Our new home away from home

Ovrlnd_Trvlr said:

I will second the brand/image idea. A good brand/image will be working for you even when the shop is closed so you can surf/ski.

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Brand recognition is key. You should get with a graphic designer and typographer to get a basic theme setup, a logo, and possibly some naming conventions/brand details. It doesn't need to be much. Remember, our brains need and want an image to associate with a group of things. The better the color/logo is at sticking in our brains, the easier it is to create recognition and positive perception.

Good luck.

Midwestdrifter said:

Brand recognition is key. You should get with a graphic designer and typographer to get a basic theme setup, a logo, and possibly some naming conventions/brand details. It doesn't need to be much. Remember, our brains need and want an image to associate with a group of things. The better the color/logo is at sticking in our brains, the easier it is to create recognition and positive perception.

Good luck.

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Agree with all of you 100% on brand image!
Been doing our best to keep brand/identity moving ahead even as we're working hard trying to figure out the business model itself...



That said...if you all are suggesting we take on a tv show im going to have to politely disagree.
We've actually had a few requests/proposals for this type of thing both about small/tiny homes we design as well as vans. Not only do we both have no interest in being in front of a camera, but even less interest in the "creative" production that comes with them and skews the realities of costs, materials timelines etc (all in the interest of good TV of course).
Lets be very clear that "reality" TV no longer includes much in terms of reality...


We seem to be leaning toward making kits/components available for purchase on the side.

There's just too much interest from people to ignore it and I love the fact that we could provide something to those who cant afford a full build... Obviously nothing we can do to help the uber affordable DIY build, but we might at least be able to offer something in between that and the 100k with a 2 year waiting list option.

Yeah TV "reality" included is overrated. Focused social media and word of mouth is the way to go. Tie your brand to the target audiences lifestyle. Nice logo by the way. There are advantages and disadvantages to focusing on a specific vehicle.

Nice logo btw, I was always a fan of bi-color vector ones.

The real challenge with any of these personal startups is scaling, and replicating "you" and your skills. It works well when you can use your "free" labor. The real goal is to get a model established that can work with minimal involvement from you, unless the "hourly rate" you are making is very good. Once you start needing to train others to do the same work, you find that 90%+ of workers out there just can't perform at the same level (what we do is easy right? ).

For example designing kits that can be DIY assembled, and made using a CNC router and minimal labor on your part. Lots of folks can assembly an IKEA cabinet, but can't get their heads around a full build out.

In the end you want to be selling your expertise, not necessarily your labor. As there is always someone who will work harder for less. Its the idea/brand/product that needs to be doing the lifting, not your poor back! Of course I am not saying you shouldn't build vans yourself, I am just suggesting you take the long view of things, as I have personally watched many small business ventures burn bright.... and then burn out.

Here's a thought, how about picking a number limiting your full van build outs to what is comfortable to you while charging ahead on building the self build component market side. This might really cause a stir for limited build slots, allowing you to charge the necessary higher numbers that go along with doing things at a higher level of quality.

With this angle you still get to maintain a direct connection with the continual evolution of the Sprinter platform and your customer base's desires,
find out what works and have time come up with component designs that can be manufactured at a cost that will sell and still allow healthy margins. Keeping a handle on actual van production will simplify many things, including warranty issues. To me this approach seems like it may be able to scale up quicker.

I really enjoyed following along on this thread and have a feeling however you guys decide to proceed that you will make it happen.
Good luck!

TooMuchHair said:

Here's a thought, how about picking a number limiting your full van build outs to what is comfortable to you while charging ahead on building the self build component market side. This might really cause a stir for limited build slots, allowing you to charge the necessary higher numbers that go along with doing things at a higher level of quality.

With this angle you still get to maintain a direct connection with the continual evolution of the Sprinter platform and your customer base's desires,
find out what works and have time come up with component designs that can be manufactured at a cost that will sell and still allow healthy margins. Keeping a handle on actual van production will simplify many things, including warranty issues. To me this approach seems like it may be able to scale up quicker.

