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Old 09-14-2015, 06:32 AM   #1
Aqua Puttana
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Default mehr4x4 Eric No Start/No Crank Temporary Solution

mehr4x4 Eric No Start Temporary Solution

Eric mehr4x4 has a rather ingenious jumper circuit which may help as a work around for no crank/no start.

I'll begin by posting some quotes from another thread.

It should be noted that Eric's jumper method does not provide the power off delay for orderly shutdown of the ECM which is normally accomplished via the Engine Relay (M) circuit and possibly (probably?) the Timer module in the FB #1.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mehr4x4 View Post
aaronschof, Sorry that I didn't get back to you earlier. Been quite busy. I'm actually on a computer instead of my phone so let me see if I can get this to work. There are several ways to confirm what is going on here. I'm not sure how much of this is exact for yours not being from the state's such as mine but I'll try to help.

When I have no power going to the engine ECU, or they call it the engine control module but we will call it the ECU for reference sake, the following will happen;
When I turn the key to the on position the engine electric cooling fan will come on, all the dash lights momentarily will come on but the "water in the fuel", "glow plugs", and "Oil" lights stay on and don't go out (Pic "No power"). Turning the key to the start position causes NOTHING to happen, no click, nothing.

I understand that your van may or may not have the same electronic engine cooling fan so i don't know if this applies but it is a symptom for mine.

When I have power and everything is working correctly the following happens;
When I turn the key to the on position the engine electronic cooling fan will not run, all the dash lights momentarily will come on and only the normal lights remain on such as the "battery", "ESP", and "Traction" lights (Pic "Power"). Ignore the check engine light, it's a glow plug module and unrelated to this problem. And when I try to start the engine it will click on the relays and start the engine.

If it were fuel pressure, or starter relays, or starter motors, or SKREEM problems you would have other symptoms. The first 3 listed above WILL give at least a click of some sort and the lights would be normal.

One "easy" way to confirm this is the problem is to remove the center relay (in Pic "Fuse Box1") and jump the two larger contacts with a made up wire. Use two "male" spade connectors (Pic "Connectors") with a wire and push them into the two larger slots (lower part of Pic "Drawing" ) This will energize the ECU and the van should start with the key. Shut the engine off. Don't leave the jumper in there as it will power the ECU all the time even with the key off. Just use this to confirm this is the problem.

If the above works then do the following until you and I can find a permanent solution;
I used a combination of male and female connectors to make jumper wires and fuse sockets to power up the 2 fuses for the ECU. I found some fancy combination male AND female crimp connector that had both spades on the same crimp. Sorry but I don't have a picture of that. You can just use a larger yellow spade connector and push 2 wires into the same connector, that will work to. (Pic "Connectors") I pulled fuse 6, 16,and 17 out. Make up 3 short wires, about 4" long with a Mc (male connector) and Fc (female connector). Then cut 3 more 4" long wires and crimp as shown in lower (Pic "Drawing") Push the Mc into the right side of fuse socket 6 and connect the first Fc to pulled fuse 6, then the next Fc to pulled fuse 16, then the last Fc to pulled fuse 17. Now take the first 3 made jumper wires and push the first Mc into the left side of fuse socket 6 and connect the Fc to the empty side of pulled fuse 6. Second jumper goes into the right side of socket 16 to pulled fuse 16 and then the last one goes into the right side of 17 to the pulled fuse of 17.

Now turn the key on and see if everything seems correct with dash lights and try to start it. I bet (virtual) money that it will start!

I hope this makes sense. If not please feel free to ask questions on what I did.
Eric
EricPics
01EricConnectors.jpg

02EricDrawing.jpg

03EricFuse box1.jpg

04EricNo power.jpg

05EricPower (1).jpg

If you have a no crank situation it is worthwhile to note which dash icons remain lit after the dash warning illumination check cycle. On older T1N models (NAS aka NAFTA 2001 - 2003 OM612 engine) the dash will look similar to above. On NAS aka NAFTA 2004 - 2006 OM647 engine models the only odd dash light remaining lit may be the oil can with drip. Installing the jumpers should help in that situation.
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Last edited by Aqua Puttana; 09-18-2015 at 02:18 AM.
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Old 09-14-2015, 06:41 AM   #2
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Default Re: mehr4x4 Eric No Start Temporary Solution

Quote:
Originally Posted by Aqua Puttana View Post
Great news.


I agree that the FB #1 Fuse Block #1 does have some history of connection/conduction issues which may be the cause of a no start problem.

