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Old 07-16-2019, 03:03 PM   #21
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Default Re: Another won't start thread !

Quote:
Originally Posted by owner View Post
Make sure you know that you can actually die if any body part gets hit by fuel at rail pressure. Even from a cracked rail line, but especially an exposed injector tip. This is true of any CDI diesel. Much much more dangerous than the old skool mechanical injection.

Having said that, you can do that test if you take precautions and keep well clear of the spray. Put the ignition key in your pocket, bolt the fuel line to the injector and connect it, then dont let anyone go near it while you crank.

Definitely a good reminder and very important not to screw up.
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Old 07-16-2019, 03:29 PM   #22
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Default Re: Another won't start thread !

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Originally Posted by The Grand Tour View Post
...

So now it's time for the second step- determining the Cause of your Complaint. For the reasons I stated above, it's important to follow a logical progression of diagnosis, instead of just guessing.

My recommendation, as I stated previously, is to find out if the engine is even capable of running, before you go spending any other money on it or wasting any more time fooling around with any of the peripheral subsystems. If fuel is being delivered, I would recommend determining the sealing ability of the engine, by running a compression test and/or by performing a leak-down test.


Not all of the replies by others are guessing. They are suggesting things which historically should be tested. Determining Cause as you refer to the step is often a process of elimination. Things can be eliminated or narrowed down by testing. No different than you suggesting that compression should be tested.

Carry on.

vic
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Old 07-16-2019, 06:26 PM   #23
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Default Re: Another won't start thread !

Vic, knowing some of the common areas of concern on a particular vehicle can be helpful information to someone who is already firmly grounded in diagnostic principles, but trying to teach someone all the backyard short-cuts before they even learn the basics, is just asking for problems.

I have not recommended ANY repairs.

I recommended that IF it is delivering fuel, that the next logical step would be to determine whether the engine is actually capable of running. This is sound diagnostic logic. If it were a gasoline engine we'd be checking for fuel and spark before doing a compression test, but since a diesel ignites using it's own compression, fuel delivery is the only area to check before moving on to determining the engine's integrity.

I am born and raised in the vehicle repair industry, and have had a long (and more importantly, successful) career in vehicle repair. Countless times during my career, I have had to unscrew things that have been screwed up by others. I've seen some real heartache and financial hardship, a lot of which was completely unnecessary, if they had simply stuck to the fundamentals. Back when we had carburetors, I have seen many perfectly good carburetors rebuilt and/or replaced, when the real problem was a flat cam or a burned valve. When OBD-II became part of our life, I saw many perfectly good EGR valves, EGR position sensors, MAP sensors, and so on get replaced, when the real problem was a plugged catalytic converter. And more recently, I have seen perfectly good ignition modules and cam position sensors get replaced, when the cam drive had failed and the cam wasn't even turning.

And if the vehicle owner thinks an engine job is expensive, wait until they pay some hack to replace a bunch of expensive peripherals that never needed to be replaced in the first place, just to find out that now they have to pay for an engine too. In the vehicle repair profession, we have a moral and ethical responsibility to be good stewards of the vehicle owner's trust regarding their financial resources.

Last edited by The Grand Tour; 07-16-2019 at 06:28 PM.
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Old 07-16-2019, 07:38 PM   #24
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Default Re: Another won't start thread !

Regarding starting fluid sprayed in the air intake: that basically tells you almost NOTHING about the engine's willingness to run.

This is a diesel .... unlike spark-plug engines, it's only the compression that's heating the fuel to ignition.
Give it a squirt, and as long as even only one cylinder has reasonable compression it'll sound like it's willing to run.
With a spark plug (i.e. "conventional ignition") engine, the starting fluid *would* be telling you that the spark system is working.

95% of the diesel system is the pumping and metering of fuel into the cylinders. and starting fluid doesn't test that.

--dick (i'm not saying: "don't ever squirt!", but i am saying: "don't read too much from it")
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Old 07-16-2019, 07:47 PM   #25
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Default Re: Another won't start thread !

Quote:
Originally Posted by The Grand Tour View Post
Vic, knowing some of the common areas of concern on a particular vehicle can be helpful information to someone who is already firmly grounded in diagnostic principles, but trying to teach someone all the backyard short-cuts before they even learn the basics, is just asking for problems.

I have not recommended ANY repairs.

I recommended that IF it is delivering fuel, that the next logical step would be to determine whether the engine is actually capable of running. This is sound diagnostic logic. If it were a gasoline engine we'd be checking for fuel and spark before doing a compression test, but since a diesel ignites using it's own compression, fuel delivery is the only area to check before moving on to determining the engine's integrity.

I am born and raised in the vehicle repair industry, and have had a long (and more importantly, successful) career in vehicle repair. Countless times during my career, I have had to unscrew things that have been screwed up by others. I've seen some real heartache and financial hardship, a lot of which was completely unnecessary, if they had simply stuck to the fundamentals. Back when we had carburetors, I have seen many perfectly good carburetors rebuilt and/or replaced, when the real problem was a flat cam or a burned valve. When OBD-II became part of our life, I saw many perfectly good EGR valves, EGR position sensors, MAP sensors, and so on get replaced, when the real problem was a plugged catalytic converter. And more recently, I have seen perfectly good ignition modules and cam position sensors get replaced, when the cam drive had failed and the cam wasn't even turning.

And if the vehicle owner thinks an engine job is expensive, wait until they pay some hack to replace a bunch of expensive peripherals that never needed to be replaced in the first place, just to find out that now they have to pay for an engine too. In the vehicle repair profession, we have a moral and ethical responsibility to be good stewards of the vehicle owner's trust regarding their financial resources.
Excellent contribution I enjoyed.
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Old 07-16-2019, 07:49 PM   #26
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Default Re: Another won't start thread !

