Black smoke after engine rebuild t1n. 313cdi

owner

Oz '03 316CDI LWB ex-Ambo Patient Transport
Whenever this "black smoke after injector removal" issue occurs, it is almost always caused by incorrect fitment. The height of the injector in the combustion chamber is critical. If I were you I would re-install with the MB supplied washers. At least then you can rule that out once and for all.
 
Whenever this "black smoke after injector removal" issue occurs, it is almost always caused by incorrect fitment. The height of the injector in the combustion chamber is critical. If I were you I would re-install with the MB supplied washers. At least then you can rule that out once and for all.
ok, i will try the thinner ones first then move on to the 2mm if they dont seal properly. the seats have been recut a few times now so it may be that i heading towards 2mm for the perfect fit anyway.
 

NORTON

Member
In WIS document no, ar07.16-d-1000a
Car eng. Eu3. 611 981 as of 446355
611 987 445784
612 981. 445787
Truck Euro 3. 611 891. 498370
611 987. 498370
612 981. 499019
If the injectors are replaced they must be always classified and the sequence marked for refitting
 
my engine is an early 313 cdi (2001) with the vac actuated turbo. so its a 611 981 as listed but what does the second number you gave refer to?

my engine number is 61198150421154

VIN is WDB9036132R311769

number plate (UK) . is wv51pzf
 

NORTON

Member
It was under the heading Remove and replace injectors
Doesn't say specifically but I assume they are referring to the last 6 digits of the engine number
Should have read Truck Euro 3 611 981 498370
 

owner

Oz '03 316CDI LWB ex-Ambo Patient Transport
Thats for Euro3 rated vehicles. I know here in oz our sprinters of that era are rated euro2 and are controlled by a CDI2 ecu, and they dont have injector classification requirements. I also know the same era om612 engine in my ml270 does need classification, because it is CDI2.5 and it has EGR, MAF and cats (still vacuum controlled turbo though). I think this is still Euro2 rated, but because its not a commercial vehicle it has different rules?

If your sprinter is like ours of that era, without EGR MAF and cats then I would say yours also doesnt support classification of injectors.

Whenbyou said the injector seats have been re-cut a few times, how much material has been removed? This could be why you got smoke. Usually you only recut if there is damage to the seat. Usually just a light scuff with emry is enough to clean the seat.
 
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My sprinter has no CAT. No EGR valve No DPF and only a MAP sensor as far as I can tell.

Van had the black death when I got it. I recut 2 seats. All seats were recut on engine rebuild I think. It won't be more than 0.5mm total tho I would have thought. Of course I don't know what had happend before I got the van. It allready had 2 replacement injectors before I got it.


Does anyone have a measurement of what the injector cavity should be on these engines from the factory. (before seats are recut in any way) . I could measure my injector cavity's with the drop gauge on the vernier
 

220629

Well-known member
Injector classify operation.

A recent thread got me thinking about the reasons behind needing to classify injectors. [Emissions regulations related.]

...
Added:
This comment by Owner somewhat supports the emissions factor for injector classify.

Thanks to Owner for the input. :thumbup:

Thats for Euro3 rated vehicles. I know here in oz our sprinters of that era are rated euro2 and are controlled by a CDI2 ecu, and they dont have injector classification requirements. I also know the same era om612 engine in my ml270 does need classification, because it is CDI2.5 and it has EGR, MAF and cats (still vacuum controlled turbo though). I think this is still Euro2 rated, but because its not a commercial vehicle it has different rules?

If your sprinter is like ours of that era, without EGR MAF and cats then I would say yours also doesnt support classification of injectors.

Whenbyou said the injector seats have been re-cut a few times, how much material has been removed? This could be why you got smoke. Usually you only recut if there is damage to the seat. Usually just a light scuff with emry is enough to clean the seat.
As to seat prep before injector installation.

A Sprinter tech I know uses a short bristle brass cup brush to clean the seats. He only uses abrasives if the seat appears damaged. I don't know where he obtained the small cup brush.

vic
 
got my injector tests back and its not good news (although it does seem like i may have got to the bottom of the problem)

Injectors 2 and 4 are ovefueling, 4 by quite a lot. i was guessing 4 might be a problem as it was most carbonised. injectors 1 and 3 have a different product number and might not be 100% compatible. i need to get the full info on this and check when i go to pick up the new ones tomorrow (these are the 2 that have been previously been replaced.) number 3 was the latest recon one fitted when the engine was rebuilt. number 2 is leaking off a bit much.

they can do 4 genuine recon units from bosch for £145 each seems like a lot of money but this has been going on for too long now and i want peace of mind with this van now.
 

Nautamaran

2004 140” HRC 2500 (Crewed)
Sorry/glad to hear that.

I don’t know the seat depth, but if you can’t get an answer you could measure all four then compensate for any deeper outliers with the thicker Honda seal washers?

-dave
 

lindenengineering

Well-known member
got my injector tests back and its not good news (although it does seem like i may have got to the bottom of the problem)

Injectors 2 and 4 are ovefueling, 4 by quite a lot. i was guessing 4 might be a problem as it was most carbonised. injectors 1 and 3 have a different product number and might not be 100% compatible. i need to get the full info on this and check when i go to pick up the new ones tomorrow (these are the 2 that have been previously been replaced.) number 3 was the latest recon one fitted when the engine was rebuilt. number 2 is leaking off a bit much.

they can do 4 genuine recon units from bosch for £145 each seems like a lot of money but this has been going on for too long now and i want peace of mind with this van now.
145 quid a pop is cheap ($188) compared with the price on this side in US dollars . Retailing at $350 or $270 quid a pop.
Dennis
 

owner

Oz '03 316CDI LWB ex-Ambo Patient Transport
Yeah and at AUD $500 downunder you are paying half what we pay. The seats and washers are probably fine. They were only suspect because your injectors were supposedly good. But now that they are known bad than that will be the cause of your smoke, not the seats.
 
