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-   -   Noblemercedes warning: Change Turbo Inlet Seal every time disturbed (https://sprinter-source.com/forum/showthread.php?t=48673)

smiller 05-01-2018 08:14 PM

Re: Noblemercedes warning: Change Turbo Inlet Seal every time disturbed
 
FWIW the Mopar p/n for the turbo inlet seal on my 2007 V6 is 5175743AA

mikeme 05-12-2018 10:35 AM

Re: Noblemercedes warning: Change Turbo Inlet Seal every time disturbed
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by TooMuchHair (Post 591970)
Mike, first I want to say I am so sorry this happened to your van, next I want to thank you for your original comments about changing your fuel filter. I did my 2015 today and your posts were very helpful, especially the pics of the omega shaped clamp.

So here are a few things for the future, when I saw that your seal stuck on the turbo (remembered others saying the same thing) I ran my heat gun on the turbo inlet for a few minutes and even though it would not budge before it it now slid off easily and left the turbo neck completely clean and stayed in the plastic clean air hose.
I too considered re-using the seal, but decided to use the new one I had ordered thinking "why carry it around?"
The next time you take this apart and look at how the seal needs to be worked into place into the female plastic part you will be able to see that just pushing it back onto the seal while still stuck on the turbo probably did not fully engage the step on the OD of the seal.
:cheers: I literally just came in and saw this, so thanks again and know that I am bummed for you.

And a huge thanks to all that Noblemercedes adds to this (and other) groups!

"the seal needs to be worked into place into the female plastic part"

This, I think was the source of my problem.

I got my hands on some (probably bootleg) MB tech data, and there is a note:

The sealing ring must be inserted into the air intake hose first, to ensure that the sealing ring is not crushed. Parts of the crushed sealing ring may otherwise be sucked into the compressor wheel of the turbocharger severely damaged.

Flagster 06-14-2018 05:05 PM

Re: Noblemercedes warning: Change Turbo Inlet Seal every time disturbed
 
My dealer did this at our 40K B service. Said it was now part of their normal maintenance procedure with disruption of the seal. 40.00 charged...

DSpencer 08-06-2018 07:18 AM

Re: Noblemercedes warning: Change Turbo Inlet Seal every time disturbed
 
4 Attachment(s)
Quote:

Originally Posted by smiller (Post 591773)
I'm really confused about how this happens. When properly installed the seal is on the outside if the turbo intake, in between it and the plastic pipe. If the seal is in place and clamped properly I don't see how it is possible for it to migrate in such a way that it gets sucked into the intake. The only thing I can envision is two possible scenarios... one is that upon installation the gasket somehow gets shoved out of position and into the turbo intake, but this doesn't seem very easy to do. The other is that due to excessive tightening of the clamp the gasket gets cut in half, allowing the now-separated trailing portion (with the lip) to get sucked in. I think this is what happened with the early design because that had a thin portion that was easy to damage, but updated replacement that has been out for many years is much thicker and not really prone to this. All in all a mystery to me.

I stumbled on this thread and my reaction is the same as this persons, none of this "problem" makes any sense to me. I have had that orange seal off and on multiple times. I have attempted to upload four JPEGs of photos I took of the relevant parts. The inlet tube to the turbocharger has a lip on the end that fits into the none-ribbed region on the inside of the orange seal. Clearly you have to put the seal first on the inlet pipe and then install the air hose over it because doing it the other way will very likely damage (or tear up) the silicone seal as it scapes over that inlet pipe lip as it is forced onto the turbo inlet. That lip is like all similar features on such pipes, namely to provide a safety to prevent the seal (and hose) slipping off because the band clamp, properly tightened, shouldn't permit that. The orange seal does slightly fold over the end of the turbo inlet tube when the connection is properly clamped together. My fourth photo (of the end of the air hose that goes over the seal on the turbo inlet; focus not good, sorry) shows the shelf inside the air hose that presses against that foldover on the orange seal, forcing it against the end of the turbo inlet pipe when the parts are properly assembled. The orange seal is a tiny bit wider/deeper than the air hose can accommodate so when the air hose and seal are installed properly on the turbo inlet, and the ring clamp tightened, a very tiny part of the orange seal can still be seen next to the turbo housing. I also cannot see how, at least with the setup on my OM642, you could tighten the band clamp so far that you would cut the orange seal inside. The air hose pipe is a fairly rigid plastic and not very compressible.
With the whole setup put together as I think it is clear it has to be done just how can some or all of that orange seal be sucked into the turbo? The physics doesn't add up. The only force that could pull the seal into the inner turbo inlet is vacuum and there is virtually no vacuum at the turbo inlet, unless I suppose your air filter is really blocked up. It is not possible to actually measure the vacuum right at the turbo inlet but I did measure just downstream of the air filter element by removing the small air pressure sensor on the air filter housing and connecting a vacuum gauge there. Now you could argue that the turbo inlet could have a little higher vacuum than where I measured, the problem is there was no measurable vacuum at the port I used (and although that was at idle it would only be about 5 or 6 times that at engine red-line, so at best slightly above zero). You also have to consider how much exposed surface area there is of the orange seal on the turbo inlet (with the air hose clamped over the seal), obviously at the turbo housing end. That area is where any vacuum inside the turbo inlet would be exerting force to pull the seal in, and the necessary vacuum to have any effect would have to be really high. Now obviously any shards of the orange seal that were created during improper assembly would be drawn by air flow into the turbo blades and cause a mess but nothing else makes any sense. Normally the orange seal is more or less dry but the crankcase ventilation hose joins the air hose just before the turbo inlet and you will find a drop or two of oil in the CCV hose but in my experience it doesn't seem to get up to the orange seal so that shouldn't be a factor. I admit that I have at times been tempted to put a light coating of the old classic black Permatex Form-A-Gasket #2 (non-drying) on the orange seal but decided that was unnecessary and would introduce a factor that I didn't need to contend with; my '08 Sprinter is enough of an ongoing project and I certainly don't need any extra aggravation.