Quote:
Originally Posted by autostaretx View Post
Regarding starting fluid sprayed in the air intake: that basically tells you almost NOTHING about the engine's willingness to run.

This is a diesel .... unlike spark-plug engines, it's only the compression that's heating the fuel to ignition.
Give it a squirt, and as long as even only one cylinder has reasonable compression it'll sound like it's willing to run.
With a spark plug (i.e. "conventional ignition") engine, the starting fluid *would* be telling you that the spark system is working.

95% of the diesel system is the pumping and metering of fuel into the cylinders. and starting fluid doesn't test that.

--dick (i'm not saying: "don't ever squirt!", but i am saying: "don't read too much from it")
And another informative contribution.
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Old 07-16-2019, 08:48 PM   #27
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Default Re: Another won't start thread !

Quote:
Originally Posted by Convincent View Post

After clearing the following returned: P0087, P0672, P0671, P0380

Tac does bounce up to about 200ish when cranking the engine.
Code P0087 relates to fuel pressure not being within the envelope required by the ECU.
Codes P0671/P0672 and P0380 all relate to glow plug issues.

The fact that you have life in your tac while cranking does give hope to the injectors getting a firing pulse, but not guaranteed.

If your glow plugs are not functioning, it will not aid starting, particularly if temps are very low. Likewise, it will not start if fuel pressures are either low or too high, the ecu will normally shut down injection pulses for out of spec fuel pressure.

To get a common rail diesel to start, you need the fuel supplied (this assumes you are getting injection) to be reasonably warm (glow plugs see to this if ambient temp is cold), you need a decent static compression (base condition of cylinders) and then you need a good cranking speed to generate a good dynamic compression ( I usually look for +250rpm).

Your post about using "quick start" fluid and it trying to fire (without actually firing) is not promising. Tends to suggest that you have compression issues....

The advice given about testing compression is the first thing I would check (if your cranking speed is good). If compressions are good, then move onto determining what fuel pressure is being supplied to the injectors.

My advice is to do one step at a time, eliminate potential problems in a logical order or you will chase your tail around and end up having a spares spending fest...!!!
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Old 07-16-2019, 08:58 PM   #28
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Default Re: Another won't start thread !

Quote:
Originally Posted by wcnz View Post
Code P0087 relates to fuel pressure not being within the envelope required by the ECU.
Codes P0671/P0672 and P0380 all relate to glow plug issues.

The fact that you have life in your tac while cranking does give hope to the injectors getting a firing pulse, but not guaranteed.

If your glow plugs are not functioning, it will not aid starting, particularly if temps are very low. Likewise, it will not start if fuel pressures are either low or too high, the ecu will normally shut down injection pulses for out of spec fuel pressure.

To get a common rail diesel to start, you need the fuel supplied (this assumes you are getting injection) to be reasonably warm (glow plugs see to this if ambient temp is cold), you need a decent static compression (base condition of cylinders) and then you need a good cranking speed to generate a good dynamic compression ( I usually look for +250rpm).

Your post about using "quick start" fluid and it trying to fire (without actually firing) is not promising. Tends to suggest that you have compression issues....

The advice given about testing compression is the first thing I would check (if your cranking speed is good). If compressions are good, then move onto determining what fuel pressure is being supplied to the injectors.

My advice is to do one step at a time, eliminate potential problems in a logical order or you will chase your tail around and end up having a spares spending fest...!!!
Wow, you sound pretty sharp. Do you do this for a living?
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Old 07-17-2019, 12:30 AM   #29
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Default Re: Another won't start thread !

Retired, over 50 years of being a petrol head (still am)... now just trying to keep up with the latest electrickery built into modern vehicles (baffling for the most part) and helping out mates/family/others now.
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Old 07-17-2019, 02:57 AM   #30
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Default Re: Another won't start thread !

Quote:
Originally Posted by The Grand Tour View Post
Vic, knowing some of the common areas of concern on a particular vehicle can be helpful information to someone who is already firmly grounded in diagnostic principles, but trying to teach someone all the backyard short-cuts before they even learn the basics, is just asking for problems.

I have not recommended ANY repairs.

I recommended that IF it is delivering fuel, that the next logical step would be to determine whether the engine is actually capable of running. This is sound diagnostic logic. If it were a gasoline engine we'd be checking for fuel and spark before doing a compression test, but since a diesel ignites using it's own compression, fuel delivery is the only area to check before moving on to determining the engine's integrity.

I am born and raised in the vehicle repair industry, and have had a long (and more importantly, successful) career in vehicle repair. Countless times during my career, I have had to unscrew things that have been screwed up by others. I've seen some real heartache and financial hardship, a lot of which was completely unnecessary, if they had simply stuck to the fundamentals. Back when we had carburetors, I have seen many perfectly good carburetors rebuilt and/or replaced, when the real problem was a flat cam or a burned valve. When OBD-II became part of our life, I saw many perfectly good EGR valves, EGR position sensors, MAP sensors, and so on get replaced, when the real problem was a plugged catalytic converter. And more recently, I have seen perfectly good ignition modules and cam position sensors get replaced, when the cam drive had failed and the cam wasn't even turning.

And if the vehicle owner thinks an engine job is expensive, wait until they pay some hack to replace a bunch of expensive peripherals that never needed to be replaced in the first place, just to find out that now they have to pay for an engine too. In the vehicle repair profession, we have a moral and ethical responsibility to be good stewards of the vehicle owner's trust regarding their financial resources.
Surprisingly this forum has been helping people fix their Sprinters for quite some time using a friendly non professional approach. The path to success isn't always a straight line. It is a forum.

The forum ain't perfect, but it has been basically cordial.

vic
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