Is it possible to bypass the dealership?

My 2014 NCV3 diesel Sprinter is now in the shop for the fourth trip-cancelling repair in five years (19,800 miles) and now out of warranty. Seems like every time we head out on extended vacation, our Sprinter-based Roadtrek goes belly-up, forcing a return home to the local MB dealership. VIN is WDAPF4CD0E5841168. I live in Virginia; ZIP 20132.

I don't object so much to the fact that nearly any repair requires the dealership so much as that there are so few of them ('authorized' Sprinter repair) and it takes a week to ten days for each shop visit. Our most common issues relate to DEF, DPF, and NoX sensors (surprise!)

After a lot of research and review in this and similar forums, I see confirmation of dealership reliance necessitated by teach-back/teach-in, reprograming, code-clearing, ECM/ECU/TCM tunes and updates, marriage to the VIN, and similar MB-only constraints (forgive incorrect use of some of the terms). And it isn't as if you don't like the local shop you can simply bring your rig somewhere else. There isn't any somewhere else (local), which is especially problematic if on the road -- the reason we have this RV to begin with. Contrast those constraints with sporadic (anecdotal) news and reviews about bypass modules, remote coding/flashing, removal/bypass, etc., and I'm not sure what the ground truth really is.

So here's the question: Is there a way to cut the tether from the MB dealership for repairs? Can I bring this rig to a local repair facility without requiring a followup to MB for tuning/programming? Can I DIY repairs without a followup to MB? Is there or is there not a solution for removing the concrete reliance on a MB dealership? If not; why not? It just seems unlikely to me that thousands (tens of thousands?) of commercial fleet vehicles are tethered to their local MB dealership. There must be an alternative.

Thanks in advance for your advice and assistance!
 
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smoline

New member
Sail Quick! Are you able to respond?

Sounds like you need a better "dealer"......
I'm ready to storm any beach, but a severely limited in dealership options.

More importantly, though; I would really like to cut the cord and maintain some autonomy regarding the Sprinter.
 

lindenengineering

Well-known member
My 2014 NCV3 diesel Sprinter is now in the shop for the fourth trip-cancelling repair in five years (19,800 miles) and now out of warranty. Seems like every time we head out on extended vacation, our Sprinter-based Roadtrek goes belly-up, forcing a return home to the local MB dealership. VIN is WDAPF4CD0E5841168. I live in Virginia; ZIP 20132.

I don't object so much to the fact that nearly any repair requires the dealership so much as that there are so few of them ('authorized' Sprinter repair) and it takes a week or ten days for each shop visit. Our most common issues relate to DEF, DPF, and NoX sensors (surprise!)

After a lot of research and review in this and similar forums, I see confirmation of dealership reliance necessitated by teach-back/teach-in, reprograming, code-clearing, ECM/ECU/TCM tunes and updates, marriage to the VIN, and similar MB-only constraints (forgive incorrect use of some of the terms). And it isn't like if you don't like the local shop you can simply bring your rig somewhere else. There isn't any somewhere else (local), which is especially problematic if on the road -- the reason we have this RV to begin with. Contrast those constraints with sporadic (anecdotal) news and reviews about bypass modules, remote coding/flashing, removal/bypass, etc., and I'm not sure what the ground truth really is.

So here with the question: Is there a way to cut the tether from the MB dealership for repairs? Can I bring this rig to a local repair facility without requiring a followup to MB for tuning/programming? Can I DIY repairs without a followup to MB? Is there or is there not a solution for removing the concrete reliance on a MB dealership? If not; why not? It just seems unlikely to me that thousands (tens of thousands?) of commercial fleet vehicles are tethered to their local MB dealership. There must be an alternative.

Thanks in advance for your advice and assistance!
To answer this question:-
So here with the question: Is there a way to cut the tether from the MB dealership for repairs? Can I bring this rig to a local repair facility without requiring a followup to MB for tuning/programming? Can I DIY repairs without a followup to MB? Is there or is there not a solution for removing the concrete reliance on a MB dealership? If not; why not? It just seems unlikely to me that thousands (tens of thousands?) of commercial fleet vehicles are tethered to their local MB dealership. There must be an alternative.

