Espar problem

davisdave

2005 140 tall passenger
Does your espar fire and operate in "heater booster" mode with the engine running? The way i understand it, the electric coolant pump does not operate in this mode...ever.
 

Graphite Dave

Dave Orton
Does your espar fire and operate in "heater booster" mode with the engine running? The way i understand it, the electric coolant pump does not operate in this mode...ever.
I will try that tomorrow. If Espar runs with engine running, then that would confirm that Espar is OK. Then it might be the pump or something else. Thanks for your time and effort.
 

Graphite Dave

Dave Orton
Does your espar fire and operate in "heater booster" mode with the engine running? The way i understand it, the electric coolant pump does not operate in this mode...ever.
Thanks. You are correct. Espar ran this morning with engine running. Now I know there is nothing wrong with Espar.

Avanti: I think you are also correct. I should be able to use the existing bastardized Espar and the existing Mercedes firewall pump. I will work on the electrical diagram on Wednesday. There are two unknowns. 1. Will the Sprinter run with Espar cable disconnected? I suspect that it will and I will have Mercedes disconnect it to find out. 2. Will the Espar control work with the bastardized Espar heater? May or may not. Worth a try.
 

davisdave

2005 140 tall passenger
I dont know how the NCV3 system works, but I would suspect the switch or wiring has gone kaput:idunno:

I would get the "run with engine off" switch out and look at the wires. Perhaps the colors and operation are the same as the T1N...

1. black/blue/green dot- 12v signal wire (negligible current)
2. blue- 12v signal wire (negligible current)
3. green/red- 12v turns on coolant pump (about 1A)

If you see these wires, you could remove the plug from the switch and apply 12v to the coolant pump wire and see if you hear it running. If you apply 12v to the other two, the heater should turn on.
 
Please refer to the attached VB [NCV3] Espar Hydronic Heater Manual.

The water circuit is referenced.

Perhaps it will be of some help ...

:thumbup:
Very thoughtful of you to post this. Don't have my '14 van yet (hopefully in 10 days or so), but it is equipped with the Espar, and some of these posts have me a bit apprehensive. That manual may come in handy.....
 

Graphite Dave

Dave Orton
I dont know how the NCV3 system works, but I would suspect the switch or wiring has gone kaput:idunno:

I would get the "run with engine off" switch out and look at the wires. Perhaps the colors and operation are the same as the T1N...

1. black/blue/green dot- 12v signal wire (negligible current)
2. blue- 12v signal wire (negligible current)
3. green/red- 12v turns on coolant pump (about 1A)

If you see these wires, you could remove the plug from the switch and apply 12v to the coolant pump wire and see if you hear it running. If you apply 12v to the other two, the heater should turn on.
After I sent the last post stating that Espar ran with engine running, I went back out and decided to check to see if it would run with engine off. It works both ways today. Also felt the firewall water pump and it was running with the engine off and Espar on. I will continue to test it to see if it fixed itself. Maybe the computer just got confused.
 

wmlog

New member
Maybe you out-foxed the gremlins!

:bow:


... but that still doesn't resolve the issue as to who is going to support/service our bastardized Espar hydronic heaters!

:thinking:
 

Graphite Dave

Dave Orton
Update.

Now I know there is nothing wrong with the Espar portion of the system. The problen is in the Mercedes computer.

Today I will drive to the local Sprinter service location. I will do two things.

1. Disconnect the Sprinter ground at the "gas" pedal. Purpose is to reboot the Mercedes computer. Maybe that will fix it. I am afraid to disconnect anyplace that would require a tow if Sprinter did not start.

2. Present the local service manager with my build "Datacard". I asked Sailquik for a copy of my datacard. Thank you Sailquik. On the data card with the Daimler name at the bottom it shows the build date as 1-31-08. The van was delivered to me by the local Dodge dealer on 3-26-08 with the Espar. The datacard includes option H12 "Hot Water Additional Heater". That should give the local service manager proof that Daimler built the vehicle and it came with the Espar. We will then see if Daimler admits to building the vehicle with the Espar. I also have a copy of the 192 page Dodge "Special Equipment Book" that describes all the available options. Included is the 5 kw "Auxiliary Heater (Water)" option.

