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View Full Version : Help! Starts, Idles, Stalls.


GregTierraTraveler
06-22-2019, 01:27 AM
2006 (02/06) Sprinter. Starts, Idles for about a minute, then stalls. Fuel Starvation.

No Codes.

No Chaffed Wires.

History...

Previous factory rear ac vehicle than suffered a broken double row harmonic balance pulley bolt and tossed the pulley. (Rear AC and compressor have been removed.) New bolt (10.9) installed and single row pulley installed. During the tear down an oil leak was discovered and it was determined that the head gasket was leaking. Head removed, timing and oil pump chain replaced, new gasket, and also all 5 reman injectors installed.

Reassembly and first start reveal that the engine idles, then shudders to a stop after a minute and a half) when cold. Immediately will restart. Acceleration also causes the engine to stall. It will start again immediately. After numerous hours of troubleshooting today. The problem persists. It now will start, idle for a moment, then stall.

This is not an electrical wire chaffing issue.

Fuel Starvation? Low Pressure Fuel? Installed a new Bosch Fuel Filter as well...

I have changed the programming of the ECU to reflect the unique injector numbers as well.

Snap On Solus is the diagnostic tool i'm using. NO CODES.

I've run data and nothing seems out of the normal ranges.

Tried a new MAF Sensor just to see if maybe it would change things. No change.

I had installed and aftermarket billet aluminum resonator (which has since been removed as it had a horrible fitment issue and I didn't trust it, so i reinstalled the original resonator.)

Air Charge hoses are intact no leaks or cracks causing an air leak.

I talked with Dr. A yesterday and have left a new VM.

OK all you greasy bloody knuckle mechanics, let's hear it. What have you got?

Midwestdrifter
06-22-2019, 01:42 AM
Exactly how long does it idle? This is important as the hpfp fuel quantity valve takes over at 40 seconds if I remember correctly.

What is your low pressure fuel pressure? Put a gauge on it. Must be at least 50psi.

GregTierraTraveler
06-22-2019, 03:50 AM
The amount of time varies. The first start this AM, was a perfect start. The engine Idled for 1:34. then it stalled. I immediately cycled the key, and restarted. The idle time slowly began decreasing as I added starts, scanned for codes, ran diagnostics etc. Throughout the process I tried different scenarios. At one point toward the end of the day, I would start the engine and it would idle for about 10 seconds and die. If I introduce fuel by accelerating, immediate engine stall.

I can't give a definite answer to the low pressure fuel number, but I will tell you that while running the engine at idle and simultaneously using the diagnostic tool running the DATA function, I did not see any parameters that were out of tolerance, then again it wouldn't stay running long enough...

I will attempt to gather this info, and make note of the number you mentioned. Thank you.

Nautamaran
06-22-2019, 03:54 AM
You can use the rail pressure as an estimate for the LP pump’s pressure, before cranking.

There is an intake screen on the fuel tank’s pump module... perhaps it is clogged?

-dave

Bobnoxious
06-22-2019, 04:02 AM
Sounds like she's sucking air. I would inspect all related hoses and connections common to the fuel filter. Ensure correct fuel filter and fuel line clamps used.

Nautamaran
06-22-2019, 04:09 AM
Could be, but it’s a 2006 so should have a tank pump?

Bobnoxious
06-22-2019, 04:13 AM
Remember the Mustang II back in the late 70s? Hunk of junk exhibited exactly the same issues. Changed the fuel filter worked great but came back week later with same issue. Crud in fuel lines and tank.

GregTierraTraveler
06-22-2019, 04:31 AM
Dave, good info, and according to the data I gathered the desired and actual rail pressure was spot on. at least from the numbers I was seeing. I will obviously recheck this again.

I already sprayed PB Blaster on the tank strap with the intent of dropping it and pulling out the pump. More to follow on this...

Midwestdrifter
06-22-2019, 12:15 PM
There is no reason to drop the tank. Just put a gauge on the fuel feed and watch it during the events. If it drops below about 55psi, then the HPFP will stop getting fuel, and a stall will result almost immediately.

lindenengineering
06-22-2019, 12:41 PM
2006 (02/06) Sprinter. Starts, Idles for about a minute, then stalls. Fuel Starvation.

No Codes.

No Chaffed Wires.

History...

Previous factory rear ac vehicle than suffered a broken double row harmonic balance pulley bolt and tossed the pulley. (Rear AC and compressor have been removed.) New bolt (10.9) installed and single row pulley installed. During the tear down an oil leak was discovered and it was determined that the head gasket was leaking. Head removed, timing and oil pump chain replaced, new gasket, and also all 5 reman injectors installed.