In short in its entirety there is NOT!

Several things are in play here.
It should be clearly understood that there are salient factors that prohibit you from DIY repairs in their entirety (again that word entirety)

MB dealerships in fact any brand dealership and its franchise brand(s) is no better than a good Independent shop or even a capable DIY'r for that matter. Their advantage is factory tech support, factory workshop info systems and of course factory scan tools and programming.
Technical abilities is another issue, I will come back to that!

Firstly all manufacturers have discovered that selling info and having parts/sub components needing to be coded or programmed into the applicable platform is a great revenue earner. Some have ways of milking it to its utmost degree. Hence if you have the money it can be for your eyes only "007" but that cost for most is beyond economic budgets and the return is questionable.
Clearly then MB and its platforms are the "ultimate milkers" but they are in the gang of Euro manufacturers where this is expected. However don't for one minute think that US/Asian badged brands are better! They are NOT just maybe less so!

As an Independant shop owner I can do almost all an MB dealer can do, but some things are restricted & not for 007's eyes, as MB will not give them to M and Ms Moneypenny.
These are currently Instrument programming, Security Systems and some Misc ABS module programming as the actually outcomes of programming a $4000 ABS brick & module is sketchy. So let the MB bums & Spectre in the web cloud do it on their dime if they screw it up.
Again I must emphasize that most scan tools even "cheap oh" clones from China will not allow you to do this type of work I've mentioned above.
Entry level expense of a Pro scan tool will be about $7000 with a $650 quarterly fee for it license and programming by remote through its internal J box feature is $125 a session.

I am told that Sprinters from 2018 will have a different operating system and easier to fix , but I am not holding my breath as I pass a laconic eye on the whole business. Really the trend is to keep you Mr Owner with tools out of everything under the hood or chassis & contrary to getting better its going to get worse.

You are only limited by your abilities
Yes at the moment you really are.
First having the right tools is paramount to doing it all as a DIY'r as have mentioned.
Do you the ability to buy and rent , sub contract job task in hand from Q and his gadgetry at base at MI6?

Those abilities come from reading known live data and of course the codes you get.
Training is a must with active workshop tech systems , bulletin updates and practical knowledge on control micro systems including Can Bus protocols using an oscilloscope.

Technical abilities in the trade are equally sketchy.
Just because Bubba's Autos local Chevy Fixer is now German Autoteknik is any better is anyone's guess . I always like to ankr when was the last time your senior tech went on a factory course on diagnostics at $3000 to $5000 per week plus accommodation & expenses will get some interesting responses .
This picture really tells you is that the trade in general is about 2 generations behind in everything when it comes to modern vehicles, & they have a hard time keeping up, in fact we all do!
In any case we just concentrate on what makes money!
In our case its diesel, Sprinters , and Landrover, Jaguar, & Mini products which are some of the most unreliable POS and arguably worse than MB stuff!
It could be something for a future post about how the UK cannot make a decent car for NA markets if the country's life depended upon it!:rolleyes:
But they make us money and that is important.

I will leave you with a thought!
Many budding DIY'rs buy a scan tool for dreams of DIY fixing and cutting the strings from the dealar , but they really can't use it past the codes stage. So boiled own they have JUST BOUGHT an expense code reader.
Its a fact that most scan tool makers make most of their revenue by selling scan tools to budding DIY'rs that don't do the job as well as everyone hopes. Consequently the tool gets bunged in a drawer and gathers dust, whereas the Independent shop only buys what is necessary to do his chosen area of low hanging fruit work making money.
That by itself is why there are few MB Independent shops in NA providing cheaper service work--They don't exist! In short there is a hidden expensive entry fee to provide good MB Sprinter service even at DIY level.
All the best
Dennis
 
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glasseye

Well-known member
Sigh. Bad news and it just keeps getting badder. "Right to repair" legislation notwithstanding.

