Westy house battery/charging problem

https://rvbasics.com/techtips/How-to-Clean-RV-Battery-Terminals.html

I used the combination terminal and brush cleaner for the main terminals and clamps.

Some of the clamps have lots of pieces. I take them apart and use sandpaper and a fingernail emery board between each layer (take a photograph so you can put layers back together in same orientation).

No visible white corrosion (and these are sealed type batteries) so probably don't need petroleum jelly or the green and red felt anti-corrosion washers.

Be careful.to avoid overtightening cable clamps--can crack battery case.

https://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php/topics/2802637/Re:_How_tight_should_car_batte

it worked! battery #1 charged at 12V
battery #2 allso showed charge below 25% so this time I went straight to to repair function in the Noco genius 7200 charger

So the other battery couldn’t be saved. I tried a different charger (Optima) with no luck. I suspect batteries are dead.
I can’t find the same batteries in the market. What are the names of the new batteries to replace the house batteries in the westy?
Where do you get them?

1. Should replace.both batteries at same time with same batteries of same age.

For battery longevity, should have a battery charger with charging profile liked by that battery (each brand model has different specs).

Make sure to get batteries which are really sealed (Westfalia manual says gel).

2. https://sprinter-source.com/forum/showthread.php?t=54580&highlight=Group

Insufficient info as to what you do with Westy (weekends only, long drives, lots of dry camping, hiw much solar, battery needs, etc.).

Easiest is to replace with same type of gel batteries. Westfalia battery charger 10 amp output matches well with gel batteries, other than maintenancd.

AGM batteries usually like higher amp and higher voltage charging, but varies by manufacturer type of AGM batteries.

The new lithium batteries are lightweight, can be discharged more, have more cycles, etc., but may require more attention to charging. Also, a bit expensive but if lots of dry camping, maynbr worth it.

It don't want to spend too much time researching, just get the Concorde Lifeline AGM batteries. Widely used. Other ones mentioned in thread.

Then adjust your solar controller to match AGM batteries voltage requurements. Consider a different built-in battery charger.

Please post what you end up buying.

well there are few options but it is often hard to get the specs. Warranty varies

https://www.walmart.com/ip/VMAX-XTR...-Sealed-Deep-Cycle-High-Performance/796232586

https://www.cabelas.com/product/Cab...Yw4RrxoCCh0QAvD_BwE&gclsrc=aw.ds#BVQAWidgetID

i thnk cabelas is the same as Northstar

https://northstarbattery.com/product/nsb-agm31


https://www.cabelas.com/product/Cab...Yw4RrxoCCh0QAvD_BwE&gclsrc=aw.ds#BVQAWidgetID


https://www.napaonline.com/en/p/NBP9831DT

https://www.napaonline.com/en/p/NBP9833


or the Odyssey but there are two 31M with different specs and internal resistance. I read that one might want higher resistance to avoid alternator overworking?

https://www.odysseybattery.com/Specs/MarineSeries

As you're shopping around, take a look at the Firefly Oasis carbon foam batteries. Good reviews, more life cycles than AGM, greater discharge, etc. More expensive than most AGMs at $512 each but perhaps cheaper per cycle.

https://oceanplanetenergy.com/advanced-energy-storage-systems/firefly-energys-oasis-group-31/

OldWest: what battery characteristics are important to make sure the westy charger works with them?
I heard the charger gives 10V constant but I don’t know what specs I should look into to make sure the charger works with the batteries

Each battery is different.

You have to get the battery best charging practices information on each battery brand model on how best to.charge as to what ideal voltage and what ideal amps for each stage (bulk, absorption, float).

Most info on charging is general as to gel or AGM, but different batteries of same type may want something different.

Also, the alternator charges away without any brains so some folks have looked into DC-DC chargers.

Generally, gel batteries like lower voltages and lower amps than AGMs. Gel batteries also supposedly don't like overcharging. Thus, the Westfalia charger is more compatible with gel batteries (although the van alternator puts out lots of amps).

