High Mileage T1N Values

It seems like as time passes the T1N's are going up in value, especially for one with lower mileage. What about the high mileage T1N's?

The most common thing I see is high mileage with undocumented engine/trans swaps so lets use one I looked at as an example:

2004 158" 2.7 with 450K Miles. Vehicle known history includes new ECM, battery, alternator, tensioner, serpentine belt, tires, windshield, and brakes. Unknown history is just what I mentioned: Engine and transmission at some unknown point.

The vehicle is southern and has no rust, otherwise checks out, and is free of damage. With that kind of mileage and no history on the major work I'd assume it is a major gamble. Maybe some more experienced Sprinter people will have input to value to similar sprinters. It looks exceptionally clean.

Steer clear of these southern rust free high mileage T1N's or go with a slightly lower mileage one from the rust belt?

Living in the rust belt, and having Sprinters in the rust belt, I'd say not just no, but hell no.

The NAFTA T1N body ended in 2006, so it is now 12 years old.

I have a 2015, bought in 2016, that had rust in the rear wheel well pinch seam that has been "repaired under warranty" using an unknown procedure.

The majority of T1N Sprinters in my area look rough, and the Dodge branded NCV3 vans are usually worse. The "clean" (50 footer) T1N vans around here are obvious repaints... not sure what they look like up close. Or, underneath.

If the one you looked at is indeed rust free and free of damage, then is it any worse than a rusty one from the north?

What's the price difference between "low mileage" and "high mileage"?

The bigger question is what's your pain threshold if the van starts going sideways?

danski0224 said:

Living in the rust belt, and having Sprinters in the rust belt, I'd say not just no, but hell no.

The NAFTA T1N body ended in 2006, so it is now 12 years old.

I have a 2015, bought in 2016, that had rust in the rear wheel well pinch seam that has been "repaired under warranty" using an unknown procedure.

The majority of T1N Sprinters in my area look rough, and the Dodge branded NCV3 vans are usually worse. The "clean" (50 footer) T1N vans around here are obvious repaints... not sure what they look like up close. Or, underneath.

If the one you looked at is indeed rust free and free of damage, then is it any worse than a rusty one from the north?

What's the price difference between "low mileage" and "high mileage"?

The bigger question is what's your pain threshold if the van starts going sideways?

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Well, budget wise high mileage is better... so long as it doesn't blow up in 20K miles

A low mileage is $12,000. A high mileage is $3,000-5,000 depending on condition/records ect. At $5,000 I could lose major components and still not get up to the price of the low mileage. Down side -- for my personal uses I'm active duty so if I lose it I'm not dumping a lot of my own time into it unless its planned out long term.

In general there are cult classic collectors models of cars, trucks and jeeps where the "they don't make them like they used to" draws bigger dollars. My thought is that we may see this with T1N's as the conversion vanlife market starts driving up prices. Shoot for a million miles and to hell with the maintenance costs?! Rebuild the rebuild. Or dump dollars into hoping to have some money to recoup in the end.


I'd be interested to know how many would entertain buying a 450K mile sprinter

I bet the only thing driving up prices is the lack of pollution controls compared to 2007 and later diesels. The same sort of thing has happened to 2005 and earlier VW's.

I'd entertain the purchase only if it checked out in every way I could reasonably inspect it, the price was fair, and if I had some funds set aside for repairs. There's no guarantee that a lower mileage example won't fail suddenly... but the possibility for failure sure seems to be better on the higher mileage example.

danski0224 said:

I bet the only thing driving up prices is the lack of pollution controls compared to 2007 and later diesels. The same sort of thing has happened to 2005 and earlier VW's.

I'd entertain the purchase only if it checked out in every way I could reasonably inspect it, the price was fair, and if I had some funds set aside for repairs. There's no guarantee that a lower mileage example won't fail suddenly... but the possibility for failure sure seems to be better on the higher mileage example.

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My thoughts on this were spend $5,000 and budget $5,000 over a period of time to build. Even if you have a $2,000 failure on a $5,000 remaining budget its still better than paying interest on something priced in the teens or above -- with nothing yet budgeted towards basic conversion components.

