Amazon Electric Vans 100K Rivian

Zundfolge

Always learning...
If only they'd hire a new design team. The R1T truck grills/headlights are ugly af. Rivian must be stoked, and I hope they're able to succeed. Amazon investment is no joke, but wow 2021? That's ambitious, they're only releasing their R1T's and R1S's next year I think? Looks aside (which is hard to do), their specs are actually pretty impressive (400 mile range, 0-60 in 3 secs, etc.) on todays market of gas/diesel powered offerings. Great range and payload/towing capacity. I can't wait for them to become more available/affordable over the years. I love the torque of turbodiesel, it's pretty much all I've ever driven, but the torque of electric motors is a whole 'nother ballpark.

Anyway for now Mobil1 0W-40 European car formula is all I ever feed her. No argument necessary...
 
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marklg

Well-known member
They are great for what they are, but I will bet the 400 mile range is not at 75 MPH with the AC on, outfitted as RVs and Campers are. I will bet it is more like 200-300 miles if driven at highway speeds and outfitted with vents, AC, Solar Panels, etc. Charging will take more than an hour if the battery size ( 180 kWh )and stated charge rate (160 kW / h ).

Our use case of our RV is 800 miles in a day, with two refueling / pee break / driver switch stops of 15 minutes and two pee break / driver switch stops of 10 minutes. The extra pee breaks sometimes get extended. Food is self contained, so we don't stop for that. An EV that requires 3 or 4 hour plus stops for refueling won't work for us, even if the price was similar, which it is not.

Now, what they really need to do is to make a small, light EV that is designed to be charged by towing. That would be a fantastic tow vehicle, as the use case for that is to just tool around the local area wherever the RV is parked. Apparently, manufacturers don't support charging while towing, although some third parties have been able to accomplish it. The range would only need to be less than 100 miles. I'd seriously consider that, if it was not too expensive. Of course, then you can usually only go 65 MPH per posted speed limits for vehicles towing.

Regards,

Mark
 

Cheyenne

UK 2004 T1N 313CDi
Now, what they really need to do is to make a small, light EV that is designed to be charged by towing. T

Apparently, manufacturers don't support charging while towing,

Regards,

Mark
Mark,

We used to regularly tow charge a 2011 Nissan Leaf as part of our testing at work.

You had to engage Drive before you fully flattened the battery, ie after a few hundred yards in 'Turtle' mode the whole car switched off and the only way to bring it back to life was to plug it in.

The only downside to tow charging was the effort required to actually tow the car! Think of trying to tow a car with the emergency/park brake fully on and you won't be far off.

We used to tow with a Land Rover Discovery Diesel and the mpg dropped from around 30 UK mpg down to 10 - 12 UK mpg towing the Leaf. You certainly wouldn't want to tow it far!!!

Keith (retired Hybrid vehicle design and test engineer)
 

marklg

Well-known member
Mark,

We used to regularly tow charge a 2011 Nissan Leaf as part of our testing at work.

You had to engage Drive before you fully flattened the battery, ie after a few hundred yards in 'Turtle' mode the whole car switched off and the only way to bring it back to life was to plug it in.

The only downside to tow charging was the effort required to actually tow the car! Think of trying to tow a car with the emergency/park brake fully on and you won't be far off.

We used to tow with a Land Rover Discovery Diesel and the mpg dropped from around 30 UK mpg down to 10 - 12 UK mpg towing the Leaf. You certainly wouldn't want to tow it far!!!

Keith (retired Hybrid vehicle design and test engineer)
You are probably one of the third parties I'm talking about. They should design them to be tow charged, maybe over 300 miles, with a special low regenerative braking force mode for that. They don't need to be recharged in 50 miles. It will likely be more efficient if the batteries are charged at .25C or so also.

I did a quick calculation.

25 kWh battery
4 hour charge
6.25 kW draw while charging
746 w / hp
that is a little over 8 hp. Assume some inefficiencies and maybe 10 hp.

Is that reasonable?

Regards,

Mark
 
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autostaretx

Erratic Member
I was mentally mulling the numbers for the 180kW battery, and using 1kW per HP as a way of allowing for some losses ...although i expect having the tow doing "regenerative braking" would entail 100% losses (2kWh of tow power to yield 1kWh of charge).

Let's see ... a typical 2nd alternator on a Sprinter is 250 Amps, so that's 250*14v= 3500 W ... 50% of your proposed rate due to towing your 25kWh example. So that would be an 8 hour charge rate, if done simply by wiring the EV to the 2nd alternator.

--dick
 
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marklg

Well-known member
I was mentally mulling the numbers for the 180kW battery, and using 1kW per HP as a way of allowing for some losses ...although i expect having the tow doing "regenerative braking" would entail 100% losses (2kWh of tow power to yield 1kWh of charge).

Let's see ... a typical 2nd alternator on a Sprinter is 250 Amps, so that's 250*14v= 3500 W ... 50% of your proposed rate due to towing your 25kWh example. So that would be an 8 hour charge rate, if done simply by wiring the EV to the 2nd alternator.

--dick
I would hope not for 50% losses if designed right, but I did see the claim from Victron that alternators are about 50% efficient. I have no idea how efficient EV motors are as generators.

8 hours would work for me. Having it automatically charge while being towed would not require an extra alternator or wiring, so it could be done by many more people just by setting up to tow. For many, they would have to pay someone to add an alternator and a charging port. I would assume the charging port would also have to conform to some standard, so some sort of controller would have to be installed besides the alternator.

A Smart Fortwo Electric Drive has a 17.5 kWh battery, and a 58 mile range, so that would be about right. But it is not designed to be charged while towed. Also, it would be an all Mercedes rig!