The Sears Platinum Odyssey AGMs like very high amps charging but I figured I didn't discharge them much so they'd be in absorption phase and not bulk phase, so lower amps would be okay. Also, I figured my smart solar charger (Morningstar) would provide the right voltages.

In the ideal world, you'd get a programmable charger to fit whatever battery you get.

In the real world, AGM batteries seem to be able to take the abuse of dumb charging. Westy folks have used a variety of replacement gels and AGMs which seem to work.

Try to avoid discharging below 50% capacity, try to recharge fully as often as possible (solar is.handy), try to avoid overcharging by leaving plugged into shorepower, and other things.

Note that some European Westies have had the original gel batteries for 15 years or more.

So here is a scope creep update:
I bought the Firefly batteries after talking extensively with their customer service who has been really helpful. It seemed a good battery set (expensive but good performance and not very good warranty btw, if you sneeze on them the already short warranty expires) but then....
I learned that the Westy charger wouldn't work well with it:
"this battery charger will, over time, damage the Firefly because it is a "single Stage" charger - always holding the battery at 13.8v. This voltage is too low for the Bulk/absorption phase of charging (14.4v), and too high for the float stage (13.4v). 10a of current will not be enough - the Firefly likes .4C, or 40% of the rated AH. For a single 100AH battery, .4C would be 40 amps.
So, it will never charge fast enough - shortening the life cycles, it will also FLoat at too high a voltage, also shortening the life.
WE recommend:
1. Sterling ProCharge Ultra - 60a - https://www.sterling-power-usa.com/sterlingpowerusaprocharge12volt60ampbatterycharger.aspx
2. Victron Centaur 60, 80 or 100a chrome-extension://oemmndcbldboiebfnladdacbdfmadadm/https://www.victronenergy.com/upload/documents/Datasheet-Centaur-Charger-EN.pdf
3. Xantrex TrueCharge2 - 60a - http://www.xantrex.com/power-products/battery-chargers/truecharge-2-2.aspx
4. Newmar PT-80 - https://www.wmjmarine.com/pt80.html
5. Mastervolt - Chargemaster 12/100 - chrome-extension://oemmndcbldboiebfnladdacbdfmadadm/https://www.mastervolt.com/products/chargemaster-12v/chargemaster-12-100-3/pdf/"

All these chargers do not appear to be small like the currently used in the westy. Also they do not use the alternator input either. So I do not know what to do with that. I read that the alternator puts around 14V but I assume the westy charger then downgrades them to 10V for the original batteries.
What kind of charger have others replaced the Westy charger for that allows alternator input and also programmable output voltage?

Ok then, I thought I might simply get a NOCO Genius G15000 12V/24V 15 Amp (they said that would be good but it was preferable to get one with higher than 15A) to charge batteries when in short power or rely on solar and my Renogy Adventurer controller but then....I learned "It has an AGM setting that is OK in the bulk mode,(14.4v) but the float voltage is way too high at 13.8v." I was suggested " the Victron, 75/15 Smart controller, along with the Blue tooth Smart Sense voltage and temp sender here: https://www.victronenergy.com/solar-charge-controllers/smartsolar-mppt-75-10-75-15-100-15-100-20
https://www.victronenergy.com/accessories/smart-battery-sense"

It looks like the renogy Rover controller might work because it can be programmable.
https://www.renogy.com/rover-li-20-amp-mppt-solar-charge-controller/

I received the batteries a week after ordering them. Now I need to figure out how in earth am I going to pull the old ones out and place the new ones in. I can barely lift the new ones but there is not way I can lift the old ones from where they are sitting in the van.

1. Check with the dealer re Sprinter alternator charging. The alternator is 14v but a 200 amp alternator. So the voltage is lower than ideal but will get lots of amps.

2. DC-DC Charger. Several folks here have looked into a DC-DC charger.

https://sprinter-source.com/forum/showthread.php?t=60104&highlight=Charger

3. Electrician

You may need an electrician to get really good cables and really good crimps for any charger.