One caution is that even if Eric's Mehr4x4 jumper circuit allows enables starting, that of itself doesn't point directly to the FB #1 proper as the problem. The jumper solution provides power to many places so problems unrelated to the FB #1 cannot be discounted. That said, at around 100 bucks for the new part and relatively easy DIY replacement, replacing the FB #1 certainly makes sense.

One note about the dash light icons.

The Low Fuel Pressure icon is only included on NAS aka NAFTA 2001 - 2003 Sprinters with OM612 engines. The 2004 - 2006 OM647 engine models will only leave the oil level (Oil Can with drip) illuminated after lamp check. There is no Low Fuel Pressure indicator with the OM647 engine.

Eric,
Great solution!
Have you put together a diagram of what the jumpers actually connect? If not, I plan to dig through and try to document the circuit. Does this work to by-pass "Start Error" no start problems?

vic

Added.

Position #6 20 amp is Windshield wiper so it is just a switched 12 v power source.

Position #16 25 amp ECU aka ECM power

Position #17 15 amp ECU aka ECM power

The 1/4" male to male short jumper connects the Engine Relay Pin 30 to Pin 87 (N.O. contacts)


06Eric013FuseArrangementBlock1pic.jpg

The FB #1 is not just a simple fuse block with a buss to supply power to the lines of fuses. It is a module in the truest sense. The fuse positions Eric uses are not powered all the time. Those positions are fed controlled/conditional 12 volts.

One caution in using the jumper solution. There is a delay in power down of the ECM aka ECU main computer to save settings, etc. If the power to that is removed too quickly it may affect operation such as the ability to store DTC's for troubleshooting reference.

I haven't studied the schematics. I suspect that leaving the Engine Relay Pin #30 to Pin #87 may provide constant power to the ECM aka ECU even when the engine is shut down. This probably not a good thing over time. A SPST switch can be installed in the jumper to allow manual power down of the ECM. I recommend waiting about 10 seconds after the key is turned off before switching of the SPST switch. That will allow the ECM to power down normally and save data. Actually, if the diagram is correct, Eric's jumper for the Engine Relay may not even be necessary. The Engine Relay can just be left in place.
The Engine Relay is shown in this schematic. It helps to show what Eric accomplishes with his fuses and jumper.

10-276ECM.JPG

Note:

Fuse #16 and Fuse #17 are powered by the Engine Control Relay (M).

Fuse #16 powers the ECM.

Fuse #17 powers the ECM C2-Pin #1, O2 Sensor, EGR, Boost Pressure Servo Motor, Starter Relay (coil), and the Fuel/Lift Pump Relay (coil). Any 12v control of those components by the ECM is accomplished on the negative (ground) side of the circuit. (As an aside, I question whether the starter is fed from the ignition switch as indicated on this diagram. The B+ note for the Fuel Pump and the starter note may have been incorrectly swapped.)

This diagram shows only one control line from the ECM to the FB #1 module. The diagram further down in this thread shows additional ECM control lines to a Run-Start (Pin #19 ) and Start (Pin #36 ) box.

The Engine Relay, Fuse #16, and Fuse #17 are shown within the Fuse Block #1 FB #1 dotted outline. Note also that it includes a "Wiper/TurnSig/Engine Start Module" within the dotted box.

The Engine Relay is shown as switched to ground. Likely that switch to ground is accomplished via the ground shown on the "Wiper/TurnSig/Engine Start Module". If correct, that means that the FB #1 ground is critical to the engine starting. Perhaps we have been chasing the wrong grounds by concentrating on the ones near the battery?

Question:
Is the ECM power off delay controlled by the FB #1 Timer Module? I ass-u-me'd that the FB #1 Timer Module referred to just the wiper delay and maybe turnsignal/emergency flashers. It may do more. Again it looks like the FB #1 IS a control module in the truest sense and not just a fuse block.

Some additional information.


213CommonPointFaultDiagnosisNote1.jpg

217CommonPointFaultDiagnosis.jpg

Note that Run/Start and Start blocks are shown in Fuse Block #1 in this diagram.

227CommonPointFaultDiagnosisNote1.jpg

At this point I have some questions about the accuracy of the schematics because there seems to be some small discrepancies. I posted what I have so far to get the information in one place.

vic
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16 ounces of unnecessary prevention can be worth a pound of manure.