The one caveat to this is if you can take out a loan with a rate less than interest and use remaining capital towards a higher dollar build. Reliability will probably extend from 20K-100K out to 100K-150K with a nicer vehicle.

Either way there is no way to be certain you won't have a failure in the first 100 miles. Older diesel trucks seem to be holding value better and gaining a cult following so I could believe that a super high mileage sprinter like my example may still be worth something. I mean for an investment under $5,000 you can easily say you aren't losing much over time.

$30,000 vehicle may lose $5,000 value instantly. $5,000 van may lose 80% value at total failure. Major failure may be a 75% loss. Running, driving and stopping may still retain 50% value regardless of mileage.

I guess the real question is this: attempt to hit 1,000,000 miles or attempt to buy at the lowest number possible to try to increase the amount of time you can use the platform

I can't really answer your questions.

This caught my eye.

modbus said:

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I'd be interested to know how many would entertain buying a 450K mile sprinter

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No. I would likely not buy a 450,000 mile T1N Sprinter unless it was from a source that I absolutely knew had kept it in good operating condition.

I would however keep running a T1N Sprinter if I already owned it. The difference is condition and knowledge. At 328,000+ miles on the 2004 I know what I have.

Right now I know that there is a fuel leak if I fill the tank to Full. If kept slightly below full, it doesn't leak.

I know that the left side wiper pivot is loose and will eventually fail. I have the parts on hand to install come decent weather. The right side windshield has a crack that was stop drilled and is ok for annual inspections.

I know that the ASSYST oil change is coming up in 2700 miles. The oil has been changed regularly.

I know that the brake lines, calipers, rotors, etc. are in good condition and serviceable for at least one year more. The brake fluid was renewed 2 years ago. The parking brakes will need attention the next time the rotors are pulled. I have those parts on hand.

Rear tires are very good, fronts good. Front shocks fairly new, rear shocks coming up to renewal so i'm watching for good price parts.

I could go on, but the idea is that I know the overall condition of my 2004. When buying a used van with 450,000 miles from someone, you can check some things, but basically you're buying a Pig in a Poke and rolling the dice. Not a game that I would play if I entertained thoughts of conversion and reliable travel.

Many will talk big about loving T1N's and how reliable they are, but few will actually pay good money for a 450,000 mile conversion if the intended use is for some serious travel.

vic

modbus said:

Older diesel trucks seem to be holding value better and gaining a cult following so I could believe that a super high mileage sprinter like my example may still be worth something. I mean for an investment under $5,000 you can easily say you aren't losing much over time.

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This is BS reasoning.

Older diesel trucks (and cars) are "holding value" due to a lack of emissions controls compared to anything 2007 and newer. And, better fuel mileage due to fewer emissions controls.

There is no other logical reason.

Yes, there are some very limited production examples of specific Dodge RAM truck combinations that people are willing to pay big money for- because very few were ordered this way.

In the end, it is still an older vehicle and maintenance records may be questionable. At some point, it is probably safe to say that most people do not want to be driving a 20+ year old vehicle as a daily driver, so the "value" will tank at some point unless it is a creampuff.

Diesel engine repairs are still astronomically expensive compared to a gasoline engine model (if available).

If I remember correctly, the T1N Sprinters were the only USA models that had an engine lifespan mentioned in the sales literature, and I'm pretty sure that the claim was for 500,000 miles.

You are looking at one with 450k miles on the body and an unknown number of miles on the engine... and why was the ECU replaced? the transmission?

Almost any used vehicle is a crapshoot. A commercial type vehicle is worse.

At several hundred thousand miles, it is worth little more than scrap value to me. I wouldn't buy it unless I was mentally and financially prepared for a major driveline overhaul... and if I didn't need it, then I was lucky.

modbus said:

I guess the real question is this: attempt to hit 1,000,000 miles or attempt to buy at the lowest number possible to try to increase the amount of time you can use the platform

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And just how much driving do you do?

It would take me at least 15 years to do 500k miles at my current rate.

If I started with a 12+ year old rust-free Sprinter and brought it to the rust belt, I doubt that the body would make it 10 more years before it fell off due to rust.