I really enjoyed following along on this thread and have a feeling however you guys decide to proceed that you will make it happen.
Good luck!

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A good suggestion, finding the price/volume equilibrium is key. Look at Advance RV for an example, highly custom, highest build quality, limited production. Crazy high prices (that people pay!).

There is good money to be made with pre-designed cabinets, with good instructions, in a DIY assembly type thing. Shipping could be a challenge, but a flat-pack type package could work. You do the technically difficult part, and the end user (or upfitter) supplies the bulk labor to assemble and finish (unless you use pre-finished plywood).

60 years ago the concrete trucks in Oakland Ca. had a saying painted on the revolving drum: "Find a need and fill it". I have never forgotten the saying. You have found the need. There is a market for modular DIY components. Many people simply do not have the skills or time to build their own.

Quality parts are required to establish a reputation. Your experience should provide that ability.

Do not want to get in a discussion about Sprinter vs the Transit but from a business point of view a van that sells 5 times more vans than the Sprinter would provide more potential customers. The 148" WB Transit interior dimensions are very close to a 144" WB Sprinter. The medium roof has less interior height than a high roof Sprinter and the high roof Transit has more interior height.

Another aspect that should be considered is what the new design Sprinter will look like. Will the interior dimensions change enough to make your parts obsolete?

Good luck with your venture.

You are all correct (and insightful) on many levels... and mostly spot on for the conversations we’re currently having.

We will absolutely limit builds (at least as long as I’m one of the people building them) because one of the pacts I made with my lovely wife over five years ago when we left our jobs was that as soon as I took a client for money only (rather than the creative energy or things I was learning) we would immediately shut the doors. So far that promise has kept me well in check, though not without struggles (that I’m sure this business will also deliver).

When we converted our garage into a “home base” for us in between travels I had no intention of starting a business... but soon after had many people asking us to help them do the same. We eventually started zenbox design and have been thrilled at the people we’ve met, conversations we’ve had and enormous creative energy it’s led to (with some obvious challenges in maintaining live/work balance, teaching my extremely ADD brain to stop chasing new clients because it meant I eventually had to do the work to keep them etc)... a few years in we’ve found that balance and I’m thrilled at the chance to design and see beautiful things come to life in built form.

ZENVANZ started in much the same way. I love the process of designing and problem solving. I am possibly the worlds biggest proponent of #Vanlife and the power of minimalizing/downsizing/living simply to change your life in a massive and positive way... so a business built on the premise of those things and inherently focused on good design, modularity and spreading the lifestyle couldn’t possibly be a better fit.

It just means I need to find a way to keep the same rigor/focus in focusing on live/work balance and sticking to our guns in terms of what we do/want to do and all should be good. For the first time in my life I’m focused upfront on structuring a business (unlike our first) that can exist/survive without me. I hope it does... but like all other endeavors in life- all we can do is wait and see.

If it doesn’t work out and there’s no market so be it.
If it starts to take over the lifestyle we’ve worked so hard to create, we’ll shut the doors or I’ll walk away and let my business partners carry the torch. So be it.

Hopefully over time the questions/discussions we’re having are about better endeavors. How to lower the prices to reach more people and facilitate more families chasing their own freedom... but for now all we can do is tackle the only things we can - the first few builds and the next few months!

Loving the ideas and conversations...keep me coming!

Ideal modular kits could be sold/indorsed by MB or Ford or Dodge or Nissan. An interesting business model, new on the market, is by an engineer from LA and his new company https://www.reconcampers.com/. He can sell his conversion directly via Nissan, just like VW sold their Westfalias, which could include full financing via Nissan.

We bought 2 Westfalias from VW dealerships, one in 1977 from the lot and one in 1985 with EU delivery. Painless purchases, reasonable mark-up, a single company to deal with. This ex-Westfalia market is dormant, not because we don’t have young families anymore but because:

1. Mercedes Benz almost killed Westfalia
2. VW partnership with Winnebago wasn’t as successful
3. SUVs took over
4. Manufacturers of B-class Camper Vans turned into profiteering from Baby Boomers via Touring Coaches.

