Hardwire a permanent extension cord to inverter

rollerbearing

Well-known member
I agree a second ATS would work as well. A little more expensive. And potentially a little bit more complicated to troubleshoot if one or the other ATS acts up (vs an easily understood and observable switch). I did see that KISAE had a 20 amp ATS listed on Amazon that is essentially the same as the Xantrex unit posted earlier (just a bit higher ampacity - but still not enough to handle the full 30 amp shore power rating).
 
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220629

Well-known member
... I did see that KISAE had a 20 amp ATS listed on Amazon that is essentially the same as the Xantrex unit posted earlier (just a bit higher ampacity - but still not enough to handle the full 30 amp shore power rating).
As a practical matter.

Many van conversion owners think that they need 30 amp service. Many don't actually "need" 30 amps.

If there is no HVAC cooling load (or other heavy load for a critical appliance) supplied by the shore power, the RV panel main breaker could be changed out to 20 amp main breaker. Once reduced down to a 20 amp main breaker all of the 30 amp shore power concerns go away.

The above said. If the RV under discussion is a commercial conversion unit chances are good that it has a roof type air conditioner.

:2cents: vic
 

autostaretx

Erratic Member
Here is the BlueSea number 9009 30 amp switch ($130): https://www.bluesea.com/products/9009/AC_Rotary_Switch_-_OFF_+_2_Positions_120V_AC_30A

Here is an extraction from another member's (billbk) wiring diagram, with the switch shown doing the transfer between shore power and inverter-sourced:

BillBkNewCorner2.jpg

(please excuse the flat-out-confusing switch diagram, it's presented the way the bolts on the back want the wires)
The thread that came from was active back in Sept 2018.

--dick
 
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BASE957

New member
Alright folks, I went out to the sprinter tonight and shifted a few things around to make room for a second ATS (tight squeeze but everyone will be happy). I ordered a second ats same as what I currently have to switch between shore/gen: progressive dynamics pd5100. My wife had a $50 gift card to amazon so i picked it up for around $25. :thumbup:

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0039T0518/ref=ox_sc_act_title_1?smid=ATVPDKIKX0DER&psc=1

If anyone has a diagram of how to wire this second unit to switch between ATS #1 and inverter I'd be forever grateful.

Thank you all who have commented and helped out with suggestions/ideas so far. This is a great resource.
 

rollerbearing

Well-known member
You are going to wire this upstream of you existing ATS.

Take lots of photos before, during, and after - then you can go backwards if needed.

Disconnect the shore power from your existing(old) ATS and place those connections on the new ATS in exactly the same spots.

Following the PD manual connect the inverter extension cord stub to the "generator" connections on the new ATS per the PD manual.

Connect the output of the new ATS to where the shore power connections originally were on the old ATS.

You won't be doing anything to the original generator connections on the old ATS, or the ouput connections of the old ATS.

Be sure and carry the shore power ground all the way through both ATS.
 
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rollerbearing

Well-known member
It should now behave like this - shore power goes through. If inverter power is turned on, shore power is disconnected. If generator power is turned on then, depending on which one is active, shore power will be disconnected or inverter power will be disconnected (the output of the "new" ATS will be disconnected).

There will be no more "Death Prod" or inverter back feed.

And best of all you don't need to remember to do anything! Except to limit your loads and that has the safety backup of the fusing on the inverter (you do have fusing on it?) and if you want to charge the battery with the generator you will need to remember to turn on the converter again.
 
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elemental

Wherever you go, there you are.
I can be dense at times, but I absolutely hate suicide plugs. There was an annual church carnival that I started helping with electrical. After I worked to eliminate all of the suicide plugs they had in the "system" I returned to find that a well meaning church member had chopped cords and wire to add suicide back into the mix. I corrected the "modifications" and backed away.
You won't find any specification for an exposed, energized connector in the National Electrical Code, National Equipment Manufacturer's Association standards, or any other electrical system standard. It is roughly equivalent to leaving bare, exposed wires in the middle of an energized circuit; an accident waiting to happen. Electrical systems should fail safe, and that configuration does not fail safe. I'll get off my soapbox now I guess...
 

220629

Well-known member
You won't find any specification for an exposed, energized connector in the National Electrical Code, National Equipment Manufacturer's Association standards, or any other electrical system standard. It is roughly equivalent to leaving bare, exposed wires in the middle of an energized circuit; an accident waiting to happen. Electrical systems should fail safe, and that configuration does not fail safe. I'll get off my soapbox now I guess...
Not to pick nits, but there definitely are NEC standards for exposed energized conductors in distribution substations.

I do agree that there are not any NEC rules that allow exposed current carrying conductors for residential type wiring methods and particularly cord connected equipment.

:cheers: vic
 

autostaretx

Erratic Member
BASE957? Please draw a diagram of what you've got and what you're proposing with the ATS units (which are relays).

