Stuck in the desert - sudden power loss - piston damage

surlyoldbill

Well-known member
Re: Stuck in the desert - sudden power loss

I believe drop-in rebuilds start around $8k installed, but prices may have gone up/down since I read that.

Sorry to hear about your expensive trip!
 

smiller

2008 View J (2007 NCV3 3500)
Re: Stuck in the desert - sudden power loss

Oh man, that sucks. I presume a 'blown cylinder' means no compression/holed piston, or ?

Your mechanic undoubtedly already knows this but given the low miles I'd make sure that there wasn't some contributing cause such as a lean injector or somesuch. I'm sure they'll check that out.
 

vanski

If it’s winter, I’m probably skiing..
Re: Stuck in the desert - sudden power loss

Then, after spending the last half of the night in their driveway, Anotolli arrived, took a quick look and gave me the bad news - piston blown in the #5 cylinder. He was shocked that this happened in a Sprinter with only about 50,000 miles and said he sees blown cylinders all the time, but usually on vehicles with more than 200,000 miles on them.

He quoted me a price of $5,000 to rebuild the engine. He said I was welcome to try and find a used engine, but I trust him and will probably just tell him to get started.
Another #5 bites the dust. Same for me and many others. FYI - my head showed signs of over heating and needed to be replaced. And not from going to 250, but from running at 225 often in the summer and since it wasn't in the red I thought all was well. Not the case!!!! I'm sure he'll look over the head. Perhaps come back around with his understanding of what the root cause was. Many times it's a stuck open injector, but why #5 for so many folks then??

As another data point - I got mine rebuilt for $2,300 which included a used but pressure tested head. This was by some "junk yard sprinter mechanics" who spoke broken English (Easter Europeans) and I had to bring white sauce pepperoni pizzas to get them to get going on it. I watched over the actual engine rebuild and their 'master mechanic' was meticulous with that part of job but I paid the price with some other kids who got on the job following him and didn't properly put the injectors back in (3/5 injectors start leaking and I needed to R&R myself).

$5K for a guy who comes recommended sounds like money well spent to me after having gone through this..

Probably worth replacing the water pump while he's in there..
 

cacaw

Well-known member
Re: Stuck in the desert - sudden power loss

Another #5 bites the dust. ...
I wonder what's different about the #5 cylinder - maybe not cooled as effectively as the rest?

The overheating aspect has me interested because our last few trips have been up through the Mojave desert on 100-110º days. I always figured that I was okay as long as I was keeping the needle well out of the red, but one of the problems with the Winnebago/Sprinter motorhomes is that they are at maximum capacity for the engine.

$5K for a guy who comes recommended sounds like money well spent to me after having gone through this..

Probably worth replacing the water pump while he's in there..
I greatly appreciate this information since I know next to nothing about this stuff. Right now I'm trying to figure out how to make sure we have a clear agreement on what a "rebuild" consists of. I'm not looking for a legally tight contract that I can take into court, just trying to avoid misunderstandings. I guess I'm mostly concerned about things like the water pump, where I would gladly spend the extra money to avoid running into the same problem again.
 
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vanski

If it’s winter, I’m probably skiing..
Re: Stuck in the desert - sudden power loss

I wonder what's different about the #5 cylinder - maybe not cooled as effectively as the rest?
I think I recall someone who knows more than I stating it could do with oil application, but I really don't know. And this is just my observations after having blown my #5 and seeing lots of other folks who had blown a hole in their #5. It would be nice to hear from a professional why #5 blows more often than other cylinders. Or perhaps it doesn't and I'm just :crazy:

The overheating aspect has me interested because our last few trips have been up through the Mojave desert on 100-110º days. I always figured that I was okay as long as I was keeping the needle well out of the red, but one of the problems with the Winnebago/Sprinter motorhomes is that they are at maximum capacity for the engine.
That's what I thought too... I rarely go over 215 now and that's only if I don't catch it!
 

vanski

If it’s winter, I’m probably skiing..
Re: Stuck in the desert - sudden power loss

Here are the pics of my #5 piston.. Wonder what yours will look like??

Makes a great paper weight now!!!
 

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220629

Well-known member
Re: Stuck in the desert - sudden power loss

That is a nice 3 page overview.

Failure analysis is quite involved.

A Google search found some other articles. There are many more hits too.