Why am I mumbling about it, I believe that sleeping accommodation for young family is important, it can open the gate to this currently untapped and still dormant market. When I designed our Van, I had this hidden objective on the list to easily add a collapsible bed for two just below OH cabinets, if not used it could slide back like a harmonica along 8020 extrusions. This could be a valuable addition either for my daughter family or for a sale.

B-class in Europe is for 4 folks, not here, why? In NA we tend to have “Touring coaches” with glamorous, shiny, sparkly interiors or Outside Van odd fluorescent color camper vans for young and active couples. I love your bamboo.

There is a company in UK which sells flat kits to EU. Nice design, well-engineered packaging hence flat package advertising. http://www.evomotiondesign.co.uk/product/curved-kit-type-5-for-the-long-wheel-base-t5/

So, good luck in your endeavor, you have a great looking van, sorry for mumbling.

George.

A well engineered flat pack kit could be a great money maker, and would be ideal for a startup type business. Starting with pre-finished plywood (laminate/veneer) Install edge molding where needed. Flat pack it, and load onto a freight pallet, or ship UPS. They would be good looking, durable, and MUCH less work for the DIYer. No finishing labor? Good fit the first time? I would be tempted!

From a societal viewpoint, the good that will come from getting young people outside will outlast you. My best to you.

theDangerz said:

We eventually started zenbox design and have been thrilled at the people we’ve met, conversations we’ve had and enormous creative energy it’s led to (with some obvious challenges in maintaining live/work balance, teaching my extremely ADD brain to stop chasing new clients because it meant I eventually had to do the work to keep them etc)... a few years in we’ve found that balance and I’m thrilled at the chance to design and see beautiful things come to life in built form.

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I had difficulty working for corporations. Finally decided that the corporations were not the problem. It was me, due to my inability to play the game. Started my own business doing what I knew how to do which was designing packaging lines, building conveyors and some packaging machines. A one person business. I would design, sell and deliver the systems but independent welding shop did all the metal work and assembly.

I had the same desire to limit the size of the business so it would not expand to a size that prevented me from working from home and doing engineering instead of running a business. Was successful limiting the business size by not expanding the business. Could have made it a real business because the market was there if I had wanted. Did limit my income but I preferred to keep the life style and not "work" for a living.

After 38 years of being self employed engineer, I now just use the creative energy to build a conversion. Can not stop playing engineer.

Good luck balancing your life style with a business. I suspect that will be the toughest part in your new endeavor. Maybe you can delegate most of the work to others and only do the part that you enjoy and still maintain a good work/life balance. You have to limit your income to maintain the life style.

GeorgeRa said:

Ideal modular kits could be sold/indorsed by MB or Ford or Dodge or Nissan. An interesting business model, new on the market, is by an engineer from LA and his new company https://www.reconcampers.com/. He can sell his conversion directly via Nissan, just like VW sold their Westfalias, which could include full financing via Nissan.

We bought 2 Westfalias from VW dealerships, one in 1977 from the lot and one in 1985 with EU delivery. Painless purchases, reasonable mark-up, a single company to deal with. This ex-Westfalia market is dormant, not because we don’t have young families anymore but because:

1. Mercedes Benz almost killed Westfalia
2. VW partnership with Winnebago wasn’t as successful
3. SUVs took over
4. Manufacturers of B-class Camper Vans turned into profiteering from Baby Boomers via Touring Coaches.

Why am I mumbling about it, I believe that sleeping accommodation for young family is important, it can open the gate to this currently untapped and still dormant market. When I designed our Van, I had this hidden objective on the list to easily add a collapsible bed for two just below OH cabinets, if not used it could slide back like a harmonica along 8020 extrusions. This could be a valuable addition either for my daughter family or for a sale.

B-class in Europe is for 4 folks, not here, why? In NA we tend to have “Touring coaches” with glamorous, shiny, sparkly interiors or Outside Van odd fluorescent color camper vans for young and active couples. I love your bamboo.

