Hydrogen Biodiesel Sprinter...

tegimr

2003 Pass 140 289000 mile
I'm also thinking it is providing oxygen to the diesel burning process. That in and of it's self can be a big boost. I'd expect that the hydrogen only partially burns with the oxygen as the hydrogen has this diesel competitor. Remember air is only 20ish percent oxygen. The unit would be outputting a gss mix that is two parts hydrogen and one part oxygen, or 33% oxygen.
OK - did some research on this:

1. The lye causes a more productive electrolysis of water when heated (electrolysis of water heats the water) to produce the HHO (two parts hydrogen (H2 gas) and one part oxygen (02 gas) by volume). If you recall the statements of tymbo, he reminded us that the [simple] electrolysis of water produces less energy in a hydrogen/oxygen burning reaction than the energy required to break the bonds. In this device, they've added NaOH, which makes for a more productive electrolysis than simple electrolysis and remains unchanged during the electrolysis.

2. Though HHO in correct proportion and in a great concentration produces an incredible energy release, this energy release is not what is creating the efficiency.
  • Air volume too great in comparison to the HHO produced by this device - the mixture of the HHO produced by this machine when combined with the air from the intake is not enough concentration to see the HHO become H2O.
  • Hydrogen-Hydrogen bonds are harder to break than hydrogen-carbon bonds; and in the absence of a spark, the hydrocarbons will burn first in this dilute mixture of gases and petroleum.
  • The technical help desk from this site claims that the device only makes the fuel burn more efficient.
    Re: Ticket 2713, Responded

    Dear Tim Rich

    A new message has been added to the service request #2713.
    Hello Tim,
    The HHO makes the fuel burn more efficient.
    Thanks
    John

    You can view and update your inquiry here:
    Ticket 2713 http://savefuel.ca/support/ttx.cgi?cmd=ticket&key=2713Z2942242176889255246
    ACCESS KEY: 2713Z2942242176889255246

Consider that our natural environment atmosphere contains hydrogen and oxygen. If the hydrogen was easily excitable to bond with oxygen every time that there was a fire (think camp fires, propane/natural gas stoves, industrial fuel consumption, forest fires, prairie fires, etc.) then we'd have the vocal environmentally concerned crowd include a decreased hydrogen content of the atmosphere in their reasons to not burn fossil fuels. We live in a balanced, safe natural world that is governed by a set of natural laws to maintain a safe, balanced, natural environment for us. If hydrogen were easily combined with oxygen, we'd have consumed all the hydrogen LONG ago. Its hard to for me think that the world we live in just happened without design. It's just too balanced.

I think that the inventor of this device stumbled on something without understanding the science that is involved.
I'm still concerned about the installation/operational issues with this device.

  • The device should only start on engine RUNNING and should stop before the engine stops to clear all concentrations of HHO for maximum safety. I'm thinking that somebody may leave the key on (kids to listen to the radio, etc.) and build up a concentration that would be enough to cause damage to people and property.
  • The plastics in the intake system where this device is connected should be expected to have decreased life, especially if the device builds up concentrations when the engine is not running. Concentrated amounts of hydrogen can cause early failure of plastic parts.

I'd still like to hear about others who've installed or had friends install these in their vehicles. Doing the math, I can't afford to install one to save fuel - as much as I drive, I don't drive enough to pay back in less than 2 years at today's prices ( especially since I'm producing more and more bio-diesel from WVO and should be free from the pump by the end of the year - except for long trips). My neighbor manages a few Sprinters for a company not willing to do bio-diesel and this might be a real benefit to them.

Regards,
Tim
PS - if you are environmentally concerned, don't feel that I've insulted you. A few of my friends think I'm overly concerned about the environment; however, I try to be balanced, prudent, and practical in my actions. It is sometimes amazing the bad science that is foisted onto the un-suspecting public. But that is another subject.
 