If disconnecting the ground does not correct problem and Mercredes still can not repair it, I will then have Mercedes disconnect the 3 electrical connections to the Espar. That will determine if the Sprinter will run with Espar disconnected from Mercedes computer. Rather have them do it so if Sprinter will not run with heater disconnected it is already at the dealer. Then I will drive it with heater disconnected for a month or so to be sure.

If it does run, then I can pursue several options. I will try to convince Rixen Enterprises that there is a market for a kit to make Espar run independently without any Mercedes connections.
 
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GeorgeRa

2013 Sprinter DIY 144WB, Portland OR
Update.

Now I know there is nothing wrong with the Espar portion of the system. The problen is in the Mercedes computer.

Today I will drive to the local Sprinter service location. I will do two things.

1. Disconnect the Sprinter ground at the "gas" pedal. Purpose is to reboot the Mercedes computer. Maybe that will fix it. I am afraid to disconnect anyplace that would require a tow if Sprinter did not start.

2. Present the local service manager with my build "Datacard". I asked Sailquik for a copy of my datacard. Thank you Sailquik. On the data card with the Daimler name at the bottom it shows the build date as 1-31-08. The van was delivered to me by the local Dodge dealer on 3-26-08 with the Espar. The datacard includes option H12 "Hot Water Additional Heater". That should give the local service manager proof that Daimler built the vehicle and it came with the Espar. We will then see if Daimler admits to building the vehicle with the Espar. I also have a copy of the 192 page Dodge "Special Equipment Book" that describes all the available options. Included is the 5 kw "Auxiliary Heater (Water)" option.

If disconnecting the ground does not correct problem and Mercredes still can not repair it, I will then have Mercedes disconnect the 3 electrical connections to the Espar. That will determine if the Sprinter will run with Espar disconnected from Mercedes computer. Rather have them do it so if Sprinter will not run with heater disconnected it is already at the dealer. Then I will drive it with heater disconnected for a month or so to be sure.

If it does run, then I can pursue several options. I will try to convince Rixen Enterprises that there is a market for a kit to make Espar run independently without any Mercedes connections.
Sorry to hear about these problems. This should be a 10 minutes check-up exercise pinpointing the problem. Wow, what a saga, unreal.

I am impressed with Espar D2, it is the first RV heater I had with some brain in it. All my previous RV heaters had pretty much Bang-Bang, on or off control, no variable speed, no proportional gas flow control and very loud.

George.
 

Graphite Dave

Dave Orton
Update:

Did disconnect the ground and thought I had solved the Espar trying to start automatically every time I started vehicle. No light on pushbutton for 4 starts. Just started again and light has returned so disconnecting ground did not solve the problem.

Did take my Datacard to dealer and pointed out the vehicle came with the Espar. Service manager also made a photocopy of the page describing the option in the "Dodge Special Equipment Book" that I have that explains all options available in 08.

He will follow up on the problem.

If they can not fix it then I will pursue the next step which is to disconnect all wires to the Espar to see if the Sprinter will run with the Espar removed from the Mercedes electrical system.

If it does, then I will spend some more effort to see how Espar can be made to run independently still using the engine coolant. Maybe it can be made to run with an Esopar controller. Did turn key to accessary position in Sprinter and determined that the dashboard fan does run without starting the engine. So if I can heat the cooling water then I will be able to heat the van using the existing fan.
 

220629

Well-known member
...

If they can not fix it then I will pursue the next step which is to disconnect all wires to the Espar to see if the Sprinter will run with the Espar removed from the Mercedes electrical system.

...
I didn't go back and review the thread.

Sorry if I'm being too obvious, but doesn't the Espar have a plug connector which can just be disconnected? My T1N ran fine without the heater plugged in FWIW.

Happy hunting.

:cheers: vic

P.S. - I believe it's been mentioned already, but there is no way I would elect to order a OEM Sprinter Espar for a camper. Mother Mercedes takes a perfectly nice heater and changes it to a bastard step-child. I'd explore ordering the Sprinter with an OEM fuel tap though.
 

Graphite Dave

Dave Orton
There are 3 connectors. One is just two wires to the Espar pump. Others?

Next step is unplug all 3 connectors to see if NCV3 Sprinter will run with the 3 disconnected.