I never shoulda sold my Asstro. :idunno:
 
Thanks, Dennis. I was hoping you would contribute. Very detailed (and hush-hush!), but I'm cleared for all the secret codewords. Some followup below:

To answer this question:-
So here with the question: Is there a way to cut the tether from the MB dealership for repairs?
In short in its entirety there is NOT!
Okay, so I'm stuck tethered to MB and difficult-to-find and deal with service locations.


Firstly all manufacturers have discovered that selling info and having parts/sub components needing to be coded or programmed into the applicable platform is a great revenue earner.
Clearly then MB and its platforms are the "ultimate milkers" but they are in the gang of Euro manufacturers where this is expected. However don't for one minute think that US/Asian badged brands are better! They are NOT just maybe less so!
You've anticipated my follow-on question: If I switch to another platform (RAM? Ford Transit?) will I be liberated from the proprietary tether?


Many thanks for your reply!
 
D

Deleted member 50714

Guest
Mustang:

Locate an independent shop who employs Star Xentry MB specific brand diagnostic machine (starting at $40,000) and annual subscription ($3,000). Any place else will be less than optimal.

In other words, you won't get your monies worth and will paying some dummy to guess what's going on.

It is also imperative that "Technicians" keep up to date, at minimum, MONTHLY on TECH TOPIC Webcasts published monthly in https://www.cvtekinfo.com/CVTek/

CV stands for Commercial Vans.


BTW, the following components have been upgraded on your van.

NOx sensors. Q-5.

Pressure Differential sensor.

Exhaust Back Pressure sensor. (Two types, specific to ECU and not interchangeable and why it is important to order through dealer EPC).

DEF tank heater.

DEF pressure delivery line.

DPF brackets. (It has been reported defective DPF brackets can cause the transmission bell housing to crack.) It is also important to note there is a specific tightening sequence common to DPF bracket installation. The sequence is intended to minimize preload on related components. Particularly, the turbo-DPF union/joint.

Don't allow any schmuck to work on your Sprinter. Do your due diligence.

Nox.
 
Mustang:

Locate an independent shop who employs Star Xentry MB specific brand diagnostic machine (starting at $40,000) and annual subscription ($3,000). Any place else will be less than optimal.

In other words, you won't get your monies worth and will paying some dummy to guess what's going on.

BTW, the following components have been upgraded on your van.
NOx sensors. Q-5.
Pressure Differential sensor.
Exhaust Back Pressure sensor. (Two types, specific to ECU and not interchangeable and why it is important to order through dealer EPC).
DEF tank heater.
DEF pressure delivery line.
DPF brackets. (It has been reported defective DPF brackets can cause the transmission bell housing to crack.) It is also important to note there is a specific tightening sequence common to DPF bracket installation. The sequence is intended to minimize preload on related components. Particularly, the turbo-DPF union/joint.

Don't allow any schmuck to work on your Sprinter. Do your due diligence.

Nox.
Thanks, Nox. You're another contributor who I was hoping to hear from.
I'm with you on finding a qualified service technician, but I don't know how to find the shop you're describing without calling or visiting every one and hoping they're telling me the truth when I do.

I also appreciate the info on updated OEM components. Except now that I'm out of warranty I would be paying for all that, which I doubt I could afford.

Ouch
 

lindenengineering

Well-known member
Ford/ Ram!!
In short NO!
In some cases worse.

Ford uses IDS (their operating systems ) so does Landrover. They have the same afflictions as MB just a bit more relaxed on the areas I mentioned .
Ram vans are a bit less so!
Both marques have web site tech info which is available at about $35 per half day on average, Tech Authority is Mopar brand support , Ford ETis etc https://www.fordinstallersupport.com/

Again some things do require programming and the expense of buying the tooling etc again.
I looked at a US famous scan tool to upgrade being Snap On Zeus . We have two Verus at $4500 each in the shop for domestics , the new one to upgrade is $11500 with 3 years of subscription paid.
Frankly the latest and greatest would not make make me any more money since my Ford /Ram concentration is small whereas we fix about 4 Sprinter daily which is where the investment is at present.
Cheers Dennis
 

lindenengineering

Well-known member
As a post script to this:-
Toyota and Lexus with Scion are the zen masters .
No pi$$ing about, simple functional and easy to use, pay the subscription and You get it all!