There is a company in UK which sells flat kits to EU. Nice design, well-engineered packaging hence flat package advertising. http://www.evomotiondesign.co.uk/product/curved-kit-type-5-for-the-long-wheel-base-t5/

So, good luck in your endeavor, you have a great looking van, sorry for mumbling.

George.

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Hardly mumblings George... but certainly feel like enormous ideas and undertakings from my vantage point so early into this. Im not sure i even like the idea of this business endeavor being so large i come up on MB radar, much less working directly with them. Just seems big and vast compared to my current context...but thus is life.

We had the conversation about flat pack... and maybe its something we revisit in the future, but for now i cant get out of my craftmans mindset that hates anything veneer or laminate (especially in the uber moist environment of a camper interior). I know...its the affordable and scalable way to make things and its absolutely accepted in an ikea age- but im just not yet comfortable making it.

Oddly, I just had the same argument with a large interior design house that wants to buy our stools in larger quantities but wants us to make them in particle board and veneer like everyone else so they're lighter (rather than solid, reclaimed wood or bamboo like we do now)... I just cant yet bring myself to do it despite the fact i know its better for manufacturing, better for sales and better for profit.

I feel the same way in the van... i know we could sell things far cheaper or make far more money by simply building with a veneer...but i really have no interest in selling a product that im convinced will break down in a few years just because its what everybody else is doing (or because its easier/cheaper to ship). Hey, i never said i was a good businessman, just that i was starting a business.

Graphite Dave said:

I had difficulty working for corporations. Finally decided that the corporations were not the problem. It was me, due to my inability to play the game. Started my own business doing what I knew how to do which was designing packaging lines, building conveyors and some packaging machines. A one person business. I would design, sell and deliver the systems but independent welding shop did all the metal work and assembly.

I had the same desire to limit the size of the business so it would not expand to a size that prevented me from working from home and doing engineering instead of running a business. Was successful limiting the business size by not expanding the business. Could have made it a real business because the market was there if I had wanted. Did limit my income but I preferred to keep the life style and not "work" for a living.

After 38 years of being self employed engineer, I now just use the creative energy to build a conversion. Can not stop playing engineer.

Good luck balancing your life style with a business. I suspect that will be the toughest part in your new endeavor. Maybe you can delegate most of the work to others and only do the part that you enjoy and still maintain a good work/life balance. You have to limit your income to maintain the life style.

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Well said, and couldn't agree more!

I feel lucky that my wife saved me from the path I was on at an early enough age to enjoy the freedom (i'm convinced if she hadn't of talked me into to running away id already be dead, or at least a heart attack or two in), and i don't intend to squander the time we have left for anything... most of all for money.

I made these mistakes early on in our other business... the marketing/sales part of my brain took over even though I wasn't doing it for money. It was just leftover habit from my old working brain and a desire to help more people (but do so while working from the road).. but we soon ended up with more clients than I could handle or enjoyed and my little creative side-gig become a full on stressful job for the next year. Gah!

Now... I'm absolutely comfortable talking 90% of prospective clients out of hiring me, spending literally dozens of hours a week helping people that I know I will never take on as a paying client (I call it my pro-bono design work), and spending ridiculously more hours on my client projects and jobsites than I would ever consider billing them for. Honestly...I find it changes everything. I could work for days on something and have a good time, but you throw an argument with a client about money into the mix and suddenly Im sour and grumpy and hate every second spent on the project. That's what has kept me from accepting offer to grow the business of from hiring a set of employees that i know could allow us to bring in far more money.

A good (and very wise) friend of mine tells a story of how his business grew and became highly sought after and they were thrilled to hire employees and at how his business became a new family. But... as time goes on your family grows up, and the day one of his employees told him that his wife was pregnant things got real, real fast. Its all fun and games until suddenly you feel responsible for all these other people. Now, he cant find the balance and enjoy more freedom not because of his own income, but for fear of not maintaining theirs. The whole idea horrifies me.

Look, Im not against making money...i'm just against it ruling my life.
We've reduced/downsized our lifestyle far enough that we need little in the way of income to continue our existence in the manner we enjoy, so why change anything? Luckily, my business partners seem to be wholly onboard with that and we share the idea that lifestyle is at the heart of our business (hopefully for both our customers/clients and for us). If we make money at the same time, great!

