Another won't start thread !

Convincent

New member
Make sure you know that you can actually die if any body part gets hit by fuel at rail pressure. Even from a cracked rail line, but especially an exposed injector tip. This is true of any CDI diesel. Much much more dangerous than the old skool mechanical injection.

Having said that, you can do that test if you take precautions and keep well clear of the spray. Put the ignition key in your pocket, bolt the fuel line to the injector and connect it, then dont let anyone go near it while you crank.

Definitely a good reminder and very important not to screw up.
 

220629

Well-known member
...

So now it's time for the second step- determining the Cause of your Complaint. For the reasons I stated above, it's important to follow a logical progression of diagnosis, instead of just guessing.

My recommendation, as I stated previously, is to find out if the engine is even capable of running, before you go spending any other money on it or wasting any more time fooling around with any of the peripheral subsystems. If fuel is being delivered, I would recommend determining the sealing ability of the engine, by running a compression test and/or by performing a leak-down test.
:idunno:

Not all of the replies by others are guessing. They are suggesting things which historically should be tested. Determining Cause as you refer to the step is often a process of elimination. Things can be eliminated or narrowed down by testing. No different than you suggesting that compression should be tested.

Carry on.

:cheers: vic
 
Vic, knowing some of the common areas of concern on a particular vehicle can be helpful information to someone who is already firmly grounded in diagnostic principles, but trying to teach someone all the backyard short-cuts before they even learn the basics, is just asking for problems.

I have not recommended ANY repairs.

I recommended that IF it is delivering fuel, that the next logical step would be to determine whether the engine is actually capable of running. This is sound diagnostic logic. If it were a gasoline engine we'd be checking for fuel and spark before doing a compression test, but since a diesel ignites using it's own compression, fuel delivery is the only area to check before moving on to determining the engine's integrity.

I am born and raised in the vehicle repair industry, and have had a long (and more importantly, successful) career in vehicle repair. Countless times during my career, I have had to unscrew things that have been screwed up by others. I've seen some real heartache and financial hardship, a lot of which was completely unnecessary, if they had simply stuck to the fundamentals. Back when we had carburetors, I have seen many perfectly good carburetors rebuilt and/or replaced, when the real problem was a flat cam or a burned valve. When OBD-II became part of our life, I saw many perfectly good EGR valves, EGR position sensors, MAP sensors, and so on get replaced, when the real problem was a plugged catalytic converter. And more recently, I have seen perfectly good ignition modules and cam position sensors get replaced, when the cam drive had failed and the cam wasn't even turning.

And if the vehicle owner thinks an engine job is expensive, wait until they pay some hack to replace a bunch of expensive peripherals that never needed to be replaced in the first place, just to find out that now they have to pay for an engine too. In the vehicle repair profession, we have a moral and ethical responsibility to be good stewards of the vehicle owner's trust regarding their financial resources.
 
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autostaretx

Erratic Member
Regarding starting fluid sprayed in the air intake: that basically tells you almost NOTHING about the engine's willingness to run.

This is a diesel .... unlike spark-plug engines, it's only the compression that's heating the fuel to ignition.
Give it a squirt, and as long as even only one cylinder has reasonable compression it'll sound like it's willing to run.
With a spark plug (i.e. "conventional ignition") engine, the starting fluid *would* be telling you that the spark system is working.

95% of the diesel system is the pumping and metering of fuel into the cylinders. and starting fluid doesn't test that.

--dick (i'm not saying: "don't ever squirt!", but i am saying: "don't read too much from it")
 
D

Deleted member 50714

Guest
Vic, knowing some of the common areas of concern on a particular vehicle can be helpful information to someone who is already firmly grounded in diagnostic principles, but trying to teach someone all the backyard short-cuts before they even learn the basics, is just asking for problems.

I have not recommended ANY repairs.

I recommended that IF it is delivering fuel, that the next logical step would be to determine whether the engine is actually capable of running. This is sound diagnostic logic. If it were a gasoline engine we'd be checking for fuel and spark before doing a compression test, but since a diesel ignites using it's own compression, fuel delivery is the only area to check before moving on to determining the engine's integrity.

I am born and raised in the vehicle repair industry, and have had a long (and more importantly, successful) career in vehicle repair. Countless times during my career, I have had to unscrew things that have been screwed up by others. I've seen some real heartache and financial hardship, a lot of which was completely unnecessary, if they had simply stuck to the fundamentals. Back when we had carburetors, I have seen many perfectly good carburetors rebuilt and/or replaced, when the real problem was a flat cam or a burned valve. When OBD-II became part of our life, I saw many perfectly good EGR valves, EGR position sensors, MAP sensors, and so on get replaced, when the real problem was a plugged catalytic converter. And more recently, I have seen perfectly good ignition modules and cam position sensors get replaced, when the cam drive had failed and the cam wasn't even turning.

