ANY WAY TO FORCE A REGENERATION?

D

Deleted member 50714

Guest
:thinking:
Explain please...
I am not Gabe but will respond with a simple explanation,

Motor vehicles utilizing internal combustion, Sprinters being diesel, and equipped with sophisticated, apparently, yet to be perfected emission control devices. Most notably the SCR system with frail sensors, appear to fair better when operated as described in the owners manual. Not interrupting DPF regenerations, or allowing the DEF fluid Low level warning to activate, are two quirks that can cause a wallet enema. More simply, Sprinters are designed to operate, not remain static.
 

aviatordoc

Active member
Started the day at 96% particulate filter load as displayed on the color screen on the dash. I had to go to the dealer who is 2 hr drive away. Well it went up to 100% and as I was driving along on the highway, it started to count down and went to 0%. No noises no display that it is doing it nothing. I am happy. Mccaw was right, it starts auto when it gets to a 100%. This on a 2019 with 1000 miles.
 

220817a

Independent & Self Reliant - From Chattanooga TN
I will ignore trying to force a regeneration, after reading the posts here, it doesn't seem to be part of the problem. What is frustrating is the fact I didn't realize that changing the battery would cause this problem. Seems there should be some built in protection because there are lot better of times power can be interrupted. Ptheland, I appreciate the tips on a possible driving cycle, it sure couldn't hurt.

Is there any way to prevent this in the future?

Steve
Why not do a forced regeneration? It does not hurt anything... The question is, do you have a tool to do it with? If you take the van to a shop or dealer for a forced regeneration, ask them to do it while the vehicle is moving/driven. That is the best option and Xentry gives you that option. Icarsoft MBII or V2 gives you the option of a parked forced regeneration only...

By disconnecting the power all the memory/history was erased and you have to build operational/functioning memory of the emission controls in order to pass the emissions test. History of regeneration is more likely required in order to pass the emissions test and the guy that told you about is correct.
 

Kajtek1

2015 3500 X long limo RV
Started the day at 96% particulate filter load as displayed on the color screen on the dash. I had to go to the dealer who is 2 hr drive away. Well it went up to 100% and as I was driving along on the highway, it started to count down and went to 0%. No noises no display that it is doing it nothing. I am happy. Mccaw was right, it starts auto when it gets to a 100%. This on a 2019 with 1000 miles.
The regeneration program has about a dozen required parameters to start, so on occasions soot level can go as high as 200%.
Our sedan is mostly city-driven with 5-10 miles going and then return.
Since I got X-gauge about a year ago, I monitor regeneration and take extra loop when I am too close home to finish. Usually it takes about 10 miles in the city to complete.
Couple of strange things
-regeneration start for few seconds when you press the pedal deeply (entering freeway) regardless soot %
- sedan has ECO stops who turn the engine off at red lights. That was still working during regeneration
-once DW took the sedan with soot at 90% and I assume she will come back before 100%. Bad luck she come home with started regeneration and park the car for the night. Following morning I took it for short drive and once the engine reached 60C, the regeneration restarted. At this point I made 10 mile loop to have it completed.
That's why IMHO having ScanGauge to monitor that stuff is important. .. unless you use your Sprinter for straight 100 or more miles drive. :professor:
 

ptheland

2013 144" low top Passgr
Why not do a forced regeneration? It does not hurt anything...
It takes time and fuel and accomplishes nothing in terms of passing a smog check in California.

By disconnecting the power all the memory/history was erased and you have to build operational/functioning memory of the emission controls in order to pass the emissions test.
That is the monitors closing as mentioned above.

History of regeneration is more likely required in order to pass the emissions test and the guy that told you about is correct.
That history is not required in California. All you need is for enough of the monitors to close. That would be all but 2 monitors for slightly older diesel engines (including the 2012 in question in this thread and my 2013). Newer diesel vehicles will need all monitors to close. (I'm hemming and hawing a bit on the exact years because I don't know the exact cut off. I only bothered to learn the requirements for my model year, and that somewhere after mine the requirement changed to all monitors closed.)

Perhaps that regen history is necessary in other places. But the OP and I are in California, so that's what I'm dealing with here.
 

Inspector

2012 Roadtrek Agile
I really appreciate the information being shared here and I'm learning a lot about how the van emission systems work. I still think it's a shame to lose the history because of a battery change. Awhile back I was having a parasitic drain that kept running the battery down, during the troubleshooting I learned about the battery disconnect by the gas pedal. It was handy to use but it must have the same downside of wiping out the history.

Steve
 

220817a

Independent & Self Reliant - From Chattanooga TN
The regeneration program has about a dozen required parameters to start, so on occasions soot level can go as high as 200%.
Our sedan is mostly city-driven with 5-10 miles going and then return.
Since I got X-gauge about a year ago, I monitor regeneration and take extra loop when I am too close home to finish. Usually it takes about 10 miles in the city to complete.
Couple of strange things
-regeneration start for few seconds when you press the pedal deeply (entering freeway) regardless soot %
- sedan has ECO stops who turn the engine off at red lights. That was still working during regeneration
-once DW took the sedan with soot at 90% and I assume she will come back before 100%. Bad luck she come home with started regeneration and park the car for the night. Following morning I took it for short drive and once the engine reached 60C, the regeneration restarted. At this point I made 10 mile loop to have it completed.
That's why IMHO having ScanGauge to monitor that stuff is important. .. unless you use your Sprinter for straight 100 or more miles drive. :professor:
There is no 90% or 100% soot level. If you are basing yourself on some sort of reading with a scan tool, it simply means that the scan tool is not showing you the raw data.