Also, any alternating current 120v circuit for a larger charger may need a bigger circuit breaker as well as thicker wiring (the original mkcrowave and battery charger circuit may not be adequate).

4. Removal and Installation of Batteries

Different techniques. Best to have two people, one to lift and one to guide.

May check with various battery installer places for a set price to remove and install. Sears guy with burly arms lifted my original gel batteries out like a biceps curl.

Others use a rope inside batery handle to pull up and out.
Someone used a jack on bench area floor and a long lever to swing saw batteries up and out.

5. Sears Platinum AGM Batteries

These like a similar charging regimen to the Firefly ones, with high charging amps.

I use the original charger (rarely), solar 200 watts mostly, and Sprinter alternator. Solar is set at 14.4 volts with maximum of 10-11 amps current, 13.4 v for float.

As I rarely discharge batteries below 80% (usually 85-90% mostly), the batteries are in absorption phase and not bulk phase. So the high amps usually desired don't come into play. (But the Firefly have a different absorption phase.)

Have had the Sears Platinums since 2011 or so and still going strong

6. Setup for External Charger

You could look into setting up the big battery charger as an external battery charger that you connect and disconnect every time you charge. Various ways to do, including quick connect.

Big difference is the ability to plug into a separate household socket and bypass existing Westfalia alernating current system.

7. Charger Inverter

May also want to look into combination charger inverter setup. Many folks have added an inverter and several have a combination charger inverter.

Victron recently came out with a new dc to dc charger that should work well for charging from the alternator.

https://www.victronenergy.com/dc-dc-converters/orion-tr smart


The Victron solar charge controller is a good product but beware that if you have 12 volt solar panels they must have 36 cells. IE: a single 32 cell panel or a parallel pair of 32 cell panels will not work well with this product.

The OEM charger has an adjustable output voltage. You can adjust it as high as 15 volts. Or you can adjust it down to 13.4 or possibly lower. Just depends if you want to float on shore power or push it into the absorption phase - being careful to turn the charger off once the battery is topped off... I attached an image that shows which potentiometer to adjust.

I also attached an image showing how I use a seat belt to lift the batteries. If you wrap the loose end of the seat belt over your shoulder/back you can use your legs to lift the battery - kind of like belaying a climbing partner. Might need a second pair of hands to pry the forward face of the battery as it wants to come up at an angle... Hard to describe... Just have to play around with it

Original Poster:

If you plan to travel to northern Florida anytime soon, might check with John Palmer at Palmer Energy. Back in 2012, he installed a 300 watt Morningstar SureSine inverter for me (I helped a bit). He also let me borrow some of his stuff to install a flexible solar panel to the Westy roof. His prices are very reasonable. He also likes you to understand what he's doing and you can help.

Some stuff is hard to do without the proper tools like cables and crimps.

http://palmerenergysystems.com/


There are some Westy owners with repair businesses which might be able to help.

Otherwise, might post to see if any Westy owners know of any installers who might help you design and install.

Don't know anything about these mobile repair folks, but AMSolar's website has a list of folks who do solar and related work:

https://amsolar.com/rv-solar-installers?rq=Installers

Thank you OldWest and Oneman!

The vintron DC-DC charger looks really nice and it is about the size of the original in the Westy.
Have you used the Orion-Tr Smart DC-DC Charger Isolated 12/12-30?
I do not know how old the batteries in the Westy were because I only bought the van last year. Maybe I fried them, maybe it was time for them to go.
But I certainly feel I need a more reliable system than remembering to connect or disconnect stuff to not fry them.