Yeah and at AUD $500 downunder you are paying half what we pay. The seats and washers are probably fine. They were only suspect because your injectors were supposedly good. But now that they are known bad than that will be the cause of your smoke, not the seats.
Yeah that's something at least. Will fit them tomorrow and see how it goes. Company I got them from in Exeter called electro diesel seemed well sorted and were very helpful. Didn't charge me for the testing in the end either so I paid £80 less than expected.

Will probly do another compression test and fit a new set of plugs too just just for the hell of it. Want to put this engine away for a bit now. It's taken all my spare time. And all my money for about 2 months now. Just hope the overfueling hasn't done any dammage. Injector tips on the set that's just come out were looking well mankey and black considering they had only done 500 miles. Last thing I want is another cooked piston to start this whole thing off again!

Thanks again for all the help with this. Fingers crossed she'll be up and running with a new ticket by the end of next week
 
so.....

got a fairly vague confirmation from both Mercedes and Bosch that the full set of recon injectors i was sent would be suitable for my engine (even though none of the codes matched anything that had come out!) seems like injector info on these early 313s is a bit of a minefield and some important information has been lost in the mists of time through multiple superseeded designs and changes in numbering systems.

injectors went in lovely. measured all seat depths and because they were only 0.15mm out at most went for a full set of the thicker honda washers assuming they had all had their fair share of seat cutting in the past. used the proper febi ceramic grease this time so should be fine to come out again if needs be.

Did a full compression test and got 400 to 405 psi on a cold start across the pots so happy with that.

replaced all glowplugs as i was in there anyway and mysteriously got rid of my glowplug fault code on pot 4 (even though glowplug 4 tested fine in all tests including current draw and resistance) another win!

Fired her up and sounded lovely. much smoother at idle and no smoke. revved up at standing and the pickup seemed much faster than before still no smoke

Pu it all back together and took for a quick spin on a flat road and a steep hill and its soooo smooth and pulling like a train. totally transformed. its never felt like this since i had it it. it was dark by then so will check for smoke in my side mirror while driving tomorrow but from the feel of it this one can be put to bed.

never realised how fast this van was supposed to be! only driven older 308s and 310s before and was happy enough because it was faster than that but this is another level! Going to have to try and pirk my brakes up a bit now but thats another story....

Thanks for everyones input on this this. glad to have it sorted at last
 

lindenengineering

Well-known member
so.....

got a fairly vague confirmation from both Mercedes and Bosch that the full set of recon injectors i was sent would be suitable for my engine (even though none of the codes matched anything that had come out!) seems like injector info on these early 313s is a bit of a minefield and some important information has been lost in the mists of time through multiple superseeded designs and changes in numbering systems.

injectors went in lovely. measured all seat depths and because they were only 0.15mm out at most went for a full set of the thicker honda washers assuming they had all had their fair share of seat cutting in the past. used the proper febi ceramic grease this time so should be fine to come out again if needs be.

Did a full compression test and got 400 to 405 psi on a cold start across the pots so happy with that.

replaced all glowplugs as i was in there anyway and mysteriously got rid of my glowplug fault code on pot 4 (even though glowplug 4 tested fine in all tests including current draw and resistance) another win!

Fired her up and sounded lovely. much smoother at idle and no smoke. revved up at standing and the pickup seemed much faster than before still no smoke

Pu it all back together and took for a quick spin on a flat road and a steep hill and its soooo smooth and pulling like a train. totally transformed. its never felt like this since i had it it. it was dark by then so will check for smoke in my side mirror while driving tomorrow but from the feel of it this one can be put to bed.

never realised how fast this van was supposed to be! only driven older 308s and 310s before and was happy enough because it was faster than that but this is another level! Going to have to try and pirk my brakes up a bit now but thats another story....

Thanks for everyones input on this this. glad to have it sorted at last

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3YmMNpbFjp0
Dennis:thumbup::thumbup:
 
Yep. Fingers crossed for MOT but I'm assuming it will be fine. Whole things in pretty good nick now really as nearly everything has broken or warn out in the last 2 years and been replaced (got to look on the bright side)

Well happy with performance now anyway. My advice to anyone with an older CDI is that if you are not totally sure of the performance and the history of the van is to pull the injectors, make sure they are the right ones using a Bosch or Merc engineer (this is more easily said than done) and get them tested properly at a Bosch service centre.
If u need to replace any then buy direct from Bosch service centre only. Two two "new" recon injectors I had were out of spec allready. One after less than 10k and one after 500 miles. One was from a local independent diesel specialist and one was from eBay. (Neither were significantly cheaper than the official Bosch one)
discussed this with the Bosch engineers and he said that "new" recon bosch injectors from independent sources often fail to be up to spec on the test rig straight out of the box! Bad news for performance, fuel economy, smoke and risking further engine dammage.
 

Patrick of M

2005 T1N 2500 (NA spec)
Great news re engine. On another note, with your MOT Ccoming up, I don’t know about the older Sprinters, but on my 2005 the handbrake performance is marginal at best. Tune it to within a hair of binding for the test.
 
Yup. Handbrakes a real pain on this one too. Had to replace whole lot, cable, drums, shoes and linkage to get it through last mot so should be fine now. Might give it a little tweak for good luck
 

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