Freezing Temps, lithium batteries

1

14dayweek

New member
I am putting in a Victron energy electrical system in a new build. I live in Canada, the really cold part, -30/-35 isn’t unheard of for long period of time. I park my sprinter at the airport for two weeks every month. I am going to put in a lithium battery but of course don’t want to ruin it. Any ideas on way to mitigate the freezing of the battery. Should I just take it out for the winter?
I also thought maybe a battery blanket around it and plug it in at the airport? Just wondering what others have done to work around cold temps.
 
W

Wrinkledpants

2017 144WB 4x4
Victron batteries can be stored down to -40 C and can discharge down to -20 C. Recharging them is where you need to be above freezing. The BMV 712 has a built-in relay you can use to control the pad heaters. So, storing the battery below freezing is no problem. It's getting it re-warmed to above freezing that can be a challenge. We have a Victron lithium system and keep our van plugged in when not in use (summer and winter). Battery is mounted in the rear of the van in the garage with pad heaters. Typically don't need them if the van stays warm and outside temps are above 10 degrees.
 
2

220629

Well-known member
I can't answer your questions.

I can say that I once ruined a perfectly good lithium laptop battery by bringing the computer in from my cold van, not getting the laptop out of the carry case to allow warm up, and then putting the battery on charge. It is critical to get lithium batteries up to recommended temperatures before putting them on charge.

:cheers: vic
 
W

Wrinkledpants

2017 144WB 4x4
Victron's system is pretty idiot-proof in that the battery won't allow a charge below whatever you set as the temp. 5 degrees C is what it comes set at from the factory, but you can go down to 2 degrees C as the limit. All easily configured and monitored from your phone. Once we rewire our pad heaters to the BMV vs using the AM Solar lithium board, our setup will be pretty bullet-proof.

I'm removing our AM Solar board and swapping out our Battery Protects for bluetooth versions from Victron. That will really simplify things and make management consolidated to our phones.
 
1

14dayweek

New member
Thanks a lot Winklepants This is what I thought I might be able to do but that really helps. Heat pad is the way to go.
 
H

HarryN

Well-known member
Sorry to be so blunt, but, MHO - I think that you are making a huge mistake using a Li based battery of any brand in your application.

For your local weather conditions, a much better choice is a good quality, marine type, AGM based battery bank, ideally wired in a 24 volt configuration.

We build electrical systems for vans using both AGM and Li based battery packs, so it isn't like we don't like Li batteries.

If you go down the path you are on and try to run a diesel heater, it is likely to not start when you need it most. A good quality, 24 volt AGM setup will still fire that heater right up under really terrible conditions.
 
wquek

wquek

Work in progress
We live in Alberta and the van will be parked outside all year. Our plan is to go with a Goal Zero setup and just bring it inside in the winter when we are not using it.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
H

HarryN

Well-known member
Perhaps consider to check the actual battery operating voltage range of a goal zero vs the voltage requirements of a diesel heater or 12 volt refrigerator before you jump in with both feet.
 
vanski

vanski

If it’s winter, I’m probably skiing..
I mostly agree w Harry that in your extreme situation it may be worth going with good old AGMs.

Having said this, I recently installed a Lithium bank for someone who lives in Co (gets cold but not as cold as where you are) with two 12v thermostats like these to operate the battery pads (1 thermostat was to monitor the temps of the battery bank to open the circuit, the other to monitor the temps of the pads and to cycle on/off to prevent spot heating) and then finally, I also used the temp sensor and relay within a Victron BM 712 but this was as a final failsafe to operate a Victron battery protect (these batteries didn’t have an internal cutoff). It was a bit of work and of course the devil is in the details on how the system is wired up to be functional and easy to use.

Message is, lots of ways to skin this cat, but you either be good with developing out these systems or know someone who is..
 
B

BigDC

Active member
I have heard good things about the lifeblue batteries. AM Solar recommends them. I ended up going with Relion low temp, which have similar functionality. The lifeblue website kind of turned me off...
 
D

Donphillipe

Active member
Hi .... I am currently constructing a DIY kit of 280A 4 cell set. I want to incorporate a heater but I don't know what is being used inside the commercial cell cases that incorporate heating units. I'd like to copy a design that seems sound. I have considered low-level heat on pads sandwiched between but I don't know how hot the small panels sold online reach or I don't know if heated air would be a better option.

Has anyone found a DIY group for building heated battery cases?
 
gltrimble

gltrimble

2017 170 4x4
Donphillipe said:
Hi .... I am currently constructing a DIY kit of 280A 4 cell set. I want to incorporate a heater but I don't know what is being used inside the commercial cell cases that incorporate heating units. I'd like to copy a design that seems sound. I have considered low-level heat on pads sandwiched between but I don't know how hot the small panels sold online reach or I don't know if heated air would be a better option.