The threshold for triggering a regeneration on a NCV3 3.0 V6, as an example, is 8 grams per 1 liter (8g/1L). 8 grams vs 1 Liter in terms of volume is not 100 % fill level. One nice thing about Xentry is, in this case, that it will show you the threshold and actual value. Other scanners will show you actual value only.
 

220817a

Independent & Self Reliant - From Chattanooga TN
It takes time and fuel and accomplishes nothing in terms of passing a smog check in California.



That is the monitors closing as mentioned above.



That history is not required in California. All you need is for enough of the monitors to close. That would be all but 2 monitors for slightly older diesel engines (including the 2012 in question in this thread and my 2013). Newer diesel vehicles will need all monitors to close. (I'm hemming and hawing a bit on the exact years because I don't know the exact cut off. I only bothered to learn the requirements for my model year, and that somewhere after mine the requirement changed to all monitors closed.)

Perhaps that regen history is necessary in other places. But the OP and I are in California, so that's what I'm dealing with here.
How do you know that a history of a regeneration is not required? How did you come to that conclusion?
 

showkey

Well-known member
How do you know that a history of a regeneration is not required? How did you come to that conclusion?

Likely because the inspection (in most areas) consists of .....visual inspection, no CEL and are monitors closed ( or certain % of monitors closed based on location). The guys doing state inspections are not looking at live data streams.

This thread as gone off the rails with technical data. Some make Sprinters a hobby, others just want drive the dam thing and move on.
 
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aviatordoc

Active member
There is no 90% or 100% soot level. If you are basing yourself on some sort of reading with a scan tool, it simply means that the scan tool is not showing you the raw data.

The threshold for triggering a regeneration on a NCV3 3.0 V6, as an example, is 8 grams per 1 liter (8g/1L). 8 grams vs 1 Liter in terms of volume is not 100 % fill level. One nice thing about Xentry is, in this case, that it will show you the threshold and actual value. Other scanners will show you actual value only.
On the 19 model, there is the option to call up on your display the particulate filter load. You dont need a scanner tool.
 

Kajtek1

2015 3500 X long limo RV
This thread as gone off the rails with technical data. Some make Sprinters a hobby, others just want drive the dam thing and move on.
So what else is new?
OP got the good response in first 2-3 replies, but I prize Internet for expanding the subject way beyond, so other can benefit with better knowledge.
I am glad to hear that 2019 models have dash gauge for DPF. When I was buying new Ford truck - for 2016 they had option for a switch delaying regeneration to convenient time.
When I order 2017 model- that was no longer option :bash::bash::bash:
 

ptheland

2013 144" low top Passgr
This thread as gone off the rails with technical data. Some make Sprinters a hobby, others just want drive the dam thing and move on.
Perhaps a bit. But since the technical data has been raised, it's important to get it right (or at least point out obvious errors put in place by bullies who can't comprehend the possibility that they are wrong or don't know everything.)
 

220817a

Independent & Self Reliant - From Chattanooga TN
Likely because the inspection (in most areas) consists of .....visual inspection, no CEL and are monitors closed ( or certain % of monitors closed based on location). The guys doing state inspections are not looking at live data streams.

This thread as gone off the rails with technical data. Some make Sprinters a hobby, others just want drive the dam thing and move on.
The guy that is doing the state inspection might not be looking at live data, but the computer/machine that is hooked up to the vehicle reads everything, the live data and the history.
 

220817a

Independent & Self Reliant - From Chattanooga TN
On the 19 model, there is the option to call up on your display the particulate filter load. You dont need a scanner tool.
That is a nice option to have, but 100% fill/load that you might see displayed does not mean that DPF is 100% filled or full of soot. It simply means that the lowest threshold at which a regeneration is triggered has been reached. On the 906 Sprinter that lowest threshold is 8g/1L. See below an example of it...

https://mega.nz/#!56pTTKRA!O6B6ywyDTrdS8BfbP47tmvbuQ7pRSH6Avtp8G52EtZ0

By the way, which dealership did you go to? Knoxville or Atlanta? if you are located in Chattanooga that means that you are just across the state line from me.
 

220817a

Independent & Self Reliant - From Chattanooga TN
Because I've read this document describing the smog check procedures in California.

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct...k_Manual.pdf&usg=AOvVaw135ilndM6GYXCu60HmUYXj

How did you come to the conclusion that a regeneration history WAS required?
A complete regeneration IS a closed monitor that you talk about. What does "No CEL" mean to you?