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Altered Sprinter

Happy Little Vegemite
In a few short years, many in the future will see a decline in world standards, based on mans greed. What will be! 'Will be',
With this particular site I see no real input or evaluations , I find no real creditability towards the site, to either evaluate or give a scientific back up , there is absolutely nothing.
On the other side of the coin , the principle exists If per say a cheaper version could be made or a Hydrogen conversion kit was to be supplied I would expect a little more than the site was offering.
[A] If the supplier to the site invented it there would be registered copyright and or design patients.
I see no ISO standards
[C] I see no EPA evaluations
out of interest I goggled the first US site that has a similar system for sale
Hydrogen-Boost
At least it offers information


Here is a local site from UTAS Tasmania where I have evaluations to standards certified and or qualified as to in house so called MSDs, safety and vehicle design rules for ADR regulations Australia. Look at this one it's not new
0715HydroDiesel_Engine.pdf (application/pdf Object)
My concern is what damage can this do to a ten grand =Engine and how dangerous is it! if the pressure build on the fuel rails fails ??? way too many unanswered questions, Its relying on a pressure pulse boost, too similar to the principle of a ram jet , and that engine is not designed for it.
My thoughts are purely a safety factor.
Richard
ram-jet.gif

r2.gif

r3.gif
 

Altered Sprinter

Happy Little Vegemite
As I asked previously, how am I to understand (with my limited grasp of chemistry) that HHO is different from H2O? :idunno:
I'll post on Sunday Aussie time To find a more accurate way to explain this in layman's terms, it's not as simple as it looks ,, where I'm stuck is I'm not sure on how this particular unit runs. Unless someone else bothers to simplify it, sort of like a brain teaser
Richard
image3.jpg
 

Altered Sprinter

Happy Little Vegemite
As I asked previously, how am I to understand (with my limited grasp of chemistry) that HHO is different from H2O? :idunno:
Good question ,
One can argue you this two ways in its pure form or by conversion of quantum Physics where the rules change.
HHo--->H2o
One mole of H0 gas forms one mole of H2o Steam due to elevated Temperatures.
essentially its the same element, but changes WITH THE INTRODUCTION OF thermo dynamics, when H-0-H is liquid the new specie is HxH-0 Gas What you have is the question of what it is and how CAN IT WORK
IT'S NOT PURE HYDROGEN AS SUCH OR YOU WOULD NOT REQUIRE THE fuel OF EITHER GAS OR DIESEL, BUT THE GAS CONVERSION UNDER PRESSURE AND TEMPERATURE CREATES THE GENERATOR TO INCREASE THE FLAME ITS AS OLD AS GREEK FIRE A SOFT COOL BLUE FLAME.
Too MANY VARIABLES TO THE QUESTION AS TO QUANTUM PHYSICS AND THE INTRODUCTION OF THE POWER RATIO OF X=UNKNOWN WITH the Hydrogen BIO DIESEL THREAD.
RICHARD
 
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tegimr

2003 Pass 140 289000 mile
As I asked previously, how am I to understand (with my limited grasp of chemistry) that HHO is different from H2O? :idunno:

H2O is the typically the combined form - water, in one of it's states, while HHO is what some are using to say "two parts H2 and one part O2" - the gas forms of hydrogen and oxygen in the proportion two to one by volume. The difference is the non-combined forms. H and O are 'unstable' when alone. Thus they combine with themselves (H2, O2) when they are separated by electrolysis of water (as well as other ways that oxygen or hydrogen may be liberated from other substances).
 

tegimr

2003 Pass 140 289000 mile
In a few short years, many in the future will see a decline in world standards, based on mans greed. What will be! 'Will be',
With this particular site I see no real input or evaluations , I find no real creditability towards the site, to either evaluate or give a scientific back up , there is absolutely nothing.
On the other side of the coin , the principle exists If per say a cheaper version could be made or a Hydrogen conversion kit was to be supplied I would expect a little more than the site was offering.

indeed - and the site lists several inaccuracies - impossibilities. Thus, if the device works (as our member says it does) the inventor may have stumbled on something good.