TooMuchHair 08-06-2018 01:11 PM

Re: Noblemercedes warning: Change Turbo Inlet Seal every time disturbed
 
DSpencer, thanks for the photos of your orange seal. The newer style black seal has an added external square boss located in the same area where your orange seal folds over the turbo inlet slightly. This square boss on the outside of the black seal heads into the plastic air supply tube first, and must be worked into its corresponding groove first. It gets somewhat locked in position in the plastic tube once the boss and groove are engaged, but it would be pretty unlikely, maybe impossible to properly engage if the black seal was installed onto the turbo inlet tube first. It needs to be able to slightly flex inward for the larger OD of the square boss to make it "home" without damage.

Given the way these seals tend to get a little stuck to the aluminum turbo inlet I suspect the earlier orange seal's design is more tolerant to the plastic air pipe being turned to the side or removed without damaging the seal.

But the newer black sealing being "locked" into the plastic pipe you could see where turning the pipe could damage the seal. Or if someone that had worked with the orange seals pulled the plastic pipe off leaving the black seal stuck to the turbo inlet might not be aware of the new external boss needing to go into the plastic first.

Pretty simple stuff but at the same time plenty of room for confusion, even by MB technicians. There have been at least a dozen cases of turbo destruction that I have personally read about.

smiller 08-06-2018 01:27 PM

Re: Noblemercedes warning: Change Turbo Inlet Seal every time disturbed
 
FWIW the current orange seal is now solid with no ribbing at all, pretty much a thick hunk of silicone. Seems just about impossible for it to split unless heavily abused.

PermaHeretic 08-20-2018 09:03 PM

Re: Noblemercedes warning: Change Turbo Inlet Seal every time disturbed
 
Does anyone know if this seal is likely to give rise to a P2263 error code?

mikeme 10-03-2018 07:27 PM

Re: Noblemercedes warning: Change Turbo Inlet Seal every time disturbed
 
https://sprinter-source.com/forum/pi...pictureid=5156

https://sprinter-source.com/forum/pi...pictureid=5157

https://sprinter-source.com/forum/pi...pictureid=5158

https://sprinter-source.com/forum/pi...pictureid=5160


I took these when changing my fuel filter last month.

the inlet tube as shown was installed by the dealer tech as part of my turbo replacement. (The inlet tube comes with a seal installed)

the seal came off the turbo and remained inside the tube when I pulled it off.

I wish I had taken some photos the first time I did this, would have saved me some, and perhaps others. my memory tells me that the seal stuck to the turbo inlet, and did not look like these photos. it had more of a grey color, and a surface that looked like some kind of folded plastic or fabric was against it. I lacked the knowledge to look inside the inlet tube, which was left close to avoid disconnecting additional tubing.

the seal shown is the old one, wiped off with a towel for these photos. It probably is fine, but I replaced it out of respect for my previous repair bill.

whambulance 10-04-2018 10:49 PM

Re: Noblemercedes warning: Change Turbo Inlet Seal every time disturbed
 
2 Attachment(s)
Don't overtighten the clamp, they said. Change the seal every time, they said....
This is what happened to me. I heard some unusual air leak/vacum noises and decided to investigate.

It's pretty self explanatory.... The pipe cost me $368 AU,
However, it did come with a new orange seal.

Aqua Puttana 10-10-2018 04:27 PM

Re: Noblemercedes warning: Change Turbo Inlet Seal every time disturbed
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by whambulance (Post 696113)
...

It's pretty self explanatory.... The pipe cost me $368 AU,
However, it did come with a new orange seal.

That seems like a dear price for a bit of plastic hose. :bash:

Was what I assume is a hardened area of the failure localized to the one end? Any hint as to what caused the material failure? Heat? Oil leak, solvents on the outside? Just age/miles?

vic


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