Has anyone found a DIY group for building heated battery cases?
Click to expand...
Keeping the heating system separate from the battery internals might give you more options and flexibility. It does not take much energy to keep the batteries warm in cold weather if the batteries have some insulation. Heating pads or battery wraps will both work. I have 80 watt battery wraps for each pair of my lithium batteries controlled by Inkbird temperature controllers. The controllers give me the ability to adjust my heating set points. Currently I have them activating at about 40F with a 3 degree band but I can change that on the fly.

15409CCE-E0A3-4B8D-BAC6-E28B2E9411FC.jpeg
 
aksotar

aksotar

2017 4x4 144 Cargo
Unless people live in truly consistent below freezing conditions then they really have no idea in regards to lithiums and real cold for extended times.. they probably have no idea what "plugging in" their vehicle means let alone does...
a few days while skiing, etc is not even close to living in everyday below freezing daily temps...
if you can plug in at airport parking to power a 120ac battery warming wrap (insulating the battery helps big time) then you'll be good, then it would also allow any solar to charge the warm battery too if you have solar... my Sprinter has a circulating block heater, warming pad and trickle charger on the starting battery all plugged into a power strip so I have only 1 120ac plug to plug in and that powers everything... beware of getting too hot warming pads, they could warp the plastic battery case...
I started with non heated Battleborns and learned by dealing with the cold issues, I just switched to a Lithionics self heating battery... I actually had my 12v house battery warming pads powered thru my factory aux battery and that had a 4amp trickle charger wired to it that was perfect for keeping up with the warming blankets DC usage.. the aux battery trickle charger was plugged into the power strip for my block heater, starting battery charger & warmer thus one cord to plug in for everything.. simple solution for people that already have ac block heaters or similar, easy peasy...
 
vanski

vanski

If it’s winter, I’m probably skiing..
aksotar said:
Unless people live in truly consistent below freezing conditions then they really have no idea in regards to lithiums and real cold for extended times.. they probably have no idea what "plugging in" their vehicle means let alone does...
a few days while skiing, etc is not even close to living in everyday below freezing daily temps...
if you can plug in at airport parking to power a 120ac battery warming wrap (insulating the battery helps big time) then you'll be good, then it would also allow any solar to charge the warm battery too if you have solar... my Sprinter has a circulating block heater, warming pad and trickle charger on the starting battery all plugged into a power strip so I have only 1 120ac plug to plug in and that powers everything... beware of getting too hot warming pads, they could warp the plastic battery case...
I started with non heated Battleborns and learned by dealing with the cold issues, I just switched to a Lithionics self heating battery... I actually had my 12v house battery warming pads powered thru my factory aux battery and that had a 4amp trickle charger wired to it that was perfect for keeping up with the warming blankets DC usage.. the aux battery trickle charger was plugged into the power strip for my block heater, starting battery charger & warmer thus one cord to plug in for everything.. simple solution for people that already have ac block heaters or similar, easy peasy...
Click to expand...

AKSotar:

Are your batteries stored outside or inside? If outside, can you outline the insulation you used in addition to the warming pads?
Have you experienced a situation where your warming pads could not keep up with the cold and the battery disconnected charging capabilities? what was the outside ambient temp? How about discharge disconnect when you had the system running? Outside temp?

asking because i have someone with an outside battery tray wanting me to install LifePo4. He lives in California but is a skier and does take trips as far north as lower Canada (Banff as an example). I have done mmmm 15 LifePo4 battery installs, but they all have been inside the vehicle and even then I put thermostatically activatex warming pads on them. Wondering if it is feasible to keep up with temps as low as -30F, perhaps even lower. I have personal experiences with -30F as far south as central Idaho, so obviously the further north the greater the opportunity for even colder temps.

The details of your build to survive extreme cold temps is interesting, especially if the batteries are installed outside.
 
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aksotar

aksotar

2017 4x4 144 Cargo
Mine is in an aluminum box where the spare normally goes, with a floor hatch inside so it gets "some" heat from the interior..... the BBs had 1" poly insulation around them but my Lithionics is taller... I'm using 1/2" of cork for the bottom & sides and a piece of thinsulate on top...
I've been out at -20F and everything was fine, at that temp I am more concerned about my starting battery that isn't insulated or self heating when I'm in a remote spot...
for an outside mount I'd try and surround them with a poly insulation, that will make it easier for a warming pad to work...
 
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