[A] If the supplier to the site invented it there would be registered copyright and or design patients.
I see no ISO standards
[C] I see no EPA evaluations
out of interest I goggled the first US site that has a similar system for sale
Hydrogen-Boost
At least it offers information
No standards, and evaluations, and sold from Canadian site, so the US EPA; however, some linked documentation says
A recent study at the University of Calgary by G.A. Karim on the effect of adding hydrogen [the remainder of the article says oxygen and hydrogen - HOH] to a methane-fuelled engine says

... What happens inside the combustion chamber is still only a guess.
The article reports boosted performance. Thus, though they found that adding the hydrogen and oxygen to the mix makes a better burn, they don't know what actually is happening.

However, again, the researchers at MIT say
Researchers at the Sloan Automotive Laboratory at MIT also discovered that both hydrogen and carbon monoxide (both products of the partial oxidation process of the reformer) act as octane enhancers.
So, though we're not really concerned about the octane enhancement, the claims to 'boost the octane' should say 'boost octane performance' rather than 'boost the octane'.

Past the actual chemistry, the research(university and otherwise) says that this type of injection to the system can be expected to

Such an ultra-lean-burn, high compression-ratio, turbocharged HECE[Hydrogen enhanced combustion engine] could exhibit the following characteristics:

  • Extremely low engine out NOx emissions requiring little or no exhaust emissions control
  • Reduced pumping losses (~5-10% efficiency gain)
  • Improved thermodynamics (~10-12% efficiency gain)
  • Reduced friction (downsizing) (~5-8% efficiency gain)
. . .
My concern is what damage can this do to a ten grand =Engine and how dangerous is it! if the pressure build on the fuel rails fails ??? way too many unanswered questions, Its relying on a pressure pulse boost, too similar to the principle of a ram jet , and that engine is not designed for it.
My thoughts are purely a safety factor.
Richard
Can't agree with you more; your experience with the engine can't be ignored. And one can't simply ignore the engineering of the engine. Especially when it is unknown 'what happens in the combustion chamber'. I'm glad that mgjessop is willing to take the risk. If after 50,000 miles, he's still happy and has no issues, then maybe some more will be installed for additional 'real-world laboratory' testing.

Safety with the controls - that is, under what conditions the HOH is produced - is a great concern from my experience and perspective. It seems that WHEN one is installed on ANY engine, there should be a minimum of an intake air-flow sensor that turns the system on and off to avoid build-up of explosive gas(hydrogen and oxygen) in a non-running engine regardless of the key position.

If one can install one, as mgjessop has, and overcome the safety concerns with the HOH generation when not needed, and see benefit long term (this is the risk) then we might be able to say this is a good thing. It would be nice to have some of the blanks filled in - answers to the questions of engine temperatures - any available coolant, oil, head, exhaust, etc.- answers about the oil contamination, questions about actual exhaust emission testing, and any other information available. It would also be interesting to see a separation of the oxygen from the hydrogen - each being introduced to the combustion process independently - to see which produces more effect - but then again I'm a very curious person. :bounce: I'd like to look and ponder over some of that kind of information.

Regards,
Tim
 

mgjessop

New member
UPDATE...

I have put 3200 miles with the Hydrogen Kit on so far... I keep a log of the miles I drive and my MPG... I drive the same route for my business so the average is always about the same give or take 1-2%...

3200 miles WITHOUT the system I used 135 gallons... 23.7mpg average

3200 miles WITH the system I used 122.6 gallons... 26.1mpg average

135.0 gal
-122.6 gal
----------------
12.4 gallons saved...

12.4 gal x $3.14gal = $38.93 savings
9% fuel savings....

The bottom line is this unit is saving me about $80 a month...
The fuel saving is 9% so far, nothing huge but it is a savings...
I am going close to 700miles on a tank wich I was never able to do before...

Also the unit only works while the engine is running and it shuts off when you turn the engine on... It will not work unless the engine running... So there is no safty issue what so ever... The engine temp stays the same I not see any change what so ever. As for the exhaust temps, I don't know... The oil seems to be the same change time of about 17,000miles...

I will say this... The unit does not give you the 20-40% increase in mpg that alot of people claim... It does give that 8-10% in real world driving... If you don't drive over 40,000 miles a year, this unit would be hard to justify... But if you dirve alot if is worth it... I will keep you posted as the miles rack up... We will see if the savings get's better or worse...
 