No wonder then Toyota is the best worldwide in product and ability to fix.
Best customer loyalty in the business, and I run one Lexus ES 300H and three Prius in our shop fleet.
In reliability they kick ass and parts support is #1!
But because they are SO reliable I can't make money fixing them!
I have a 64 bit Windows 10 laptop plus mongoose cable and there you are!
Investment is about $2000 in scan tooling.
No wonder Toyota/Lexus has kicked MB and BMW off their cocky perches.
Just don't let the world know too much.
https://techinfo.toyota.com/techInfoPortal/appmanager/t3/ti?_pageLabel=ti_ts_lite&_nfpb=true

Here's the tech info site TIS & COST
https://techinfo.toyota.com/techInfoPortal/appmanager/t3/ti?_pageLabel=ti_whats_tis&_nfpb=true

Dennis

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KDpldAv0uQE
 
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D

Deleted member 50714

Guest
Thanks, Nox. You're another contributor who I was hoping to hear from.
I'm with you on finding a qualified service technician, but I don't know how to find the shop you're describing without calling or visiting every one and hoping they're telling me the truth when I do.

I also appreciate the info on updated OEM components. Except now that I'm out of warranty I would be paying for all that, which I doubt I could afford.

Ouch
Locating a qualified repair facility can be a challenge. I called around and asked, found two within a 100 miles who claim to use Xentry. This one, I have not used, appears competent and well equipped. http://www.autohaussb.com Just an example and know you are too far away.

Freightliner service may be a good alternative?
 

Boxster1971

2023 Sprinter 2500 144wb AWD
My 2014 NCV3 diesel Sprinter is now in the shop for the fourth trip-cancelling repair in five years (19,800 miles) and now out of warranty. Seems like every time we head out on extended vacation, our Sprinter-based Roadtrek goes belly-up, forcing a return home to the local MB dealership. VIN is WDAPF4CD0E5841168. I live in Virginia; ZIP 20132...
...Thanks in advance for your advice and assistance!
You did not mention which MB shop is working on your van. I live not far from you in Howard Country, Maryland. I can tell you from personal experience there are some Mercedes dealers in the greater WashDC/Baltimore area that do VERY POOR work on Sprinters.

I my view and experience you have two choices. The best dealer for Sprinter service in the Mid-Atlantic area in Sun Motors in Mechanicsburg, PA. A lot of us in the area go to this dealer after a local MB dealer messed up our Sprinters. If your Sprinter is disabled they will send their flatbed trailer to haul it into their shop. I had them service my Sprinter from 2013-2016.
https://www.mercedes.sunmotorcars.com/

The second best option in my experience is American Sprinter Sales, a Freightliner Sprinter dealer, in Annapolis, MD. Their rates are a bit higher than Sun Motors, but they also know Sprinters. I've had them service and fix my Sprinter for the last few years when I got tired of driving to Sun Motors.
http://www.annapolis.ftlvansdealer.com/

There is also a Freightliner Sprinter dealer in Baltimore, but I have now experience with them.
http://www.baltimore.ftlvansdealer.com/car-service-baltimore-md

Remember Sprinters in USA were all from Frieghtliner before Dodge (DCA) or Mercedes. The Freightliner just has a different badge in front and on the steering wheel.

Good luck,
 
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Pneumo

Member
Wish I had a horse to pull my Sprinter wagon.
Having grown up near your current location, I think you are fortunate in that there are certainly a fair amount of independent euro shops. Whittling the list down and determining which may be reputable will certainly be the challenge.

That said, I would be curious to know what type of trip ending breakdowns you have experienced. It is possible that some of them may not have necessitated MB specific care at all. As Dennis outlined, independant shops can certainly be capable of handling the vast majority of repairs. Granted, you will likely be unable to find a shop as knowledgable and well equipped to handle Sprinters as his. That doesn't mean that you can't find someone reputable and capable of sorting your van out!