The firefly requirements are below from the manual which do not appear to agree with the existing Westy charger or my renogy adventurer solar charger for bulk nor float:

-G31 to 14.4V with temperature compensation (bulk phase) and continue charging until the charging current drops to 0.5A for the G31 (absorption phase time will vary).
-set the float voltage to 13.4V o 13.5V for the G31

"For a complete charge cycle, charge the G31 to 14.4V/L15+ to 4.8V with temperature compensation (bulk phase) and continue charging until the charging current drops to 0.5A for the G31 or 2A for the L15+ (absorption phase time will vary). You DO NOT need to fully charge the batteries each cycle in order to maintain the capacity, however, we recommend doing a complete charge cycle at least once a month when cycling once per day or every 30 cycles if running a couple cycles a day. Ideally, if the battery is under heavy use, we recommend doing a full charge cycle at least every 2 weeks.
• For charging sources that may be charging the battery for an extended period of time (solar, or an alternator if motoring for a while); set the float voltage to 13.4V o 13.5V for the G31 and 4.5V for the L15. Firefly batteries do not require a float charge. But, if you are float charging, due to the their longer projected lifespan, it is important to keep the
float voltage at 13.4V or 13.5V (4.5V for each L15+) to ensure the battery lasts for as many cycles as possible. Reset to bulk phase: for programmable charging sources, adjust the “reset to bulk phase” to occur if the battery voltage drops below 12.0V for >1 minute for the G31 or 4.0V for >1 minute for the L15+.
• Note that periodic fast (high current) charging can help restore usable capacity after periods of repeated slow charging and deep discharge cycles. Especially if continuously deep cycling, then ideally once a week or so the batteries should be charged at a current of 0.4C or more (40 Amps for a 100 Ah battery). Or at least 25A per G31 battery. For applications lacking fast charging capability, contact OPE or Firefly USA for alternative restoration procedures. Due to the low impedance design, Oasis batteries can tolerate in-rush current levels as high as 3C (300A for a 100Ah battery). Don’t be afraid of deep cycling and fast recharging with Firefly batteries!
• The optimum operating temperature for a lead-acid battery is 25°C (77°F). As a rule of thumb, every 8-10°C (14-18°F) rise in temperature will cut the battery life in half. Note that continuous duty at elevated temperature will shorten the life of any battery.

"For applications lacking fast charging capability, contact OPE or Firefly USA for alternative restoration procedures."

Quote from above post. Did OPE or Firefly give you any alternative procedures?

Yes for example those below but they tend to be very bulky

1. Alt to battery charger - https://www.sterling-power-usa.com/SterlingPower12volt130ampalternatortobatterycharger.aspx
2. A splitter - https://www.sterling-power-usa.com/ProSplit-RZeroVoltDropMarineBatteryIsolator-9.aspx

Thinking (or not) aloud re options.

A. Battery Charger

1. Original Westfalia Charger

Confirm it works, or fix.

Per OneManVan, adjust voltage to ideal 14.4 Volts for Firefly Oasis.

Only 10 amps, but use alternator charging for high amp charging, and if DC-DC charger, can get right voltage.

2. Replacement Battery Charger

Various options with programmable voltages and higher amps.

But higher amp chargers use more space.

Can locate under kitchen sink (beware of water leak risks), underneath countertop behind back seat, where metal plate cover panel is, angled wall part near hall behind rear seat, etc.

Need to check adequate circuit breaker and wiring for alternating current, and same for direct current cables.

Note: As mentioned before, could set up as a removable portable charger. Firefly Oasis info you posted suggests high amp charging once per 30 discharge cycles or once per week if deep discharges, etc. You might do this on a temporary basis until everything is all done.

Also, need to check for adequate ventilation, fan noise (if any), etc.

3. Charger Inverter Combination

Use more space. Magnum 1012 MMS pure sine is a good one but only 1000 watts (may be enough for original microwave).

If want higher amps, search Discus for his huge charger inverter under bathroom floor (where black tank used to be).

B. Solar Charging

1. Orignal Controller.

Adjustable voltages for each bulk, absorption and float?

2. Replacement Controller

3. Piggyback off DC-DC Charger

If you get a DC-DC charger off the alternator, may also have inputs for solar.

C. Alternator Charging (voltage setting is only 14 volts or so and not 14.4 volts).

1. DC-DC Charger

OneManVan's suggested charger can be placed in parallel for more amps. As the charger is 30 amps, two of them in parallel would meet the 25 amp charging current for each Firefly battery but not as high as the ideal 40 amps each for charging.