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jdcaples

Not Suitable w/220v Gen
I'm also thinking it is providing oxygen to the diesel burning process. That in and of it's self can be a big boost. I'd expect that the hydrogen only partially burns with the oxygen as the hydrogen has this diesel competitor. Remember air is only 20ish percent oxygen. The unit would be outputting a gss mix that is two parts hydrogen and one part oxygen, or 33% oxygen.
mgjessop, BMA,

Thanks for this thread. I've been mulling over BMA's comment about embellishing the oxygen available for combustion. I read something about this a while ago, but I didn't keep it. After several days' searching, trying to recall... I found it.

From Argonne National Laboratory "Reducing Diesel Soot by using Late Cycle Oxygen Enrichment

The trick is to reduce soot emissions in heavy-duty and light-duty diesel engines without increasing the formation of nitrogen oxides (NOx), a precursor to ozone that contributes significantly to smog. Argonne's approach is late-cycle auxiliary gas injection (AGI), which adds air or oxygen-enriched air. A high-velocity air stream from the air injector provides turbulent mixing of the combustion by-products. Increasing the oxygen concentration further enhances soot oxidation and helps burn up the soot particles as they form. Because NOx is formed early in the combustion cycle, adding air or oxygen-enriched air late in the cycle does not increase NOx.

Argonne's work focuses on modifying the in-cylinder air composition by adding oxygen-enriched air directly into the combustion chamber during the late stages of the combustion cycle. Specific projects include

Developing KIVA-3 computer simulations to help optimize the AGI and fuel parameters Setting up a single-cycle diesel engine test stand and conducting late-cycle oxygen enrichment experiments

A test matrix for computer simulations was developed, and parametric test results were obtained by using a central gas injector location. Simulation results indicate the following:

- AGI is effective in reducing soot.
- The duration of the AGI has little effect on soot formation.
- Late-cycle AGI does not significantly alter the amount of NOx emissions.
- Varying the AGI composition has little effect on soot oxidation, which suggests the mixing caused by AGI is the dominant mechanism that affects engine-out soot emissions.



I don't know if I understand all of this chemistry, or even Argonne's description of their efforts because it seemed self-contradictory in a couple of places...

Still, I'd like to know, am I correct in my interpretation: Argonne and mgjessop's Hydrogen Boost contraption are both aiming to achieve a more complete burn and reduce diesel combustion by-products, namely soot and NOx?



-Jon
 
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mgjessop

New member
I got up under to take a look at my exhaust pipe to see if still looked like it use to... I would normally have a layer of dark soot in the pipe... There still is soot but is much lighter in color?:thinking: It is not that deep, reck your white clothes black soot... I am not sure if this is a good sign or not? I do know that no matter how hard I punch it, there is no smoke what so ever coming out of my pipes...:D
 

jdcaples

Not Suitable w/220v Gen
I got up under to take a look at my exhaust pipe to see if still looked like it use to... I would normally have a layer of dark soot in the pipe... There still is soot but is much lighter in color?:thinking: It is not that deep, reck your white clothes black soot... I am not sure if this is a good sign or not? I do know that no matter how hard I punch it, there is no smoke what so ever coming out of my pipes...:D
Thanks. I think your gizmo might validate Argonne's notions and simulation-runs.

-Jon
 

BMA

New member
From Argonne National Laboratory "Reducing Diesel Soot by using Late Cycle Oxygen Enrichment

The trick is to reduce soot emissions in heavy-duty and light-duty diesel engines without increasing the formation of nitrogen oxides (NOx), a precursor to ozone that contributes significantly to smog. Argonne's approach is late-cycle auxiliary gas injection (AGI), which adds air or oxygen-enriched air. A high-velocity air stream from the air injector provides turbulent mixing of the combustion by-products. Increasing the oxygen concentration further enhances soot oxidation and helps burn up the soot particles as they form. Because NOx is formed early in the combustion cycle, adding air or oxygen-enriched air late in the cycle does not increase NOx.

