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Old 09-08-2019, 02:14 PM   #1
Aqua Puttana
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Default T1N Replacement Engine Costs

This will be a compilation of posts/threads to give members an idea of some of the engine replacement options available.

I'll begin with posts from the thread that Dennis Lindenengineering started.

Sprinter Wallet Flush --Texas [Firm] part 2
https://sprinter-source.com/forum/sh...ad.php?t=79037

Thanks goes to Dennis and all contributors.

Quote:
Originally Posted by lindenengineering View Post
The owner has hired us to conduct a post mortem on this engine from Sprinter Depot.

It seems like its going to be attorney time!

Dennis
Quote:
Originally Posted by lindenengineering View Post
Lets clear somethings up and STOP trying to criticise my business model because I clearly I do it better than you! I employ people and I am clearly not an employee like you.

When I give a quote to a customer for an engine in a T1N sprinter van, the BEST option is the MB rebuild.
Its great value for money for what you get @ $9540 .
Install is 15 hours which includes radiator cleaning & sundry installs at cost plus on parts like hoses etc.
Warranty is one year or 36,000 miles

Not surprisingly some owners budgets won't go that far!
The next step down is Jasper long block rebuild .
A Jasper long block rebuild option is $7428.
Again the same RnR labor charge of 15 hours but there is an additional 6 hours of labor to dress the engine by transferring existing ancillary parts to the new unit.
On this option there can be an additional $1750 for exchange MB injectors

The next step down is our own in house rebuilds which come out to about $6500 fully built plus labor turn key, but turbo is extra! This final pricing is dependent upon budgets which are tailored to a customer's requirements.
We warrant these engines for one year with unlimited mileage in that period. The end budget cost has to be conducive to the success of the rebuild or I won't build it .
Judging by the number we have built over ten years or so , it seems to be a good formula.

The last option is a take out used engine.
If I supply the unit, its between $4000 to $4500 per unit plus install.
Again the FIE is tested and the engine cleared for future use.
Warranty is limited to 90 days and it only covers major component failures.
In short I have to make a profit or I don't do it.
Dennis
Quote:
Originally Posted by lindenengineering View Post
... & sundry installs at cost plus on parts like hoses etc. ...
Vic comment:
Don't underestimate the overall costs associated with labor and additional sundry parts. Good shops don't have cheap labor rates. Additional MB parts can be pricey. Some unexpected costs are likely when properly installing a replacement engine.

Quote:
Originally Posted by danski0224 View Post
Does the MB reman come with the turbo?

Given the approximate $3k price spread, it doesn't seem to make much sense to choose anything other than the MB reman.... or am I missing something?
Quote:
Originally Posted by lindenengineering View Post
Yes!
The only thing short is the alternator, accessory belt and the PAS pump. If you can afford it, its the very best option and its priced right!

[NCV3 Engine Comment]
I might add that on the 906 [NCV3 models] Sprinter, the re-man engine range at about $9000 I 4 & $13,000 V6 respectively, (Ex MB USA works) and really its the ONLY way to go for a reliable re-power when you need a replacement .
Even Jasper doesn't do one of those.

As a footnote this year and the hot weather has (by coincidence) caused an abnormal amount of wrecked engine tow ins on T1N's.

We sold four MB re-man installs & two Jasper long block units to date .
I have offered two owners a used take out as a budget option, but being financially challenged those two are on sky hooks. The rest are in some form or another of "in house" rebuild programs. Two guys have towed theirs home for DIY attention.

As a comparison let's look at a Landrover LR4 and its Ford based AJ series engine.
A replacement 5 litre gasoline engine is a few dollars short of $16,000.
It has a $600 core which must be paid up front before delivery.
Then it attracts a 17,5 hours install labor charge !
I am about to do one of these next week.

I suppose the light of end costs in the dark tunnel has to be the post 2010 1750 cc Prius engine/powerpack.
Prone somewhat to head gasket failure from overheating & neglect the coolant finds it way on top of the piston. The super powerful electric starter motor has no truck for hydro locked engines so it rakes the pistons and rods, bending or breaking at least one.
On that car when a check engine light comes on YOU STOP!
BUT nobody does!
Everything is sensors and electric water pumps.
The most cost expedient repair is replace the the whole power pack from a later donor collision car !
Turn key out the door is $4500 plus tax engine & transaxle etc including labor all day, every day.
And it gets 3 months unlimited mileage warranty.
What can you say? They sell like hotcakes!
Its only money!
Cheers Dennis

This thread is closed to limit questions here.