And if the vehicle owner thinks an engine job is expensive, wait until they pay some hack to replace a bunch of expensive peripherals that never needed to be replaced in the first place, just to find out that now they have to pay for an engine too. In the vehicle repair profession, we have a moral and ethical responsibility to be good stewards of the vehicle owner's trust regarding their financial resources.
Excellent contribution I enjoyed.
 
D

Deleted member 50714

Guest
Regarding starting fluid sprayed in the air intake: that basically tells you almost NOTHING about the engine's willingness to run.

This is a diesel .... unlike spark-plug engines, it's only the compression that's heating the fuel to ignition.
Give it a squirt, and as long as even only one cylinder has reasonable compression it'll sound like it's willing to run.
With a spark plug (i.e. "conventional ignition") engine, the starting fluid *would* be telling you that the spark system is working.

95% of the diesel system is the pumping and metering of fuel into the cylinders. and starting fluid doesn't test that.

--dick (i'm not saying: "don't ever squirt!", but i am saying: "don't read too much from it")
And another informative contribution.
 

wcnz

New member
After clearing the following returned: P0087, P0672, P0671, P0380

Tac does bounce up to about 200ish when cranking the engine.
Code P0087 relates to fuel pressure not being within the envelope required by the ECU.
Codes P0671/P0672 and P0380 all relate to glow plug issues.

The fact that you have life in your tac while cranking does give hope to the injectors getting a firing pulse, but not guaranteed.

If your glow plugs are not functioning, it will not aid starting, particularly if temps are very low. Likewise, it will not start if fuel pressures are either low or too high, the ecu will normally shut down injection pulses for out of spec fuel pressure.

To get a common rail diesel to start, you need the fuel supplied (this assumes you are getting injection) to be reasonably warm (glow plugs see to this if ambient temp is cold), you need a decent static compression (base condition of cylinders) and then you need a good cranking speed to generate a good dynamic compression ( I usually look for +250rpm).

Your post about using "quick start" fluid and it trying to fire (without actually firing) is not promising. Tends to suggest that you have compression issues....

The advice given about testing compression is the first thing I would check (if your cranking speed is good). If compressions are good, then move onto determining what fuel pressure is being supplied to the injectors.

My advice is to do one step at a time, eliminate potential problems in a logical order or you will chase your tail around and end up having a spares spending fest...!!!
 
Code P0087 relates to fuel pressure not being within the envelope required by the ECU.
Codes P0671/P0672 and P0380 all relate to glow plug issues.

The fact that you have life in your tac while cranking does give hope to the injectors getting a firing pulse, but not guaranteed.

If your glow plugs are not functioning, it will not aid starting, particularly if temps are very low. Likewise, it will not start if fuel pressures are either low or too high, the ecu will normally shut down injection pulses for out of spec fuel pressure.

To get a common rail diesel to start, you need the fuel supplied (this assumes you are getting injection) to be reasonably warm (glow plugs see to this if ambient temp is cold), you need a decent static compression (base condition of cylinders) and then you need a good cranking speed to generate a good dynamic compression ( I usually look for +250rpm).

Your post about using "quick start" fluid and it trying to fire (without actually firing) is not promising. Tends to suggest that you have compression issues....

The advice given about testing compression is the first thing I would check (if your cranking speed is good). If compressions are good, then move onto determining what fuel pressure is being supplied to the injectors.

My advice is to do one step at a time, eliminate potential problems in a logical order or you will chase your tail around and end up having a spares spending fest...!!!
Wow, you sound pretty sharp. Do you do this for a living?
 

wcnz

New member
Retired, over 50 years of being a petrol head (still am)... now just trying to keep up with the latest electrickery built into modern vehicles (baffling for the most part) and helping out mates/family/others now.
 

220629

Well-known member
Vic, knowing some of the common areas of concern on a particular vehicle can be helpful information to someone who is already firmly grounded in diagnostic principles, but trying to teach someone all the backyard short-cuts before they even learn the basics, is just asking for problems.

I have not recommended ANY repairs.

I recommended that IF it is delivering fuel, that the next logical step would be to determine whether the engine is actually capable of running. This is sound diagnostic logic. If it were a gasoline engine we'd be checking for fuel and spark before doing a compression test, but since a diesel ignites using it's own compression, fuel delivery is the only area to check before moving on to determining the engine's integrity.