Argonne's work focuses on modifying the in-cylinder air composition by adding oxygen-enriched air directly into the combustion chamber during the late stages of the combustion cycle. Specific projects include


This is a big difference from what the hydrogen producer is doing. Argonne Labs is using a modified engine where they inject enriched air into the cylinder after part? or all? of the burn has completed. The hydrogen/oxygen gas producer is adding it's mixture to the standard incoming air supply and replaces some of the normal incoming air. Sounds like there may be an increased NOx production from doing that.

- Bryan
 

tegimr

2003 Pass 140 289000 mile
. . . The hydrogen/oxygen gas producer is adding it's mixture to the standard incoming air supply and replaces some of the normal incoming air. Sounds like there may be an increased NOx production from doing that.

- Bryan
Sounds like it would be good to have emissions testing with/without the device running. Jon - are there still mechanics who have the equipment on that side of the mountains (been more than 20 years since I lived there)? I'm considering purchasing one along with a farmer friend of mine who likes to dabble in these types of things and I'd want to test on both ends (and I'd be testing the questions I've asked - temperatures, etc. as much as possible.)

Tim
 

jdcaples

Not Suitable w/220v Gen
Bryan, my reading comprehension could use some polishing. I get it now, though. Thanks for clarifying my confusion.

Tim, there are emssions tests required for the following counties:

Clark
King
Pierce
Snohomish
Spokane

State Certified emission specialists - small business/neighborhood SAE mechanics - have the equipment.

I've never considered calling one to see if they'd be willing to charge the nominal hourly rate + materials to evaluate tail pipe contents to promote an experiment; but people don't usually turn away easy money.

Then again, I live in Seattle. :)

-Jon
 

svaric2

Member
I understand what your saying, that is takes more energy to make Hydrogen then what it puts out... I have the 200amp alt on my sprinter... I hooked an amp meter to the Hydrogen Maker and it pulls about 23amps of juice... So I migh be getting power that would normally be lost? If this unit didn't work I would be the first person to say it is :censored: What some people claim on there web site I know can't be true... The unit only makes a certain btu, in order to get the mileage some people are claiming the unit would have to make probably 20 times the amount of hydrogen... I thought that I would be seeing 25-35% better fuel economy at freeway speed... Instead I am seeing around 8-10%... I drive about 200-300miles a day, so any amount helps... The reason why I got this unit was because I have a close friend who is a cross country truck driver... He has 2 large units installed on his rig... His average fuel economy is 4.5mpg... With it turned on he get's 5.0mpg... Doesn't sound like much but it saves him over $7,500 a year in fuel... What we should be asking.. What does hydrogen do the combustion process with diesel?:thinking:


BUMP..................

so you paid ~700 for an sl-25? that's strange.

because i just went to their site (savefuel.ca) and saw no sl-25 unit, instead i saw a $700 sl-50 unit, which produces 50 liters of the gas.
also, they claim the sl-50 draws 7-12 amps, whereas you found your sl-25 system drawing 23 amps. strange.

(maybe they recently upgraded their site, or products, or changed their product line around, i dunno.)

but from what ive read so far in this thread, the sl-25 you have installed gives you a ~10% boost in economy, and you also said the unit is not worth the money unless you drive 40,000 miles a year....

well seeing as you can now buy a sl-50 for the same amount of money you paid for the sl-25, im guessin its worth the money, (double the gas, double the btu's, double the efficiency, ((well not really, but close)) ) for the same amount of money.

id buy it for my dad, (the owner of the sprinter) but i need to convince him its worth it.
and he has a hard head. very hard. :shifty:
 
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jdcaples

Not Suitable w/220v Gen
so is this thing legit or not???????!!!!!!!!!!!!!

reply people!!!!!!!!!!!!!

sorry

I recommend you try to contact mgjessop via private message or email. Click on the username and give it a try.

The user hasn't been active on this board since Sept of 2007, but may (or may not) receive - and/or respond to - a polite request by you for an update.

