Li-Ion Drop in Battery Upgrade

Another way to "cover the panels": work at night (or in a garage)

--dick (not meant as a joke ... some people don't realize that "night" can serve as a work-around)

How about this for a Li battery upgrade, https://voltapowersystems.com/indus...gbPbEsyqWrnqAvSpcyYQl71YlT5qQqxgOXmVFqUnW_9gY. Finally a Dealer is getting smart about offering aftermarket upgrades that discerning buyers may opt for. I'm guessing you could probably schedule and appointment with Volta to get the system installed like you can with Equalizer for Levelers. Sound like a great system. I really like the auto engine start feature to recharge your batteries when they get low. I'm not a Boondocker but would certainly appreciate that you can run AC anywhere and for hours at a time. I really would love to have an all electric Unity! I don't know what the cost is but I see there is about $20k difference in the price of a Winnebago Travato if you opt for the Pure Energy Management System (48v Volta System). I'm guessing it won't be long until Winnebago offers it as an option on their View/Navion.

SSTraveler said:

How about this for a Li battery upgrade, https://voltapowersystems.com/indus...gbPbEsyqWrnqAvSpcyYQl71YlT5qQqxgOXmVFqUnW_9gY. Finally a Dealer is getting smart about offering aftermarket upgrades that discerning buyers may opt for. I'm guessing you could probably schedule and appointment with Volta to get the system installed like you can with Equalizer for Levelers. Sound like a great system. I really like the auto engine start feature to recharge your batteries when they get low. I'm not a Boondocker but would certainly appreciate that you can run AC anywhere and for hours at a time. I really would love to have an all electric Unity!

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Wonder how long it takes idling the Sprinter engine to even partially replenish that many watt hours in the battery bank? Sort of goes against the recent mantra about extended idling of the MB diesel engine. How much solar is up top I also wonder? Looked like the now deadly to fibreglass roof surfaces flex panels.
Interesting, none the less.

Winterbagoal said:

Wonder how long it takes idling the Sprinter engine to even partially replenish that many watt hours in the battery bank? Sort of goes against the recent mantra about extended idling of the MB diesel engine. How much solar is up top I also wonder? Looked like the now deadly to fibreglass roof surfaces flex panels.
Interesting, none the less.

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It’s an 18 kilowatt-hour battery and and 8 kilowatt alternator. So probably about 3 hours charge time from empty to full. The solar looks to be the standard 400 watt factory system, so not that good. I’m guessing the setup cost at least $25k. The energy storage is the equivalent of 14 or 15 Battleborns.

I agree it isn't recommended to idle a Sprinter, but having the engine start automatically would certainly get your attention. I think it just shows that Volta has Engineered a complete system. If the RV Manufacturers offering this option don't also offer all electric appliances then you are still only part way to an all electric coach. Even the Travato still uses a propane cooktop, they do offer the NovaKool compressor Refrigerator and the Truma Combi which gives you electric water heater and furnace. I can't see buying a new rig, changing out new appliances for all electric appliances and spending another $20k for the ultimate all electric power system. You'd be pushing $200k for a Unity and still stuck finding a way to get rid of the essentially brand new appliances you removed. I just think it's interesting to see a manufacturers movement in the Class B and C market to all electric. The Class A industry has had it for sometime.

I'm with SSTraveler - expensive, leaves some problems unsolved, but it's a very interesting development. That system seems to have an engine auto-start and it would have to have the fast idle kit, both to protect the engine and to get more power off the 2nd alternator. I'm sure you'd still have to watch your usage - it's not going to give you 24/7 air conditioning for sure! Still, if you drove a lot between dry camping sites, and you were very aware of electric usage, it'd be a very interesting rig to drive - after all, you have to drive every so many days anyway to dump and fill. The solar is a bit of a weak point in this system - I don't think you can put much more than 5-600 watts on the roof - that'd give you a max of around 125-150 Ah on a good day, and that's not much when you're trying to recharge 18 kwh of batteries - it'd take over a week to recharge with solar alone. I'd love to see real-life reports from whoever ends up driving that rig!