My biggest frustration/struggle at this point in the business is that because i'm protecting my own lifestyle I know I cannot physically make everything on my own... which means finding partners for fabrication, etc... which means more money. Sadly, that also means our builds, our systems and components wont be cheap. I'm hoping that once this phase of the business is solved and running smoothly that than becomes the next creative endeavor.... solving how to continue making a high quality, modular system that actually works, but to find ways to get it in the hands of more people and get those people out enjoying the lifestyle at a more affordable pricepoint (without having to cut the corners to do so).

We recently visited Italy and one day went on a tour of Lamborgini, Pagani and Ferrari. The Pagani visit was very interesting. They purchase everything from other suppliers with the exception of the carbon fiber tub which they make. The factory is simply an assembly hall.

No reason that business plan would not work building conversions.

My business was also like that. All the fabrication was done by a job shop. I bought all the buy outs like bearings, chain wearstrips, motors, gearboxes etc. and drop shipped the parts to the shop which was 4 hours travel time from my home. They did the fabrication and assembly. Conveyors were designed as modules and were assembled into sections small enough that we could load them in my pickup and trailer for delivery.

Been a while since we made any updates or posts here (seems to be what happens when you schedule 3 months to build out 2 vans and perfect a cabinetry system that could easily take 2 years).

Anyhow...
Been an interesting journey already with tons of lessons learned in starting businesses, starting businesses with friends, van building and pretty much everything else one could learn in a 2month period of hectic chaos and upheaval.

After a few weeks of van building my partners had enough of a glimpse of how hard this work is and eventually started to come around to the idea of focusing on a modular DIY kit of cabinets. We obviously will still finish out the vans we have for good images and marketing of the kit in action (and Im sure we'll build more out in the future for further prototyping and engineering), but the goal will be closer to what i always envisioned, which is a kit of beautiful cabinets that anyone can bolt into their van with little more than a screwdriver.

But you guys didn't come here to read about business hurdles- you came for build details!
This will be a very brief synopsis/highlights, but i've been trying to do a better job of updating our blog with build details... so feel free to take a peek there and/or ask more specific questions here.

We started where we all start... insulation and sound deadening ever gap and panel. Then we did what many of us do...rivnuting every hole in the van. Many do this just in case they need them... we do it because our "system" literally uses every on of those holes so we dont have to drill new holes in the van.





We have also been accumulating the newly engineered bent bamboo panels and some aluminum frames (luckily we had the sense to get some of these underway before our winter trip.

The act of marrying these crazy durable panels into the aluminum frame is an art in and of itself, but once together these things look incredible. I cant wait to have a bit of time (or a client interested in) staining a dark set to "pop" against the aluminum, or even powdercoating the frame a bright red or yellow!









We've also been running conduit and pulling wires. Im absolutely anal about what happens behind the wall panels and the wiring is evidence of that. Everything gets run through smurf tube or pex for protection, any holes cut are coated to ensure no rust and then grommeted to ensure no scraping/cutting of wires.

Im certain it's overkill (especially when you consider our system makes it easy to get behind the panels if you ever want/need to) and feel free to tell me it is... but i'm okay with overkill that means everything works when you need it!









More to come as soon as I catch another breather from the shop!

So excited to see this thing soon

coffee colored stain would look INSANE on those cabinets! I'd do it in a heartbeat if I were in the market.

Consider "SO" cords to make the wiring easier. No conduit or pulling wires. Tighter radius bends.

Good stuff. I need some aluminum components welded for my van build and wonder if you can recommend a shop in the Portland area. Thanks!


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spidervan said:

Good stuff. I need some aluminum components welded for my van build and wonder if you can recommend a shop in the Portland area. Thanks!


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J.D.Cross from Portland OR did SS tanks, Al gate, and recently Al coolant tank for my D5 installation. I think they did the same tank for someone on this forum. Excellent shop.

http://www.jdcross.com/
https://sprinter-source.com/forum/showpost.php?p=541422&postcount=927