Similar to Robert-NE's (which is simple (NO=normally open, NC=normally closed (switch contacts, also applies to relays))
or as complete and complex as you wish.

Just to ensure that we're all on the same page.

--dick
 

BASE957

New member
You are going to wire this upstream of you existing ATS.

Take lots of photos before, during, and after - then you can go backwards if needed.

Disconnect the shore power from your existing(old) ATS and place those connections on the new ATS in exactly the same spots.

Following the PD manual connect the inverter extension cord stub to the "generator" connections on the new ATS per the PD manual.

Connect the output of the new ATS to where the shore power connections originally were on the old ATS.

You won't be doing anything to the original generator connections on the old ATS, or the ouput connections of the old ATS.

Be sure and carry the shore power ground all the way through both ATS.

I'm going to follow rollerbearing's suggestion. It's basically what I was after from the beginning. Switching between three sources. I didn't think I could squeeze another ATS in my only "electrical/plumbing" area but I figured it out. Got a 2nd ATS coming in the mail and will wire it as described above. Seems like it will accomplish my end goal. If you read about a Sprinter camper van blowing up or you happen to see a white 2005 Vista Cruiser rolling down the highway with flames coming out the windows then my wiring job was not a success :laughing:

Hopefully if someone else comes up with a "black death-hot plug" idea similar to mine they will stumble across this thread and think twice. I posted because I know there are folks out there with LOTS more experience than myself.
 

elemental

Wherever you go, there you are.
Not to pick nits, but there definitely are NEC standards for exposed energized conductors in distribution substations.

I do agree that there are not any NEC rules that allow exposed current carrying conductors for residential type wiring methods and particularly cord connected equipment.

:cheers: vic
I stand corrected - my apologies. I was thinking too narrowly/spoke too broadly.
 

220629

Well-known member
I stand corrected - my apologies. I was thinking too narrowly/spoke too broadly.
:idunno:
No big deal. I probably should have just let it stay on topic with the safety issues which you pointed out.

At least it appears that a better solution is now being considered vs what could have be installed.

Carry on.
 

Geriakt

2017 View 24J
I have a 2017 Winnebago View and the OEM is set up is the 30 amp shore power male plug cord is connected to the 110-120 VAC breaker box. The 30 amp 3600 watt generator is connected to a 30 female plug in a outlet box. You either plug the shore power plug into the RV park electrical box or into the generator outlet located in the shore power cord storage box. It is a human powered ATS. The OEM 1000 watt Xantrex inverter is connected to a few 110 outlets in the RV which also connect to the breaker box.
I have since changed this with the installation of a Victron Multiplus 24/3000 inverter/charger. Now the incoming shore power connected directly to AC input on the inverter and the AC1 out runs to the 30 amp breaker at the breaker box power station. Now all my outlets are powered by the inverter. When I want to use my generator I plug the shore power cord into the generator female outlet.
 

BASE957

New member
@Geriakt: this is similar to what I want to accomplish. Run my Entire AC side from inverter not just an outlet or two (or an extension cord plugged into front of inverter). I don’t have a “built in” shore power cord so I was trying to come up with a way to wire in a “permanent shore power” cord. Consensus was to add a manual switch or install another ATS. I’m going to shoot for the 2nd ATS and hope it works out!!
 

rollerbearing

Well-known member
When your wiring is done and BEFORE you plug the new extension cord into the inverter it would be best if you check that there is never any power applied to the cord by the other sources.

To do this safely so that you aren't holding meter probes etc to an accidentally live male plug I suggest you do the following:

1) Get a multi outlet power strip.

2) Plug the power strip into the wall and plug a lamp into the power strip

3) Make sure the lamp is on

4) UNPLUG THE POWER STRIP FROM THE WALL!!!!!!

5) Tape up the power strip plug very well with electrical tape.

Now you have your tester. Plug the new inverter extension cord into this power strip (with the lamp still plugged in and ON). Cycle through all the combinations of shore power and generator power that you can come up with. Make sure that the light never is turned on - even for the briefest of flashes.
 
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Geriakt

2017 View 24J
@Geriakt: this is similar to what I want to accomplish. Run my Entire AC side from inverter not just an outlet or two (or an extension cord plugged into front of inverter). I don’t have a “built in” shore power cord so I was trying to come up with a way to wire in a “permanent shore power” cord. Consensus was to add a manual switch or install another ATS. I’m going to shoot for the 2nd ATS and hope it works out!!
My Multiplus 24/3000 inverter has its own built in transfer switch so there is never a back feed to the plug. When the 30 amp male plug on a 20 ft extension cord is not connected to shore power it is then plugged into the house generator female plug and all I have to do is fire up the generator.
Yes if your inverter does not have a automatic transfer switch you may have to be careful about back feed.
 