My plan is to add info from other threads as I stumble upon it. I will gladly add posts/information provided by PM. Please include the post number link to the thread or separate full comments in text.

The single post number link is accessed by clicking the number in the upper right hand corner. Then simply copy and paste the Sprinter-source single post link to your PM. (An additional step would be to click on the thread title in the upper right corner of the single post. Clicking that returns you to the full thread at the single post number. Copying that link will take people back to entire thread vs the stand alone single number post.)

vic

Added:

Cylinder head cracks can happen from overheating.
Quote:
Originally Posted by lindenengineering View Post
All these repair theories BUT!
The area is thermally and mechanically stressed.
It needs to changed.

Yes you can put something chemical to seal it in there but what happens in service if it leaks again? Then drops a significant amount of coolant into the affected cylinder, say overnight.
The next morning you come out to start it and a big clonk! You have bent a rod and maybe even worse!
Wrecked the engine.
These heads do cracks at the injector hole to valve seat anyway when heat distressed, rendering them scrap. Its the biggest cause of scrappage next to excessive warpage during overhauls . In both cases its destined for the scrap bin.

In fact on something like the later Prius with 1750 engine you have to be careful about the same problem. In the event of a head gasket failure and coolant entering the cylinder. The powerful MG1 electric motor rotates the engine to start NOT traditional starter motor. It has enough force to rotate the internal mechanical parts--any coolant in the cylinder results in a bent rod.

Better to seriously consider changing the head as a repair remedy.
Dennis
As always clicking on the blue arrow icon within any quote box will take you to the original post/thread.
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Last edited by Aqua Puttana; 09-08-2019 at 03:06 PM.
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Old 10-09-2019, 10:58 PM   #2
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Default Re: T1N Replacement Engine Costs

My 2004 T1N came to me with a year old replacement MB Reman engine. It came with a 4 year and 50,000 mile warranty. The cost of the engine (from the original repair invoice) was $12,850 to the prior owner.

The engine was replaced by Mercedes Benz of St Charles Ill.

That said, it hasnt been easy to get warranty work done on it. There is a huge amount of confusion with Authorized Freightliner and Mercedes dealers regarding who can and who cant do warranty work on a Freightliner badged Sprinter and then,....there is the problem that a dealer willing to help out and do the work,....often does NOT know what to do because they apparently dont see T1N Sprinters very often.
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Old 10-10-2019, 02:44 AM   #3
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Default Re: T1N Replacement Engine Costs

Quote:
Originally Posted by bcolins View Post
My 2004 T1N came to me with a year old replacement MB Reman engine. It came with a 4 year and 50,000 mile warranty. The cost of the engine (from the original repair invoice) was $12,850 to the prior owner.

The engine was replaced by Mercedes Benz of St Charles Ill.

That said, it hasnt been easy to get warranty work done on it. There is a huge amount of confusion with Authorized Freightliner and Mercedes dealers regarding who can and who cant do warranty work on a Freightliner badged Sprinter and then,....there is the problem that a dealer willing to help out and do the work,....often does NOT know what to do because they apparently dont see T1N Sprinters very often.
First!
There is a procedure!
You need to contact the MB dealer that supplied the engine. Their parts dept will have sales record to the their (in this case) workshop as a cost center transaction.

With that information at hand you present it to the MB shop who is about to do any warranty related work.
In the normal realm of things the repairing shop manager calls the MB dealer in question who supplied it and he/she obtains the relevant info to process the claim.