Well, I only drive 10K a year at this point. Maybe 12K with long trips. But it won't be residing full time in the rust belt. IDK if its completely BS because up here people go crazy for a 7.3 or a cummins 5.9. Almost as if they don't understand that electronics, suspension, and other components will be their problem. Its like they think the diesel won't break hahahaha.

I agree with you diesel is astronomically priced compared to gas repairs. That's why I'm wondering about the value of these old T1N's. You could get a gas Promaster van in the low teens that has tons of life left and a service won't bankrupt you. It seems to me that going for a low mileage T1N only makes sense if you are several thousand dollars less than a Promaster. At that point a high mileage sprinter only makes sense if you are several thousand less than the lower mileage examples.

Any chance passenger vans would hold their value better than a cargo? Just considering the type of work they do. Its like higher engine idle hours vs mileage. There are a lot of former airport carriers around here.

Locally you can get

Promaster 159" under 150k ~ $15,000
Promaster 136" under 150k ~ $13,000
T1N 158" under 150K ~ $9,000
T1N 140" under 150K ~ $8,000

The comparisons are invalid because the T1N production in the USA ceased in 2006 and the RAM Promaster didn't exist until at least 2010 (I don't know when the brand was launched in the USA). The T1N is always at least 4 years older.

I'm sure there is a forum somewhere full of Promaster complaints.

I don't know if I would buy a used one with the end of model year incentives, unless you wanted specific options that probably aren't on the lot. At ~$15k for a used, questionably maintained Promaster with 150k miles, the extra +/-$10k to buy a new one at closeout time seems like a deal. The price spread is less if you choose poorly and the used vehicle needs a bunch of work. I was looking at used Transit prices, and I had to go back at least 4 years to justify the price spread from a new one, and the used one probably won't have a warranty and I'd be screwed if it needed major work.

Most vehicles do not "hold value". If your reasoning to buy is dependent on having $X left over after Y years of ownership, then you probably shouldn't buy it. The passenger vans will have more stuff to pull out and extra windows to deal with that the cargo versions do not have.

My own reason for choosing another T1N as a replacement is because no one currently *makes* a body shape/size equivalent to the 118" wheelbase T1N.
MB didn't import the (true) short wheelbase to the US when they switched to the NCV3.
I really appreciate my 16.5 foot (with step bumper) overall body length. (and 32' curb-to-curb turning circle)

--dick

autostaretx said:

My own reason for choosing another T1N as a replacement is because no one currently *makes* a body shape/size equivalent to the 118" wheelbase T1N.
MB didn't import the (true) short wheelbase to the US when they switched to the NCV3.
I really appreciate my 16.5 foot (with step bumper) overall body length. (and 32' curb-to-curb turning circle)

--dick

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See we are on two different ends of the spectrum. I'd love to be able to have a 118". It just doesn't fit my use. Sadly I have this thing called a family that I have to take into consideration. I can't have a single use vehicle.

My use is for RV living at temporary duty stations, as a vacation mobile, a transport for my handicapped father (if I plan on seeing him on leave), and a spare vehicle for when I'm home. That means I need a way to store and prepare food, a (at least part time) way to shower and get ready for work, a rear passenger seat, and a way to load a wheelchair.

My plans are 158" with murphy bed and onboard shower.Modular on L Track connections with 80/20 cabinetry that can be moved around or secured. This means I can use it as a truck, moving van, home, or regular car.

I would love to get my design down to a 140" but "temporary" duty stations are quite a bit more permanent than they sound. I also would like a double sliding door but while we are at it lets throw $40K at the build kind of defeats the purpose. My goal isn't to have the best sprinter. It is to have something that is sort of the swiss army knife of the vehicle world, and save money. I don't want to be paying on a $35,000 truck forever, struggling with bills at home, and scrounging for my own accommodations while I'm away.

There will always be outlier models but I feel as though in this market (depending on location) that T1N's won't get above $10-15K before that gap between new and used becomes so fine that the financing incentives for new eclipses the value of the vehicles lacking the emissions and electronics headaches.