BASE957

New member
Just a followup to this thread in case someone comes along in the future searching for a similar situation. I purchased another Progressive Dynamics ATS and followed rollerbearing's wiring instructions. I have it set up so switching between the three sources (shore/gen/inverter) is a snap!! I tested the inverter male plug for any back feed while running shore and gen and so far I get nothing. I spent last weekend boondocking and fired up the microwave twice, watched three DVDs, had the frig running for 48 hours straight, and had the furnace running on/off all weekend (blower motor runs off DC). There was never any sun due to rain so I did have to turn gen on briefly on the last day to run the MW.

So moral of this story is, don't try some crazy idea like I had because it's a faster/easy/cheaper way to get it done. Safety should be #1. Thanks again for everyone's input.
 

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twrooney

Member
Looking for thoughts/opinions on this. Making some changes to my 2005 Vista Cruiser. Ive got my solar panel, charge controller, and 2000w Kisae PSW inverter all hooked up to two 6v Vmaxx 225ah batteries. Everything is working great. To test the inverter I plugged the 30a RV extension cord directly into the inverter and all the 110v outlets, lights, etc. worked great. Basically got "whole house" 110v power. I currently have a factory installed Progressive Dynamics 5000 series ATS that is set up to switch between shore/generator. I NEVER stay in rv parks and use shore power almost never. I use gen only for the roof mounted A/C. However, I would like to keep these in place as they are nice to use when I choose to.

I"m thinking of ways to get rid of the pain-in-the-ass extension cord to power up the entire AC side from batteries. I dont really have room to add a second ATS which I've read can switch from the existing ATS to inverter. What if I cut the female end off a short 30amp extension cord and wired it to hot and neutral wires coming directly from shore power. The connection would be done inside the ATS and the cord would run out of an unused punch out and plug directly into the inverter. Basically think of it as a "permanent extension cord". I fully understand that if/when I use shore or gen I would unplug and turn off inverter so it's out of the equation. I would be acting as a "manual transfer switch". As long as the inverter is shut off the ATS should act normal if I'm using either shore or gen correct? Any risks that you can think of?

I attached a photo showing the ATS with top off. The white/black wires in lower right are directly from the shore power coming from the outside plug. I'd cut the extension cord and wire directly to these. I can ground with the grounding block in the ATS. Stupid idea? Would it work with little risk involved?
My 2013 view profile has a 1000 watt inverter mounted in one of the storage compartments. It only powers a few inconvenient outlets in the motorhome, I wanted to power some other outlets in the galley area for an 800 watt coffee maker and a toaster (never operated at the same time of course). I made up a jumper about 12 inches from 2 old power cords connected together so I have 2 male plugs on it, one plugs into an outlet on the inverter and the other into an outlet in the same compartment intended to power a TV or other 120V unit outside the motorhome. This energizes all the other outlets in the rig from the inverter. I shut off the breaker for these outlets to avoid energizing all the other appliances in the rig like microwave, reefer and converter by backfeeding through the load center. I plan to put an inline fuse in the jumper so the outlets would be protected from short circuits, although the outlet on the inverter must be protected from shorts and doesn't feed back to the load center through the 120V wiring that energizes the circuit to it and the outlets it normally energizes when on shore power or dry camping. It’s probably necessary to unplug the jumper at both ends when on shore power, traveling or otherwise not being used. I just rigged this up yesterday and have not seen any problems or malfunctions testing the setup, anybody know of any potential problems I may have overlooked?
 

marklg

Well-known member
My 2013 view profile has a 1000 watt inverter mounted in one of the storage compartments. It only powers a few inconvenient outlets in the motorhome, I wanted to power some other outlets in the galley area for an 800 watt coffee maker and a toaster (never operated at the same time of course). I made up a jumper about 12 inches from 2 old power cords connected together so I have 2 male plugs on it, one plugs into an outlet on the inverter and the other into an outlet in the same compartment intended to power a TV or other 120V unit outside the motorhome. This energizes all the other outlets in the rig from the inverter. I shut off the breaker for these outlets to avoid energizing all the other appliances in the rig like microwave, reefer and converter by backfeeding through the load center. I plan to put an inline fuse in the jumper so the outlets would be protected from short circuits, although the outlet on the inverter must be protected from shorts and doesn't feed back to the load center through the 120V wiring that energizes the circuit to it and the outlets it normally energizes when on shore power or dry camping. It’s probably necessary to unplug the jumper at both ends when on shore power, traveling or otherwise not being used. I just rigged this up yesterday and have not seen any problems or malfunctions testing the setup, anybody know of any potential problems I may have overlooked?
Luckily you don't have to meet codes. Putting male plugs on both ends and relying on pulling the cord so no backfeed is a big no no. If you did it in your house and had a fire, insurance wouldn't pay. They make automatic RV transfer switches for less than $100 to safely switch between power sources with no accidents.

A fuse will protect wiring, not humans from electrocution and not stop fires from starting before the fuse blows. Please reconsider what you are doing.

Regards,

Mark
 

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