I am born and raised in the vehicle repair industry, and have had a long (and more importantly, successful) career in vehicle repair. Countless times during my career, I have had to unscrew things that have been screwed up by others. I've seen some real heartache and financial hardship, a lot of which was completely unnecessary, if they had simply stuck to the fundamentals. Back when we had carburetors, I have seen many perfectly good carburetors rebuilt and/or replaced, when the real problem was a flat cam or a burned valve. When OBD-II became part of our life, I saw many perfectly good EGR valves, EGR position sensors, MAP sensors, and so on get replaced, when the real problem was a plugged catalytic converter. And more recently, I have seen perfectly good ignition modules and cam position sensors get replaced, when the cam drive had failed and the cam wasn't even turning.

And if the vehicle owner thinks an engine job is expensive, wait until they pay some hack to replace a bunch of expensive peripherals that never needed to be replaced in the first place, just to find out that now they have to pay for an engine too. In the vehicle repair profession, we have a moral and ethical responsibility to be good stewards of the vehicle owner's trust regarding their financial resources.
Surprisingly this forum has been helping people fix their Sprinters for quite some time using a friendly non professional approach. The path to success isn't always a straight line. It is a forum.

The forum ain't perfect, but it has been basically cordial.

:2cents: vic
 

Convincent

New member
ok so sounds like the next step is a compression test.
Do the glow plugs have stretch bolts too?

Will any diesel compression test gauge set work or do I need something special? what about the hole adapter what do I need to match the threads/seals?

without being able to get the engine to operating temp should I expect the compression to be lower?
 

Convincent

New member
Also I generally put anti-seize on everything because it make future maintenance a breeze, are there any parts in the sprinter that should never have anti-seize applied?
 

220629

Well-known member
You will need a compression adapter which mimics the glow plug.

Glow plug threads are similar to a petrol engine spark plug. There is no stretch. If over tightened there can be "strip" because the glow plugs thread into aluminum.

Also I generally put anti-seize on everything because it make future maintenance a breeze, are there any parts in the sprinter that should never have anti-seize applied?
I use grease and anti-seize also. Be aware that in many cases that use can affect published recommended torque specifications.

:cheers: vic
 

owner

Oz '03 316CDI LWB ex-Ambo Patient Transport
If you can't get heat into your engine then I wouldn't touch the glowplugs. They snap off really easily even when piping hot. This opens a massive can of worms. You can do it through the injector ports with an adaptor. Cold injector removal would be much less risky than cold glowplug removal.

If you have access to a STAR diag machine you can do a basic compression test using the ECU to measure piston compression stroke speeds.

But I guess you might get lucky with the glowplugs. Don't just go yanking on them like a sparkplug. Its best to go very very slowly using a 1/4" drive ratchet at most after soaking them for as long as possible (ie. weeks) in a good penetrant.
 
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Midwestdrifter

Engineer In Residence
There is a thread here that has the breaking torque of the bosch glow plugs. As long as you stay under that by a good margin, you can try removing them cold. The odds are that maybe 1 or two will come out with this method. Again, you must use a torque wrench!
 

Convincent

New member
I use grease and anti-seize also. Be aware that in many cases that use can affect published recommended torque specifications.

:cheers: vic
I used to use grease... until I put it on my brake rotor bolts and the bolt backed out and the rotor scored the inside of my aluminum wheel and till it leaked. Now I use anti-seize. I think it works better than grease too.


I'll look for the torque spec on glow plug removal - great tip!
 

Convincent

New member
Other than running the engine is there any recommended way to get it hot? I've got a 60k forced air propane heater, but I dont want to make more problems by melting things!
 

Nautamaran

2004 140” HRC 2500 (Crewed)
I’d circulate hot coolant.

If you can get the boost heater running the electric EGR coolant circulation pump below the brake booster will pump the coolant. Or connect it to a boiler unit. If your van has a boost heater there is a coolant loop next to the battery that you can easily tie into behind the driver’s headlamp. Energizing the bypass valve will keep the coolant from looping through the cabin heater and losing heat.

Good luck.

-dave

(OP’s original complaint is that he can’t get the injectors out to fix leaking copper seals, so wants to run the engine to get it hot... us recommending he pull the injectors to run a compression test must have him grinding his teeth a little? :grin:)
 
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Midwestdrifter

Engineer In Residence
You could even get an large outdoor type fryer/burner filled with boiling water. Get the aux electric pump primed with cold water, pinch an extension hose and dip both the feed and return into the pot. circulate for an hour. a 5kw 16,000 btu burner should be enough to get the engine over 180F.
 

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