Last edited by Aqua Puttana; 09-26-2017 at 03:54 PM.
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Old 09-17-2015, 07:19 PM   #3
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Default Re: mehr4x4 Eric No Start Temporary Solution

Thank you for posting this. I am suspicious of the turn signal module but couldn't for the life of me figure out why they would run "starting" stuff through there. My van is still running fine but would like to find a "correct" solution for this problem as I'm sure other people will to. I haven't had time to work on it anymore.
Again, thank you,
Eric
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Old 09-18-2015, 02:35 AM   #4
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Default Re: mehr4x4 Eric No Start Temporary Solution

Quote:
Originally Posted by mehr4x4 View Post
... I haven't had time to work on it anymore.
Again, thank you,
Eric
I haven't had time to research/verify much more lately either.

I did put together a set of your fuse jumpers to keep with my spare parts.

3/16" male slide connectors may be the better choice rather than 1/4". The thicker 1/4" tabs may spread the OEM fuse block contacts a bit.

I used waterproof fuse holders which I've picked up at flea markets at good price. The fuse holders with attached leads made putting the jumper set together pretty easy. Less connectors needed.

FuseHolder.jpg

Amazon has a set of 10 ea. at good price.

http://www.amazon.com/Install-Bay-AT...ds=fuse+holder

I used Brady Wire numbers to label the connectors as to fuse positions.

****************
Having a set of your jumpers on board at least gives me something to try in case of an odd dash lights no crank situation. Very cheap insurance.

vic
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Last edited by Aqua Puttana; 09-26-2017 at 03:57 PM.
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Old 03-23-2016, 08:12 AM   #5
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Default Re: mehr4x4 Eric No Start Temporary Solution

Thanks, Eric and Vic. Good info as I work my way through my own van's "Not starting, Fan running" challenge. The ground comments by Vic made me go "Aaahh!"...

A couple suggestions:

- This thread might need a name that distinguishes it more from the "No Start" condition caused by bad keys.

- Eric's jumper diagram needs correct fuse socket numbering (the photo he included is a better reference).

- Using some brands of terminal blades on your jumper may stretch out the fuse block's brass "teeth". Only a problem if you plan to reinstall fuses later (they may fit a little loosely).
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Old 04-16-2016, 10:20 PM   #6
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Default Re: mehr4x4 Eric No Start/No Crank Temporary Solution

When the key is turned to Run position, Fuse 18 sends B+ power to the ECM, which signals the Engine Control Relay to turn on Fuse 16 and 17, so check Fuse 18 first.
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Old 11-28-2018, 03:59 PM   #7
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Default Re: mehr4x4 Eric No Start/No Crank Temporary Solution

I am still looking for solution to get rid of "no crank, no start, fan running".
I have a new fuse box under steering column. I had this events with the old and new fuse box. Old and new battery, same story. Portable jump start battery also new, jumping-no help. But cable jump from another vehicle with some RPM-starts every time.
So one day I had no help, and this happened again. If you are in similar situation, don't call for towing yet.

I removed center relay under steering wheel and managed to open it. This relay is normally in closed position. I wedged tiny piece of Scotch tape between relay contacts and install it back to fuse box. It started without any symptoms beside CEL light "water in filter". You may have also this or another CEL light, but at least, it will get you to drive. Just remove this relay again, when you park your van. It will be light buzzing under the hood when is not removed.

How silly is that tiny piece of tape will let my van run.
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Old 11-28-2018, 04:44 PM   #8
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Default Re: mehr4x4 Eric No Start/No Crank Temporary Solution

Thanks for the info.

The tape is wedging/holding the relay in the closed (energized) position, or the tape is over/between the NC Normally Contacts and acting as an insulator for that NC set of contacts?

T1NrelayTape.jpg

vic


Answer with pic saved to Sprinter-source.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Oilburner View Post
The tape will hold relay in open position. If you break this open position in less than 1 minute by removing tape, it will shut down engine. To not mess with relay, I have 2 wires connected to 2 legs of the relay and switch to disrupt connection between relay contacts. So relay stays in and I have extra switch to play with. Drive like this more than 2 weeks.
T1NrelayTape02.jpg
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"My opinion and worth everything you'll never pay for it." assumed.
Anyone can hold the helm when the sea is calm. Publilius Syrus
"There are only 10 types of people in the world: Those who understand binary, and those who don't." HaWiiLuVeR
16 ounces of unnecessary prevention can be worth a pound of manure.

Last edited by Aqua Puttana; 11-29-2018 at 01:14 AM.
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Old 11-28-2018, 08:07 PM   #9
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Default Re: mehr4x4 Eric No Start/No Crank Temporary Solution

The tape will hold relay in open position. If you break this open position in less than 1 minute by removing tape, it will shut down engine. To not mess with relay, I have 2 wires connected to 2 legs of the relay and switch to disrupt connection between relay contacts. So relay stays in and I have extra switch to play with. Drive like this more than 2 weeks.
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