I agree its a bit long winded and you having "to walk" a claim through the dealer minefield.
I think this is a bit lame but they (MB) have their procedures & some might say its to discourage claims

For us it has worked but on one occasion with a MB dealer in Palm Springs although tentatively recognized as cooler leak and under warranty coverage they wanted a $6000 deposit to cover the bill if MB rejected it.
We at Linden covered it with a C/C for our customer (already feeling the financial pinch) of a new engine two weeks earlier and in the ultimo it was a warrantied.
All's well that ends well I suppose.
If it has of been rejected I would have taken it out of our suppling dealers hide. We do about $3000 per day with these folks.
I suppose like many justified warranty claims perseverance is the name of the game somethings especially with the NFFs' & NDF's .
All the best
Dennis
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Old 10-10-2019, 05:21 PM   #4
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Default Re: T1N Replacement Engine Costs

Doesn't Texas have some sort of laws about must-match-brand servicing? (foggy memory from a decade ago)
bcolins is in San Antonio, and MB may not be "legally able" to service a Freightliner.

--dick
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Old 10-10-2019, 08:34 PM   #5
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Default Re: T1N Replacement Engine Costs

Quote:
Originally Posted by autostaretx View Post
Doesn't Texas have some sort of laws about must-match-brand servicing? (foggy memory from a decade ago)
bcolins is in San Antonio, and MB may not be "legally able" to service a Freightliner.

--dick
Yeah,......I didn't want to complicate the story Dick. You are right. When the Daimler Chrysler arrangement split,...4 states, Texas, NY, NJ, and Florida were left in the lurch; a Mercedes dealer cannot perform warranty work on an FL badged Sprinter, Only a Freightliner dealer who additionally is an authorized Sprinter dealer may.

That said, the local MB dealer a few miles from me did offer to look at my oil leak last spring, even gave me a loaner Mercedes to drive. They felt it was not going to be a problem because the engine was installed by a Mercedes dealer. They had the van for over 3 weeks, claiming all the broken Amazon Sprinters had their techs covered up.,......then called me and said to pick it up,....when I got there, they claimed they could not find the oil leak (oil pan was covered in oil on the passenger side) and that they had replaced the water pump,.....still a mystery to me,....and yes it continued to leak oil. I called them a few months ago asking if they could take another look at it,....they said OK, and gave me another new Mercedes to drive,....I mentioned that I also was smelling diesel fuel, and asked them to look around for that as well.

10 days later, a young woman who claimed to be the service manager called me and said "I understand you have some questions about your warranty",......I had no idea what she was talking about, and told her that I was encouraged to bring the van in for another look at the oil leak they could not find the last time,....when they replaced the water pump." She said something to the effect of,..." We never should have done that work before,.....and we never got fully reimbursed by Mercedes, and we cant do this work under warranty now",....Hmmmm,.....this is sounding like a failure to communicate to me.
In any case,.....I went and returned their free loaner car and picked up my van still leaking.

I requested a print out of the work recommended by their tech which suggested that the oil pan and gasket be replaced for $1900 (WHAT?) which sounded to me like they were just trying to build warranty revenue.

So, I called the San Antonio Freightliner dealer,.....couldn't help as they are not an authorized Sprinter dealer,.....I called the dealer in Austin who asked me to drive there (120 miles) leave the van for 2+ weeks and they would eventually get to it. I mentioned that I had the diagnoses from the Mercedes dealer and could scan and email it to him,...but he was not willing to work with me on that.

So, I call the Houston dealer who previously was willing to work with me on another issue, and he asked me to email him the MB dealer recommended service notes, and a copy of my invoice for the new engine,....I did,.....a couple months went by and eventually he did bring in an oil pan (Just in case, but neither of us believed it would need anything more than a gasket) and a gasket, and I drove the 220 miles there to have the work done. I left at 2:45 AM arrived there at 7:30 a half hour before my ",appointment",...and nobody knew anything about me arriving or what was being done or where my parts were,....or even what the parts were. 9:00 the service manager who I have been working with comes in,.....but its another 2 hours before the technician finds the parts,....welll the gasket anyway,.....and proceeds to drain the sump and remove the oil pan bolts,....at 2:30,....no additional progress made,....I find out they have decided that the oil pan cant be removed without pulling the transmission for some reason. Long story short,.....after a bit of conversation,....it is decided that they will re-install the oil pan bolts, refill the engine oil,......and send me back home 220 miles away without doing the work we had been planning for months in advance.