Regards,

Mark
 
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owner

Oz '03 316CDI LWB ex-Ambo Patient Transport
You could wire the tow car into the brake light circuit so it only charges while braking. So you get free braking and free battery power.
 

220629

Well-known member
...

The only downside to tow charging was the effort required to actually tow the car! Think of trying to tow a car with the emergency/park brake fully on and you won't be far off.

...
Electric vehicle power isn't the somethin' for nothin' that many think that it is. Just the size of the cables at the charging stations should give some clue. Significant power is being supplied by the grid to allow those multiple hundred mile EV ranges.

I recommend 10C mineral oil for your electrical needs.

:2cents: vic
 

marklg

Well-known member
You could wire the tow car into the brake light circuit so it only charges while braking. So you get free braking and free battery power.
I hardly use the brakes, but connecting a brake controller to a towed vehicle is common for safer towing. The brake controller would have to increase the regenerative braking when the main vehicle brakes are on so the towed vehicle doesn't jackknife.

The electric motor appears to not require maintenance, but there could be some nice arguments over cooling and brakes.

Regards,

Mark
 

lockmedic

New member
Tow charging (while possibly convenient for a microscopic number of users) sounds rather inefficient. You're using a fossil fuel powered driveline, operating at 25% thermal efficiency at best, to recharge an electric one but not through a wire but rather tires, axles, and a generator. . . with the combined losses associated with that conversion from mechanical back to electric.

Probably better to just plug the EV into the coach generator as you drive.
 

MobileCC

Member
with all the back orders at the fremont plant for tesla model 3 ..im thinking this change to electric may happen faster than we think...the gas prices will determine how fast this happens i heard also rumors of a battery being charged in 8 mins and the tesla truck battery passing the 1 million mile cycle mark
 

lindenengineering

Well-known member
There are a lot of changes going on in the auto/personal mobility sector which are not always apparent faced with the current array of ICE powered vehicles.

There is without a doubt a seismic shift going on, with most of it centered in the Far East.
If there was for me any doubt about the future about electric & hybrid vehicles propulsion is was laid to rest with the emergence of the Toyota Prius.

Having jumped at the chance of a technical in depth course run locally by Toyota over a three week ("hands on" focused) approach to the Hybrid concept I was hooked. It wasn't the very conventional ICE under the hood (1500 /1750 CC Atkinson cycle engine) but rather the innovation of batteries, electric motors, controls and computer reliability in vehicles, areas which from my experience didn't live up too well to design and longevity.

After the Gen1 Prius emergence in 1998 things have changed enormously!

Even reliable telematics are becoming commonplace and the innovation is already present with the latest ICU vehicles with the accent on self driving concepts.

Since 2018 China has implemented a policy of ICE automobile phase out . This is huge shift representing a 20, million unit market ,almost double that of the USA domestic consumption/export !
It also has huge ramifications for the West's continual reliance upon ICE car export sales, and significant revenue earner.

https://www.greencarreports.com/new...story-internal-combustion-engine-ban-in-china.

I see Hyundai has realized that global automobile preparation has reached saturation point, and that alternative & radical approaches are the future.

Dennis

Here are two videos showing current trends.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xLSBobIid-c

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B98la3IimRg
 

lindenengineering

Well-known member
Yes your post show the USA is drastically behind the rest of the world but you don't mention that !
As a suggestion look at Scotland and the Isles of Orkney in particular . They are totally renewable, exporting the excess generation to the the UK mainland.

The US is missing out on the best opportunity in along time to develop this technology.
Dennis
 

autostaretx

Erratic Member
The US is missing out on the best opportunity in a long time to develop this technology.
Yes, as a GE stockholder, it was always galling to see everybody else's name emblazoned on the turbine nacelles all over the planet.
(usually Siemens)

--dick ("was" ... and still is...)
 
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lindenengineering

Well-known member
Yes, as a GE stockholder, it was always galling to see everybody else's name emblazoned on the turbine nacelles all over the planet.
(usually Siemens)

--dick
Yes except that GE makes the biggest for offshore applications.
The UK has better wind velocity than the rest of Europe but windmill blade diameter is restricted to 16 ft (the last time I looked) and the actual cluster quantity is limited by local by laws.

Take a look at this and the canny Scots !
Inventors of steam engines,. TV's and penicillin--to name a few items we use today!
Dennis
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FXe1hBvlylw
 

autostaretx

Erratic Member
When we had an unplanned stop (due to 2nd flat tire in one day) in our drive around England and Wales ...




we ended up on the shores of Colwyn Bay in Llanddulas, with a 25 square mile offshore wind farm:




The tip of the blades are 150 meters (490 feet) above the water.
Rotor diameter 105 meters (351 feet).
Planning started in 2008, construction began in 2011, first power was being produced by Sept 2013, construction complete Nov 2014, fully commissioned in June 2015.
160 3.6MW Siemens SWT-3.6-107 turbines. 576 MW total.
Details: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gwynt_y_Môr

--dick
p.s. that's a brand-new 2014 VW California RV ... you can't get them here in the US.
p.p.s. we did meet smaller on-shore units in Cornwall:

 
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drbutton

Member
Any electric vehicle I plug in will have its batteries charged by a coal-powered power plant in Pueblo for now. We have considered the $40k it would take to install solar, but the numbers don't add up for us. Besides, I am not aware of a 12-passenger electric anything at this time. I like electric vehicles, don't get me wrong, but the car must function well for the stated purpose and have adequate range. As for saving the planet, well, it is an excellent idea that has yet to become practical for some of us.
 

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