I'd much rather have something like this www.wattfuelcell.com


2014 UMB 2013 Sprinter 3500

Shadow5501 said:

It’s an 18 kilowatt-hour battery and and 8 kilowatt alternator. So probably about 3 hours charge time from empty to full. The solar looks to be the standard 400 watt factory system, so not that good. I’m guessing the setup cost at least $25k. The energy storage is the equivalent of 14 or 15 Battleborns.

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So, the problem is still how to replenish the power used in a reasonable amount of time and in a relatively efficient manner. I wouldn't be idling my engine for 3 hours to recharge them, as the damage could be very costly to repair/replace. The solar seems inadequate as designed, but there's only so much real estate on top to work with.
If you were a "tourer" as opposed to a "destination camper", the recharging would be helped by the driving between stops.
James Dyson recently scrapped their EV car project, after determining they couldn't build one that was financially viable. The story said they had an army of engineers working on it for 2 years.

Winterbagoal said:

Wonder how long it takes idling the Sprinter engine to even partially replenish that many watt hours in the battery bank? Sort of goes against the recent mantra about extended idling of the MB Diesel engine.

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At the 2019 Winkler Rally the MB reps gave a tech talk and said that it is OK to idle up to 2-3 hours so long as you take it out for at least 20 minutes at highway speeds to allow the emissions system to cycle. This is assuming that you are feeding your Sprinter mostly B5 or less diesel. If you are using greater than B5 regularly then idle should be limited to 5 minutes or less. Also the occasional tank full of B20 isn’t harmful so long as you are traveling and keeping the engine hot, should never store your Sprinter with B20 fuel, that’s just asking for engine issues later.

The idle issue keeps reappearing. Remember that prolonged "normal speed" idling is not the same as prolonged "high speed" idling. Mercedes has several high speed idle modifications, but there doesn't seem to be a lot of documentation about prolonged high speed idle and possible engine damage. It's certainly done - there are fleets of refrigerated trucks, for example. Here's an older thread: https://sprinter-source.com/forum/showthread.php?t=49531

DiverBob said:

At the 2019 Winkler Rally the MB reps gave a tech talk and said that it is OK to idle up to 2-3 hours so long as you take it out for at least 20 minutes at highway speeds to allow the emissions system to cycle. This is assuming that you are feeding your Sprinter mostly B5 or less diesel. If you are using greater than B5 regularly then idle should be limited to 5 minutes or less. Also the occasional tank full of B20 isn’t harmful so long as you are traveling and keeping the engine hot, should never store your Sprinter with B20 fuel, that’s just asking for engine issues later.

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Precisely why I asked the question. The answers aren't terribly definitive, as there are many factors to consider that affect the definitions of normal use versus abuse.

Not sure you need a such I big Volts battery in a small rig. I wonder if the can place a 230 vac charger with an EV charge port? This way you can park it at an EV charger at the grocery store to recharge while you shop.

I'm finally getting around to installing my SmartSolar MPPT 100/50. (I went with the 50 in case someday I get more panels).

I installed a battery switch on the positives where the old go power solar controller in the overhead bulkhead was, and plan to join the negatives.

I plan to install the new Victron in the bay with the Magnum as I see some others have done. Tight fit, but I have no plans to upgrade the Magnum soon.

My existing wiring is a 10 gauge tin over copper UV rated wire from the roof to the goPower. The goPower to Battery bay is 8 gauge copper. I was a little disappointed to find that that 8 gauge terminates in the battery compartment with a tiny 12 gauge wire with a 30 amp fuse. It seems a little silly to go from that 12 gauge wire back to an 8 gauge for the extra foot over to the new solar controller. I thought about cutting off the 12 gauge but LTV left so little 8 gauge there I'm not sure I have enough room to get a new crimp on. I haven't crawled around behind to see if I could get more wire yet...

Also it seems I should fuse both sides, both the input and output of the new Victron. Its hard to find an inline fuse holder larger that 10 gauge. I realize the gauge is dependent on the length of the connection obviously but it would seem better to stick with 8 gauge all the way through?

Final thought is, I figured to fire it all up and get it working, then later go and switch to series/parallel as recommended. I haven't looked at the roof yet but I assume I would need some new cable or connectors to accomplish that?