To me it means that there are no deviation in the operation/function of the engine and its systems from the original programming. As soon as there is a deviation, the check engine light is triggered. A successful and complete regeneration is a complete/closed monitor of the DPF system. Without the history of a complete regeneration there is no way to know if the DPF system works. It is not simply about reading the live data, temperature sensors and the fill level of the DPF...

You see, I do software modifications such as DEF/DPF/EGR/Flap/EKAS/Lambda deletes and every time I do a DPF delete, you have to modified the operational map of the regeneration in order to make sure that the vehicle will not try to regenerate after the removal of the DPF from the exhaust system. The miracle of the WinOLS... I encourage you to learn how to use WinOLS too, it will help you a lot more than simply reading documents about smog test procedure...
 

ptheland

2013 144" low top Passgr
A complete regeneration IS a closed monitor that you talk about. What does "No CEL" mean to you?
I provided some backup. How about you do the same.

FTR, "No CEL" does not mean that all monitors are closed. It means that no malfunction has been detected. Immediately after you clear codes, the CEL will be off and all monitors will be open. The CEL will not turn on unless a monitor closes AND that particular monitor detects a malfunction.

So I grabbed my scan tool (Autel MD808 pro) and got the list of monitors on my 2013 van. I have 9.

Misfire
Fuel system
Comprehensive component
NMHC catalyst
NOx aftertreatment
Boost pressure system
Exhaust gas sensor
PM filter
EGR an/or VVT system

These are the monitors that must be closed (or complete) to be ready for a smog check in California. For 2014 and earlier models (I stumbled on the date when searching for more information), 2 of these monitors can be open (or incomplete). 2015 and newer must have all monitors closed/complete. And again, this is for California. Other jurisdictions can be different.

[break for some more searching]

And a bit more searching turned up that these 9 monitors are common to all diesel vehicles with an OBDII system.

Here's a another explanation of OBDII readiness monitors:
https://www.obdautodoctor.com/scantool-garage/obd-readiness-monitors-explained


I encourage you to learn how to use WinOLS too, it will help you a lot more than simply reading documents about smog test procedure...
I'm sure it's useful for programming. But what I'm trying to help explain is what the law (or regulations) in California require. Learning a programming language is not going to help to explain or understand the law.
 

ptheland

2013 144" low top Passgr
The guy that is doing the state inspection might not be looking at live data, but the computer/machine that is hooked up to the vehicle reads everything, the live data and the history.
Citation, please. And specific to California, which is the subject under discussion.
 

220817a

Independent & Self Reliant - From Chattanooga TN
I provided some backup. How about you do the same.

FTR, "No CEL" does not mean that all monitors are closed. It means that no malfunction has been detected. Immediately after you clear codes, the CEL will be off and all monitors will be open. The CEL will not turn on unless a monitor closes AND that particular monitor detects a malfunction.

So I grabbed my scan tool (Autel MD808 pro) and got the list of monitors on my 2013 van. I have 9.

Misfire
Fuel system
Comprehensive component
NMHC catalyst
NOx aftertreatment
Boost pressure system
Exhaust gas sensor
PM filter
EGR an/or VVT system

These are the monitors that must be closed (or complete) to be ready for a smog check in California. For 2014 and earlier models (I stumbled on the date when searching for more information), 2 of these monitors can be open (or incomplete). 2015 and newer must have all monitors closed/complete. And again, this is for California. Other jurisdictions can be different.

[break for some more searching]

And a bit more searching turned up that these 9 monitors are common to all diesel vehicles with an OBDII system.

Here's a another explanation of OBDII readiness monitors:
https://www.obdautodoctor.com/scantool-garage/obd-readiness-monitors-explained




I'm sure it's useful for programming. But what I'm trying to help explain is what the law (or regulations) in California require. Learning a programming language is not going to help to explain or understand the law.
You see, you looked on your scanner, but I don't think you completely comprehend what you looked at.

"PM Filter" stands for "Particulate Matter Filter" or in other terminology is called DPF (Diesel Particulate Filter" and on gas engines is called GPF (Gas Particulate Filter) that is implemented in EU as part of Euro 6 emission standards. The Euro 6 emission standards will come to US eventually and I'm pretty sure that California will be the fist state to adapt them.

You have to understand, there is no sensor anywhere in the exhaust system that can detect or determine how much soot the engine puts out. It is not like Lambda system, where an oxygen sensor is used to detect and read the oxygen level in the exhaust gases, or like DEF system where a NOx sensor can measure the amount of nitrogen present in the exhaust gases. The computer (ECU) of the vehicle does not know how much soot is put out by the engine. The only thing that the ECU knows is the pressure difference between pre-DPF and post-DPF, that is all. To completely close the monitor of the "PM Filter" a regeneration is needed or required. Also, the monitoring of the exhaust temperature sensors is very important. Without them being in the specified range, no regeneration of the "PM Filter" is possible.

So... I have this impression that we speak at different levels, maybe that is why you can't understand what I'm saying. I don't rely on publications or laws, but I try to understand the technology and its function and also what the state is looking for when requires a smog test.

The "PM Filter" is the DPF... Keep that in mind...
 

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