DIY is absolutely possible in some cases, if you can afford the time and effort of course. Even if you dont do any repairs yourself, using this site as a resource to diagnose your issues can absolutely help you determine whether you need to take it to MB or if you can take advantage of an independant shop.
 

sailquik

Well-known member
USMC Mustang,
I will 2nd Boxter1971's suggestion.
You live in Loudoun County, which is about as close to Sun Motor Cars Sprinter as you can get, and still live in
Maryland.
I live/work all the way at the southern end of the western shore of the Chesapeake Bay and it's 183 miles each
way to Sun Motor Cars Sprinter.
But it's worth the extra driving and overnight motel bills to get the full reliability from my Sprinter.
Maybe I'm just lucky, but I have ~ 650,000 miles driving Sprinters as my only powered vehicle/daily driver, and I
tend to put on the miles (My 2014, new in Sept. 2013 now has 203,000 miles) and Sun Motor Cars is the only
authorized Mercedes Benz Sprinter Dealer to ever touch any of my NCV3 Sprinters.
As suggested, Sun Motor Cars Sprinter is the best there is in the Mid Atlantic Region.
I wish we had some independent shops (like Dennis's LinDen Engineering in Golden, CO) but we don't.
With only 19,000 miles, you are still under warranty, so continuing to have authorized Mercedes Benz Dealers do
your services and warranty work (except for oil changes, all work performed on your Sprinter RV up to this point
should have been paid for by your warranty.
Do you have a 4 cylinder (2.143 liter OM-651) or the 3.0 liter V6.
Some of your issues may be the fact that your RV doesn't get a lot of use between your longer trips.
So, drive it to work once a week or drive it everywhere on the weekends, just to keep all the systems operating
correctly.
Also, if you have the V6/5G-Tronic/NAG-1 5 sped transmission, there are several things that you can change in the
way that your drive your RV to improve the reliability of the emissions systems for your longer trips.
Changing the way you drive your RV, and putting some local miles on it to keep everything working well won't cost
you anything really, and it will go along way toward restoring your ability to trust your Sprinter for the longer trips.
As Dennis suggests, you really can't simply take it somewhere else (besides Authorized Mercedes Benz Sprinter dealers)
because then you will have to pay for everything out of pocket when MB VANS USA should be repairing it under the new
vehicle warranty or the 100 k emissions warranty.
Also remember, if a repair is made and parts are replaced under the warranty, by an authorized MB Sprinter dealer the parts
(and possibly the labor as well) are covered by a 2 year warranty on the parts that have been replaced so if the issue recurs,
MB should warranty the repairs and parts that were originally replaced.
Hope this helps,
Roger
 
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glasseye

Well-known member
As a post script to this:-
Toyota and Lexus with Scion are the zen masters .
No pi$$ing about, simple functional and easy to use, pay the subscription and You get it all!
No wonder then Toyota is the best worldwide in product and ability
Dennis
That does it. I’m getting a Coaster. :rad: :bow::bounce:
 
You did not mention which MB shop is working on your van. I live not far from you in Howard Country, Maryland. I can tell you from personal experience there are some Mercedes dealers in the greater WashDC/Baltimore area that do VERY POOR work on Sprinters.

I my view and experience you have two choices. The best dealer for Sprinter service in the Mid-Atlantic area in Sun Motors in Mechanicsburg, PA. A lot of us in the area go to this dealer after a local MB dealer messed up our Sprinters. If your Sprinter is disabled they will send their flatbed trailer to haul it into their shop. I had them service my Sprinter from 2013-2016.
https://www.mercedes.sunmotorcars.com/

The second best option in my experience is American Sprinter Sales, a Freightliner Sprinter dealer, in Annapolis, MD. Their rates are a bit higher than Sun Motors, but they also know Sprinters. I've had them service and fix my Sprinter for the last few years when I got tired of driving to Sun Motors.
http://www.annapolis.ftlvansdealer.com/
Thank you, Boxster. That's good info. I purposefully did not mention the local dealership's name because I didn't want to turn this into a local dealership flame war. Suffice to say you are exactly right: dealers in the WashDC metro area do very poor work (not limited to MB dealers). I will give Sun Motors a try. Do you have a specific point of contact or reference there?
 

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