If you or someone you know can properly assess the condition (as in interrogate certain systems such as cooling, fuel injection, electrical, known failures at certain mileage intervals such as the harmonic balancer, etc) and you’re mechanical at all, and can use this database as a resource to troubleshoot issues if they arise, I would not flinch to buy a 2004-2006 with around 250k miles up to $15k ($15k would be everything checks out, no to very little rust, perfect to very good oil analysis by Blackstone oil labs @250k miles). These Sprinters have some of the best and easiest to work on drivelines compared to any other vehicle in their class and regularly go to 500k miles if properly maintained. Not to mention getting 22+mpg with a thoughtful (as in not too heavy) camper build is a huge money saver over time. If you aren’t capable in wrenching to properly maintain these vehicles and or don’t like oil/grease under your fingernails, go with a transit gas guzzler... 2cents:

...I’m obviously t1n cultist ;-)

This past winter as I was preparing for a visit to a Baja gray whale birthing lagoon and getting appropriate insurance for the trip, I paid for an appraiser to represent the actual value of my 06 T1N.

With the limo package that came with it when I bought it, and all the add-ons since then, I felt secure in knowing that if the worst did happen, I would be fairly compensated. The official and licensed appraisal came to $36,000. It was worth every penny to have that document along for the ride. The insurance company got a copy when i was buying the limited time coverage for trip.

I also presented that appraisal to my insurance company here so they knew full well that this was not an empty tin can of a van. There was a slight increase in the yearly rate, and it was a small increase.

If I was to ever sell, and I don't have any plans to do so, I would have something more legitimate to base a selling price on than my opinion and personal investment. This is a keeper for me. I tend to keep my vehicles forever, relatively speaking. I don't buy to resell. Thanks to all here and Happy Easter.

jcmadeintheshade@gmail.com said:

This past winter as I was preparing for a visit to a Baja gray whale birthing lagoon and getting appropriate insurance for the trip, I paid for an appraiser to represent the actual value of my 06 T1N.

With the limo package that came with it when I bought it, and all the add-ons since then, I felt secure in knowing that if the worst did happen, I would be fairly compensated. The official and licensed appraisal came to $36,000. It was worth every penny to have that document along for the ride. The insurance company got a copy when i was buying the limited time coverage for trip.

I also presented that appraisal to my insurance company here so they knew full well that this was not an empty tin can of a van. There was a slight increase in the yearly rate, and it was a small increase.

If I was to ever sell, and I don't have any plans to do so, I would have something more legitimate to base a selling price on than my opinion and personal investment. This is a keeper for me. I tend to keep my vehicles forever, relatively speaking. I don't buy to resell. Thanks to all here and Happy Easter.

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Any chance you can post an image of that doc up? Of course redact any incriminating/personal info information as if you’re the justice department reviewing the Mueller report .

My T1N is from Miami and it still has some rust. I did take it up to Chicago/Detroit a few winters back and I think that might be why. 272,000 miles.

Vanski, I can recommend the licensed appraiser if you are interested.

What I can state is a representative came to my house and took photos, inside and out, of everything that applies to a higher value than a tin can of a van, that without this appraisal would mean a third of the value than what the photos can now provide. [The Blue Book]

The Baja insurance carrier and my local carrier have no problem with accepting this licensed appraisal level and the coverage it defines. The cost of this appraisal was $375 and worth every penny.

Consider the Blue Book value of less than $10,000 to the loaded value of equipment when I first purchased it and the additional add-ons since then. The proof of value is evident with the photos taken by the appraiser. Neither of the insurance carriers have expressed any reservations with the value of this particular T1N.

I am not afraid of the high mileage with 470k on my daily. Most vans with this many miles have had major replacements already and the purchase price leaves room for repairs as needed. I think one big reason the T1N is gaining popularity is the forums, facebook groups and youtube videos. Does any other van/truck have this kind of resource available?

autostaretx said:

My own reason for choosing another T1N as a replacement is because no one currently *makes* a body shape/size equivalent to the 118" wheelbase T1N.
MB didn't import the (true) short wheelbase to the US when they switched to the NCV3.
I really appreciate my 16.5 foot (with step bumper) overall body length. (and 32' curb-to-curb turning circle)

--dick

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The 118” PM comes mighty close to that.