Thanks for any insights!

Steve,

The 12awg fuse enters the battery compartment from the rear departing from a wire bundle easily accessed on your back under the vehicle. You should be able to pull the fuse holder out through the access hole. LTV has a taped solder splice off the 8awg down wire. There is plenty of wire to cut off the fuse wire. It will be easier to crimp splice outside (behind) the battery box and run additional 8awg wire direct to your controller. You can use the existing inverter bay access hole to enter the compartment and to also run the positive from the controller back to the battery compartment which you can then fuse.

Blue Sea Systems has marine grade 6awg in line fuse holders.
https://www.bluesea.com/products/5068/MAXI_In-Line_Fuse_Holder

When you switch to a MPPT controller you're pushing it to stay with 4 parallel panels and 8awg wire. It depends on the total wire length LTV used which is unknown. I was uncomfortable with such a narrow safety margin on a bright sunny day, so I used a series/parallel configuration to keep the max amperage well within safety limits. There are calculators you can find on line to help you make your decision.

My recollection is two 100 watt panels in series do not require a fuse. Three in series would. However, there is the advantage of being able to disconnect the panels from the controller. It sounds like you have addressed that with your switch. My understanding is if the panels are supplying power to the MPPT controller with no output (battery disconnected) you can damage the controller. The panels should be disconnected from the controller prior to disconnecting the battery.

You can buy the required connectors but I found it easier to use a combiner box in the event I added a fifth or sixth panel. Both to connect the panels and add a fuse if then required. Be sure to purchase the required tool needed to disassemble your current connectors.
https://www.amazon.com/Renogy-Branc...658&sprefix=solar+series+conne,aps,175&sr=8-8

.

These are a lot cheaper. I used one when I swapped out my flooded batteries to AGM. I used the appropriate fuse. My solar wire that LTV installed was 8awg.

8awg Fuse Holder

I also mounted one of these to the overhead supports in the battery bay to connect the solar wire on 1 side and the fuse holder on the other.

Dual Heavy-Duty Terminal Studs with Connecting Bus Bar

You can see it in the back right corner.

Thanks Mitch. I always intended to wire it series/parallel someday, especially for the potential advantage in shade. I'm just not sure exactly the easiest way to do that or the effort involved so I planned it as a later upgrade after some research.

My thinking was that LTV must have provided wiring that would safely handle the 400 watts under some perfect theoretical solar condition I'm unlikely to experience plus an adequate safety margin. As you say not knowing the length and other factors its an unknown.

If I'm looking at the right goPower flex panel online each one is capable of producing 17.5V at 5.68 Amps which is just about 100 watts. I assume that's in certain places in the world and if you can turn the van partially on its side to get just the right angle. So realistically if I figure 25 amps for 4 to add a safety factor using some online calculators it works out to be OK for 8 gauge at 23 feet, but thats based on a solar situation I'm unlikely to ever experience.

I can see now why you are saying its close if I was designing this LTV I would have made it 6 gauge just to add some extra margin for sure.

I'll go back to where my RV is stored with a creeper and look behind the battery box as you suggest. I had planned to do that as I found an extra pair of 8 gauge wire in the cavity where the old goPower was. I was hoping that when I crawl under the van I'll find it behind the battery box, although I'm not getting my hopes up.

That would allow me to parallel two sets of 8 gauge wires together which would eliminate any concerns of current carrying capacity.

Man I originally thought upgrading my solar controller was going to be a one day project and so far its turning out to be a lot more thought challenging than I was expecting.

Edit: Not being familiar with the solar connectors I wanted to take a look at that before making the serial-parallel change. When I looked at the solar wiring on the roof for the first time it looks like somebody just threw up wire.

msmolow said:

Steve,

The 12awg fuse enters the battery compartment from the rear departing from a wire bundle easily accessed on your back under the vehicle. You should be able to pull the fuse holder out through the access hole. LTV has a taped solder splice off the 8awg down wire. There is plenty of wire to cut off the fuse wire. It will be easier to crimp splice outside (behind) the battery box and run the wire direct to your controller. You can use the existing inverter bay access hole to enter the compartment and to also run the positive from the controller back to the battery compartment which you can then fuse.

