate makes heat-loss calcs pretty tenuous for the kind of btu output I can expect from the amount of tubing that will fit on the floor.

I’m curious why you said you’d switch. I get the drawbacks- cost, weight, difficulty of future mods (though my profession is well thought-out design), so I’m not too worried about it. What is it about the SPF that would lead you to opt for Thinsulate, what I just mentioned, or something else?
 
The other thing is, I wonder how many people with Thinsulated vans, including Hein, use them for winter (skiing) conditions. My objective is a true 4-season van. If I didn’t expect to be in sub-zero conditions I’d probably opt for Thinsulate.
 

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