Will do that if Mercedes is unable to repair their product.
 

davisdave

2005 140 tall passenger
How hard is it to get the switch out? Perhaps you can look at the wires on the switch and look at the wires at the espar. If you see some that are the same, probe wires when it works. See if any switch 12v on/off. The manual posted in post 23 shows a remote option...i dont see it hooked to the CANbus. It is hooked to a switch with LEDs:thinking: I hate espar wiring diagrams...even worse than mercedes.

sorry for fixating on the switch, just thinking out loud...
 

Graphite Dave

Dave Orton
First see if Mercedes can fix it.

Then I am inclined to just separate it from the Mercedes computer if possible.

I am busy working again so it is not at the top of my priorities.

Thanks for your help.
 

Graphite Dave

Dave Orton
Update:

Mercedes told local dealer that they did not make my 08 Sprinter and do not install Espar heaters.
After finding a new 2014 Sprinter on the dealer's lot with the Espar option and showing it to the local service manager, he was finally convinced that Mercedes does install a Espar as an option.

Local Sprinter service center did fix it (I think)

The first try was to replace the glow plug and combustion fan which they thought was the problem. Cost was approx.$1300.00 for materials and 1/2 the labor. They were fair on the labor charges because it was a "learning experience for them". Then I tried to use it and it still did not work so back for another week to the dealer. This time they replaced the control module for another $685.00. Unfortunately the new module Mercedes supplied was not identical to the original 08 module that did not have the 39 degree temperature limitation. The dealer agreed to accept the part back for no charge if it did not correct the problem. No labor was charged to install the control. I assume they fixed it having replaced most of the parts. Not cold enough for me to test it. I have nothing but positive comments on the support from the local service manager. A pleasure to work with. Mercedes on the other hand does not support their vehicle designs. No help from Mercedes for the local dealer.

So whole process took about 6 months and many visits to the local dealer to get a resolution.

What I learned:

1. Do not buy a bastardized Espar from Mercedes. No support and very costly parts.
2. NCV3 will run with the Espar controls disconnected.
3. No dealer experience with the Espar option.
4. Was not pleased with Mercedes statement that they did not make my 08 Sprinter.
5. Was not pleased with Mercedes statement that they did not install the heater so it must be a heater installed by a third party. (I bought 08 Dodge new with the heater option.)
6. Do not do business with a company that does not support it's product.
7. Sell the Sprinter.
8. Keep my older less complicated 02 BMW and 03 Dodge Dakota. Repair as required but never sell.
 
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GeorgeRa

2013 Sprinter DIY 144WB, Portland OR
This is water under the bridge issue for you but when did this heater actually failed for the first time, was it 6 months ago?, and did you ever spoke directly with a Mercedes Customer Service person?

George.
 

Graphite Dave

Dave Orton
First failure was on the way home from Sprinterfest in 2013. Then it worked for awhile. Dead before Sprinterfest in 2014. Went to Rixen Enterprises prior to this years Sprinterfest. He removed Espar and did not see any problem with it. I had assumed it just needed cleaning after 6 years but it was clean. Of course he could not proceed further because the controls were part of the Mercedes computer programing. Called the local Espar service centers in the Bay Area and determined they could not fix it because it was not a complete Espar system. Then started to hound the local authorized Sprinter service center. The Sprinter only service manager called Mercedes and was told they did not make the 08 Sprinter and they did not install the Espar. Local service manager was the person who talked to Mercedes. He was excellent and understood that Mercedes should support products that they produce. He repeatedly tried to get help from Mercedes. He finally found someone who he had met at a training school who knew something about the system. There is not any troubleshooting software in the Mercedes "mother computer". I kept visiting the local dealership asking if he had made any progress with Mercedes. The service manager was trying to get information and was doing his best to resolve the problem.
Just a poor engineering decision to install the Espar without the proven Espar controls. The VW version of the Sprinter in Europe had a Espar option but it included the Espar 7 day timer with diagnostics. I had the same problem many years ago when I bought a wine filler from one manufacturer and installed another manufacturer's capper on the filler. Each manufacturer blamed the other when we had problems.
I am not impressed with Mercedes.
As you have stated, it is water under the bridge for me. Sprinter is gone.

The reason for completing this post is to warn others not to buy the Mercedes Espar option. If they want an Espar then buy it after the Sprinter purchase and install it with the Espar controls that include diagnostics. That way they can avoid what I have experienced.
 
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