Premature failures in pistons, piston rings, cylinder liners, bearings and bushings
http://engineaction.com/FailureManual.pdf

Failure Analysis
http://dfcdiesel.com/warranty-info/failure-analysis/

Piston Crowns Failure Analysis
https://highwayandheavyparts.com/n-12634-piston-crowns-failure-analysis.html

The VW bug engines would often "suck a valve" on #3 cylinder. The general consensus was that the failures were related to not keeping valve lash properly adjusted and the fact that the air over oil cooler blocked some of the cooling air flow to #3 cylinder. If the I5 #5 cylinder problem is a common failure then it could relate to cooling.

That said, a hole in the piston crown can also be related to injector fueling issues. I don't pretend to be able to analyze diesel piston failures.

vic
 

Darolh

New member
Re: Stuck in the desert - sudden power loss

That is a nice 3 page overview.

Failure analysis is quite involved.

A Google search found some other articles. There are many more hits too.

Premature failures in pistons, piston rings, cylinder liners, bearings and bushings
http://engineaction.com/FailureManual.pdf

Failure Analysis
http://dfcdiesel.com/warranty-info/failure-analysis/

Piston Crowns Failure Analysis
https://highwayandheavyparts.com/n-12634-piston-crowns-failure-analysis.html

The VW bug engines would often "suck a valve" on #3 cylinder. The general consensus was that the failures were related to not keeping valve lash properly adjusted and the fact that the air over oil cooler blocked some of the cooling air flow to #3 cylinder. If the I5 #5 cylinder problem is a common failure then it could relate to cooling.

That said, a hole in the piston crown can also be related to injector fueling issues. I don't pretend to be able to analyze diesel piston failures.

vic
The #3 cylinder valve failure on air cooled VWs was due to the location of the oil cooler. It caused the #3 cylinder to run hotter as it restricted the air flow to that part of the engine. Regular valve lash checks/adjustment could detect the stretching of the #3 exhaust valve before it broke and made a mess. I used to work at a VW shop many hears ago and we would use this as the indicator that it was time for an engine rebuild. We would warn the owner the big bang was impending and if they listened to us, they paid less for a rebuild. If they didn't, they'd almost certainly end up buying a cylinder head in addition to the rebuild.
 

smiller

2008 View J (2007 NCV3 3500)
Re: Stuck in the desert - sudden power loss

I will probably get flak for this (as in 'prove it!') but failures such as these are one reason to downshift under heavy sustained loads and not run the engine at 100% load for extended periods. Not that that practice in itself will always prevent problems, but it may generate less stress in a perhaps already marginal condition.

I have no data. Except...
 

calbiker

Well-known member
Re: Stuck in the desert - sudden power loss

Let's not blame it on the driver. It's supposed to be an automatic transmission. Mercedes programmed the shift points.

What we see as 100% load may be only 80% of the *real* max engine load. The engine should be able to run all day at our 100% load.

Seems to me that a mechanical failure or design error burnt the hole in the piston.
 

smiller

2008 View J (2007 NCV3 3500)
Re: Stuck in the desert - sudden power loss

Let's not blame it on the driver.
Just to be clear I wasn't meaning to blame it on the driver at all. Since we don't know what caused the failure there's no way to say whether any other behavior would have made a difference any more than one can say whether a specific hurricane has anything to do with global warming. I only meant to say what I said, that it might be a good idea to avoid sustained maximum loads in an attempt to lower the probability of these types of failures, nothing more, and certainly not that the driver caused the failure.


.
 
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cacaw

Well-known member
Re: Stuck in the desert - sudden power loss

Just to be clear I wasn't meaning to blame it on the driver at all. ...
If it meant knowing what caused the problem, I'd be happy to take the blame. :)

My gut tells me there's something to what you're saying. Our 2006 3500 has been built up with a huge Winnebago coach section that puts the load close to the maximum capacity of the Sprinter drivetrain.

Add extremely hot temperatures, sustained traveling at high load, and perhaps a couple gremlins in the engine compartment, and even a generally dependable vehicle will show its weak points. I have a strong belief in the reliability of the five cylinder Sprinters.
 
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220629

Well-known member
Moved from Leak Off Sticky to keep that more on topic.

I recently blew a hole in my #5 piston after only 50,000 miles and everything I've read indicates that it's probably due to improperly burnt fuel overheating a small part of the piston head.