Blue Sea Systems has marine grade 6awg in line fuse holders.
https://www.bluesea.com/products/5068/MAXI_In-Line_Fuse_Holder

When you switch to a MPPT controller you're pushing it to stay with 4 parallel panels and 8awg wire. It depends on the total wire length LTV used which is unknown. I was uncomfortable with such a narrow safety margin on a bright sunny day, so I used a series/parallel configuration to keep the max amperage well within safety limits. There are calculators you can find on line to help you make your decision.

My recollection is two 100 watt panels in series do not require a fuse. Three in series would. However, there is the advantage of being able to disconnect the panels from the controller. My understanding is if the panels are supplying power to the MPPT controller with no output (battery disconnected) you can damage the controller. The panels should be disconnected from the controller prior to disconnecting the battery.

You can buy the required connectors but I found it easier to use a combiner box and not deal with a faulty connector of my doing. Be sure to purchase the required tool needed to disassemble your current connectors.

Click to expand...

I think LTV was able to use 8awg wire with parallel panels because of the PWM controller. My understanding is a series/parallel configuration does worse in shade, because both of the series tied panels degrade even if only one panel is shaded. That's the chief advantage of all parallel. Only the shaded panel degrades. Series/parallel is used to keep the amperage lower for smaller diameter wire. Those who re-wire with 6awg or 4awg do so to be able to keep more panels parallel.

You might be able to do it in one day. Disassembly of the mc4 connectors and reconnecting in series parallel on the roof will take 5 minutes. You may need to buy some patch cables. They come in various lengths with connectors already present.

Since you can use existing access holes into both the battery and inverter compartments figuring out how you want to mount the controller will take the longest. If you choose to do what I did it shouldn't take that long. What took me the longest was mounting the panels and combiner box, penetrating the roof, and removing an entertaiment panel for inside wiring. You don't need to do that.

Once you finish your research and are comfortable with wiring requirements, the physical installation should be easy. My research indicated that despite LTV doing so, solder joint are not advisable due to the vibration. Crimp joints are easier if crimping similar wire size, so I continued 8awg from the down bundle to the inverter. From the inverter to the battery terminal blocks I used the largest wire the controller would accept, 6awg. That's why I used the Blue Sea 6awg fuse holder.

Steve,

It just occurred to me that the unused pair of 8awg wire you found in the old controller cabinet may go to above the coach door. LTV in its solar pre-wire takes the wire from behind the remote gauges panel above the coach door then loops it above your controller cabinet (to be cut and spliced into a controller located there) then down to the battery. If they do that for all units, then after bringing a separate wire from the roof to the controller, they would cut the loop, leaving unused one end in the cabinet, the other behind the gauges.

From a manufacturing standpoint that would be cheaper than having two different wiring harnesses in inventory.

Pull your gauge panel above the coach door. If you have the wire bundle I show in my write-up you'll have your answer. I don't remember an unused wire pair in the harness where their fuse exits.

Mitch,

Maybe shade is not the right word I should have said "overcast". I currently store my RV under a metal roof so its well lit but in diffuse light. In that circumstance the PWM produces zero current. I think the MPPT may crack a couple amps on that, and I thought I read that a series/parallel connection, since the voltage is doubled, would "turn on" the controller in a lower ambient light. But regardless I think long term I would go series/parallel for sure regardless.

Not sure I am following you on the loop but I verified there is no apparent extra wire bundle behind the battery compartment waiting for me to find it just now after I rolled under to look around.

I'll probably go ahead and finish the installation as is - since I have a solar switch I can test it under the metal roof and turn it off if the sunlight is brilliant until I find time to change the roof setup to series/parallel just to be safe.

Actually I realize I really was being dense. Since my RV came with 4 panels on the roof I have never really looked at them and didn't know what an MC4 connector was and that it was standard. From looking at the connections on my roof I can see that 12:00 and 3:00 cells on my roof are already wired in parallel and then tied to the other panels. It would probably take less time to change this to a series/parallel wiring then it took to write this post. At least this part will be easy after all.