-Jon
 

mgjessop

New member
Just an Update:

I have about 50k miles with the hydrogen Generator... I have averaged right about 14% fuel saving's... I have saved about 400 Gallons of Bio Diesel or about $1500. A savings of a about $10 a fillup... I have had no engine problems... I am getting on average close to 20k before oil changes.. Normally I would get 15-16K... Everything is awesome... Not one problem with the system... :thumbup:
 

BULBASOR

Active member
It's not possible to seperate hydrogen from the H2O water molecule with the power generated from a Sprinter engine.

There is no "chemical" process to seperate hydrogen from oxygen that does not require more power than it generates.

Hydrogen, like gasoline, packs a lot of power in a very small space, way more than gasoline. Hydrogen is only a means to 'store' energy. Hydrogen as a fuel is no more efficiant or less costly than gasoline, it's just more potent. It takes just as much energy to create either fuel in amounts that create the same amount of thermal BTU's

The only reason Hydrogen is even considered for automobiles is because it can 'store' more energy for electric motors in a smaller space than a battery. When hydrogen is forced through a fuel cell, it must bond with oxygen to get to the other side of the cell, and this generates electricity. The "exhaust" from this bonding is hydrogen and oxygen, (WATER).

Is requires the same amount of power to seperate the atoms in the water molecule as is produced by bonding them. In fact HONDA is offering a hydrogen generator the size of a refrigerator with thier 2010 electric fuel cell ACCORD and guess what the hydrogen generator burns to to create the hydrogen? NATURAL GAS!

In physics that is the law of conservation. Energy to matter - matter to energy you can't "create" energy from nothing.
 

tegimr

2003 Pass 140 289000 mile
It's not possible to seperate hydrogen from the H2O water molecule with the power generated from a Sprinter engine.

There is no "chemical" process to seperate hydrogen from oxygen that does not require more power than it generates.

Hydrogen, like gasoline, packs a lot of power in a very small space, way more than gasoline. Hydrogen is only a means to 'store' energy. Hydrogen as a fuel is no more efficiant or less costly than gasoline, it's just more potent. It takes just as much energy to create either fuel in amounts that create the same amount of thermal BTU's

The only reason Hydrogen is even considered for automobiles is because it can 'store' more energy for electric motors in a smaller space than a battery. When hydrogen is forced through a fuel cell, it must bond with oxygen to get to the other side of the cell, and this generates electricity. The "exhaust" from this bonding is hydrogen and oxygen, (WATER).

Is requires the same amount of power to seperate the atoms in the water molecule as is produced by bonding them. In fact HONDA is offering a hydrogen generator the size of a refrigerator with thier 2010 electric fuel cell ACCORD and guess what the hydrogen generator burns to to create the hydrogen? NATURAL GAS!

In physics that is the law of conservation. Energy to matter - matter to energy you can't "create" energy from nothing.
All that you've stated regarding chemistry and physics is true. There is ample reading material in this thread that points to some understanding that HHO producing devices aid in fuel economy. It is my opinion, (and based on under-funded research) that the benefit comes from increased oxygen content, not from the hydrogen combustion. I KNOW EMPIRICALLY that the devices can increase efficiency. HOWEVER, since the laws of thermodynamics are so well established, I have to come to the conclusion that the sales literature/common perception incorrectly attributes the benefit to the hydrogen combustion.

I'd be very interested in seeing the algorithms for fuel mixture changes based on O2 sensors, but that seems to be part of the black-box secrets that MB (and other manufacturers) don't really let out.

Tim
PS - you can separate hydrogen and oxygen from water with a 9 volt battery - really, quite a bit. I don't suggest using match to test how much - especially inside a building and certainly without safety equipment. Using sodium hydroxide (lye) or similar compounds can increase the efficiency of the separation as the solution becomes warm. A neighbor friend 'made his own' (see my previous comments regarding my sons, and understand that this young man (19 yrs) is looked up to by my sons as being interesting and innovative - I do have fire insurance :eek:) and was shocked at the size of explosion that he got from his 'little 12 volt separator'. He's working on a Darwin award, I think.
 
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