This stuff is beyond my pay grade so please go easy on me, but could it be related to a bad injector?
It's beyond my pay grade too.

Based upon my post here:

https://sprinter-source.com/forum/showthread.php?p=587430#post587430

I believe some of the pictures in the provided links convinced me that your failure could have been related to a bad injector.

To answer your question.
... but could it be related to a bad injector?
Yes. I believe it *could*.

Now that the bad injector piston failure possibility is highlighted in this Sticky, please take further discussion back to your original thread here:
https://sprinter-source.com/forum/showthread.php?t=59337

Thanks.
vic
I didn't see your photos, but its possible.

Cooling system problems can cause odd piston failures. An inspection of the removed piston would be required.

The good news is that if the damage is limited to the piston, the engine can likely be salvaged with moderate cost.
Have you had the injector inspected by a certified bosch shop? I also blew my #5 but the injector tested better than any of the others... :idunno:
 
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ashe350

Member
Re: Stuck in the desert - sudden power loss

I asked Dr. A about engine temps the other day. Told him that on long mountain grades I watched my ScanGauge climb to 230 and then steady out at 235 regularly. He said that's nothing to worry about.

06 Winnebago View, 05 Sprinter 3500
 

vanski

If it’s winter, I’m probably skiing..
Re: Stuck in the desert - sudden power loss

I asked Dr. A about engine temps the other day. Told him that on long mountain grades I watched my ScanGauge climb to 230 and then steady out at 235 regularly. He said that's nothing to worry about.

06 Winnebago View, 05 Sprinter 3500
I’ll respectfully disagree with the Dr.. At least the ‘regularly’ part. Occasionally, as in a dozen times per year, sure.... At least this is what I found following my piston failure when I did a ton of research and noticed corollaries between over heating (but not into the red).

In the west where temps regularly go into the 100s in the summer months you can watch threads on the forum start to pop up where failures related to overheating such as piston failure occur. Sure there is debate as to whether the piston failure is due to over heating compared to something like a stuck open injector, but one thing I’ve noticed is more often these piston failures are happening for folks out west..... :hmmm: and in the summer months :hmmm: And from what I’ve seen they aren’t pushing into the red.. they are just regularly operating around 225 for hours on end in the heat.

I took a deep dive into the cooling pack and replaced my viscous fan clutch, serp belt, different pullys, belt tensioner, etc and on a hot day I’d have troubles pushing above the 215 line...

Just my :2cents: from going through a catastrophic engine failure and feeling like I fixed the root issue (the related injector in cylinder #5 tested fine).
 

220629

Well-known member
Re: Stuck in the desert - sudden power loss

...

I took a deep dive into the cooling pack and replaced my viscous fan clutch, serp belt, different pullys, belt tensioner, etc and on a hot day I’d have troubles pushing above the 215 line...

Just my :2cents: from going through a catastrophic engine failure and feeling like I fixed the root issue (the related injector in cylinder #5 tested fine).
While towing my 2004 has often crept into the 215F area. I figured that was normal, and may be for that van. Belt is good. I have yet to change out the viscous clutch, thermostat or other parts. Added: A subsequent viscous fan clutch change did grt the 2004 to cool the same as the 2006. My opinion... DON'T BELIEVE THAT REGULAR EXCURSIONS UP TO 230F ARE "NORMAL".

My 2006 has been running much cooler when towing. The 2006 engine fan more readily roars than does the 2004.

My 2006 has changed my expectations as to what the engine temperature can be while towing. The 2006 rarely approaches 215F, but has on rare occasions.

I'd not be happy with temps approaching 230F, but I don't drive an RV conversion.

:cheers: vic
 
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OldWest

2004 T1N Westfalia
Thought I read somewhere on this forum that engine temp readings do not reflect the temps everywhere in the engine.

So a poorly operating cooling system may have good engine temps on the dashboard gauge while certain areas of engjne are overheating where coolant is not circulating as well.

https://sprinter-source.com/forum/showpost.php?p=568411&postcount=15

https://sprinter-source.com/forum/showpost.php?p=457297&postcount=7

And is this where piston 5 is?

https://sprinter-source.com/forum/showpost.php?p=502425&postcount=1

https://sprinter-source.com/forum/showthread.php?t=59431&highlight=Piston
 

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