If can stack three or more in parallel, would get closer to ideal. But if have that many, may want to go with a higher amp one.

2. Sterling Option

That one looks good. Search other threads in other subforums about this Sterling option.

3. Splitter

Don't see how the splitter increases charging voltage to 14.4 volts?

D. Summary

You have three sources of charging (charger, solar, and alternator)

Ideally, each source of charging is set at 14.4 volts charging for bulk and absorption charging.

Also, for every 30 discharge cycles, the info you posted says Firefly Oasis batteries want at least a 25 amp charging current each, or once per week for heavy discharges, etc.

Insofar as the float stage of 13.4 volts, this will occur primarily if Westy is being stored and no drains on batteries.

Otherwise, if Westy is being used, fridge will be a constant drain. Lights, heater, water pump, etc., will drain batteries.

Your use of Westy may affect your decision making. Most importantly, how much do you discharge batteries? (I don't discharge my batteries much so solar usually does all the charging.)

If you dry camp extensively in same spot without moving, solar will be more important. If still have generator, a high amp charger would be good. If want to rely on engine alternator, there is also a high idle option.

If you travel a lot each day, then the alternator (with DC-DC charger) may be more important.

If you drive short distances but plug in every day (Westy as every day driver or campground every night with hookup), then the charger may be more important.

E. Other Considerations

1. Extra Charging for Engine Starting Battery

May need a source of extra charging for engine starting battery. Alternator charges engine starting battery.

Original battery charger will charge engine starting battery for 3 hours if engine starting battery is low.

Various solar controllers can charge two or more battery banks (coach house is one bank, engine starting is a second bank).

A Trik-L start csn siphon extra charging of coach house batteries to engine starting battery.

2. Alternator

Check with Firefly that batteries will not suck up and kill alternator like some lithium batteries can do.

In other words, batteries are usually self-limiting as to how much charging current they can absorb but lithium batteries will suck up every available charging amp and may burn out alternator (or something like that).

In any event, the Bosch 200 amp alternator may have a lifespan as to how long each duty cycle can be at what output.

OldWest:
I do not believe the original westfalia charger allows for adjusting the output voltage. Does it?

Post 31 above from OneManVan, with photo of screwdriver with red handle. OneManVan wrote:

"The OEM charger has an adjustable output voltage. You can adjust it as high as 15 volts. Or you can adjust it down to 13.4 or possibly lower. Just depends if you want to float on shore power or push it into the absorption phase - being careful to turn the charger off once the battery is topped off... I attached an image that shows which potentiometer to adjust."

Oh ! I missed that piece of information. I didn’t catch that.
It looks like the firefly enjoys high Amps. How many amps come out of the OEM? 10Amps?
“For repetitive deep cycling, note that periodic fast charging has a positive impact on
effective battery capacity. If deep cycling, ideally once or twice per week, the batteries
should be charged at a current of 0.4C or more (40 Amps for a 100 Ah battery), or at
least 25A per battery. Note that periodic fast charging can help restore usable capacity
after periods of constant slow charging after deep discharge cycles. For applications
lacking fast charging capability, contact OPE or Firefly USA for alternative restoration
procedures
•
•
• The optimum operating temperature for a lead-acid battery is 25°C (77°F). As a rule of thumb, every 8-10°C (14-18°F) rise in temperature will cut the battery life in half. Note that continuous duty at elevated temperature will shorten the life of any battery.

More info in this links about advantagesand disadvantages of splitter vs B2B charger from alternator:
https://www.explorist.life/how-to-charge-diy-camper-van-batteries-with-vehicle-alternator/
https://windinmyface.com/Sprinter-Alternator-Primary-Behavior.html

"If you have a 100 amp battery bank, charge via the alternator using a sub 50-Amp B2B Charger

If you have a 200 amp battery bank, charge via the alternator using a sub 100-Amp B2B Charger. UNLESS your alternator is smaller than 140 amps, you could, in that case, use an Isolator.

If you have 300 amp hours or more in your battery bank: Choose the isolator UNLESS being able to feed your batteries a regulated amperage is important to you."