There was conversation about bringing the van back and leaving it for a week or two, but frankly don't think I will,....since I have now determined that the transmission does NOT have to be pulled to drop the oil pan, I am thinking that I will eventually do the work myself.

Upside,....they did give me fresh oil ,....so I may drive it for a while,....maybe a year,....or 5000 miles or so,....and they replace the gasket and change the oil.

Btw, Leaking of oil seems to have been reduced since they re- installed and (hopefully) re-torqued the oil pan bolts, AND I found the fuel leak I had mentioned to the MB Store on my own,.....just a loose fuel line clamp (not the correct fuel line clamp by the way)

The combination of the incorrect fuel line clamp,...improperly tightened (should have been an MB crimp on style clamp) allowing a fuel leak on the top of the engine and the now reduced oil pan oil leak suggesting that the oil pan screws were never properly torqued either (AND one oil pan bolt completely missing) Has me now questioning much of what was done when the "NEW" MB REMAN engine was replaced,.....losing confidence in what was done, and those that are charged with the task of potentially doing any future warranty work.

Brian

So, Dick,.....now you know why I didn't bring this up before,......A VERY long story,....and actually,......there is more too it than what I have written about here.

Whew! Exhausting just thinking about it.

BTW,.....I was an assistant service manager for a Mercedes dealer fresh out of college,....so I understand the entire process,....and as a result,....find this even more frustrating.

ABTW,.....The Mercedes dealer in Illinois that installed the engine in Nov 2018, incorrectly input the vehicle vin in the Mercedes VMI online warranty work reporting system,...so there is no record in the Mercedes Database of the new engine,....only my copy of the original invoice for the work showing dates, miles and that it came with a 4 year 50,000 mile warranty. There was considerable discussion about this as well with the dealer in Illinois. They claim that Mercedes Benz sent people there for a week trying to fix it,....and were never able to,.. and so as a remedy of sorts, they had to create a fake warranty claim that was nothing more than a reference stating when the engine was replaced,.....and that they should look at another repair invoice with an incorrect VIN associated with it. What a mess.

Repeated screw ups by every party involved,....mind boggling.

Brian
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Old 10-11-2019, 03:21 AM   #6
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Default Re: T1N Replacement Engine Costs

Since this is a post direct at Dick as an open forum response I will just add some comments mostly technical for the benefit of forum observers .

To change the oil pan gasket or sump as it sometimes called is actually a 14 hour job plus 0,5 setting up..
In short its an engine out job!

Essentially you cannot drop the pan completely since the K frame cross member only allows a drop of about 3 inches.
Yes you can raise the power pack at the front by using a pair of 4 x 2 soft wood blocks but that will only allow you to gain access to the oil pump, removing it from the block and let it drop in the pan.
Then you have to carefully slide it into the "slot access window you have created between block and pan.. THEN without crippling or bending the gasket, fish up the oil pump, ensure the O ring hasn't fallen out, then install it on the chain and bolt it all up at 22 Nm torque .Phew what an exercise in Houdini ergonomics. AND you still haven't attacked the possible issue of a leaking rear main seal which has a ribbed sealing strip where the seal housing meets pan & gasket .
Yes I suppose you can use a line of silicon gobwhack in lieu of a new rear main seal but under warranty??
Nah! Its a rip out !
In short transmission assy off, flex plate out and do it properly, because the special flex sealing lips of the rear main seal might be the culprit.
Get it wrong ,skimp the job and the customer will complain and yelp you.
So 14 hours it it plus materials. For a rip out doesn't mean a rip off!

Under warranty there will be no rip off nor padding out.
Labor warranty times are traditionally "tight" and the std warranty labor rate is allied usually to a pre-negotiated warranty compensation rates being applicable to each dealer and often related to new vehicle inventory sold annually! In any case about 35% below std charge out rates..
Consequently human nature comes into play since the warranty repairing dealer "hasn't" enjoyed any profit from selling the engine in the first place nor is it going to get top shop priority!
In fact you can get foot dragging scenarios in some circumstances hoping you will go away.
So again perseverance and patience is the name of the game.
Dennis

Last edited by lindenengineering; 10-11-2019 at 03:23 AM.
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