Reassembly and first start reveal that the engine idles, then shudders to a stop after a minute and a half) when cold. Immediately will restart. Acceleration also causes the engine to stall. It will start again immediately. After numerous hours of troubleshooting today. The problem persists. It now will start, idle for a moment, then stall.

This is not an electrical wire chaffing issue.

Fuel Starvation? Low Pressure Fuel? Installed a new Bosch Fuel Filter as well...

I have changed the programming of the ECU to reflect the unique injector numbers as well.

Snap On Solus is the diagnostic tool i'm using. NO CODES.

I've run data and nothing seems out of the normal ranges.

Tried a new MAF Sensor just to see if maybe it would change things. No change.

I had installed and aftermarket billet aluminum resonator (which has since been removed as it had a horrible fitment issue and I didn't trust it, so i reinstalled the original resonator.)

Air Charge hoses are intact no leaks or cracks causing an air leak.

I talked with Dr. A yesterday and have left a new VM.

OK all you greasy bloody knuckle mechanics, let's hear it. What have you got?

With a Snap on Solus tool switch to live data and read out the figures on KOEO and when you can get it running KOEO conditions.
That's how we Pro's in the business find NO CEL code faults.
The answer lies in the live data .
Dennis

GregTierraTraveler
06-22-2019, 03:18 PM
Dennis, I appreciate it. We pro's from the aviation industry, know who the real pro's are, that's why I'm here. I will be running live data again today and post my findings.

GregTierraTraveler
06-22-2019, 03:28 PM
New piece of information. There is fuel on the top of the fuel filter. This is promising. Not a smoking gun, but at least it's something.

GregTierraTraveler
06-27-2019, 04:31 PM
In the interest of brevity, fuel on top of fuel filter is a non issue. It could've been a loose clamp, or a leaking -o-ring, either way it's been rectified.

The diagnostic tool has been returned and I am awaiting the opportunity to run it again with the tool.

Starts and idles for just a short time, anywhere from 10-20 seconds.

Stumped at this point.

autostaretx
06-27-2019, 04:58 PM
This could also be a chunk of contamination anywhere along the fuel feed system... such as a big rust flake.
Engine off, it just falls down somewhere.
Engine on, it's lifted/disturbed by the flowing fuel...
... and is carried to some "choke point" where it blocks flow.
Engine dies, flake drops back to its "rest" position.

Rinse and repeat. Just like the hot water spigot in my laundry room's sink....

--dick

GregTierraTraveler
06-27-2019, 07:07 PM
An in-line pressure gauge on the fuel feed after the filter and before the pump reads a constant 50-55 psi from key on, through start, then as it stalls...still reading 50-55 psi. (Bangs head on desk)

Midwestdrifter
06-27-2019, 07:53 PM
There are no sudden spikes in fuel pressure before the stall? Does the tach drop out early?

Any changes if you disconnect the MAF or EGR?

GregTierraTraveler
06-27-2019, 09:23 PM
No Sudden spikes observed. If I unplug the EGR, P0403 code and no change in the result. Same with the MAF, P0100 and P0102, no change in the results.

Crushing it over here...

Bobnoxious
06-27-2019, 09:32 PM
An in-line pressure gauge on the fuel feed after the filter and before the pump reads a constant 50-55 psi from key on, through start, then as it stalls...still reading 50-55 psi. (Bangs head on desk)

What about volume?

Midwestdrifter
06-27-2019, 09:45 PM
I would suggest wiring a LED check light in parallel with the ECMs ignition power feed. If there is an interruption, the ECM will loose power and stall. This generally doesn't set a code. It would be worthwhile checking the main ground stud above the battery.

The engine ground strap can cause stalling, but its usually associated with hard starting due to voltage drops.

Bobnoxious
06-27-2019, 10:01 PM
OK all you greasy bloody knuckle mechanics, let's hear it. What have you got?

I've been criticized for posting this, but I know it's helped at least one person.

https://www.mbwholesaleparts.com/content/dam/microsites/mb-wholesale-parts/pdf/1306-mbst-Battery.pdf

https://www.mbwholesaleparts.com/content/dam/microsites/mb-wholesale-parts/pdf/Connections-Come-First.pdf

Bobnoxious
06-28-2019, 01:26 AM
While watering the garden, I remembered this video. Sounds similar.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=p07yjGPDdxg

GregTierraTraveler
06-28-2019, 03:47 PM
Thanks Bob, I too have installed new injectors and programmed the unique code into the ecu. Good video, similar situation.

Bobnoxious
06-28-2019, 04:45 PM
Maybe crud in the tank re-contaminated the filter?

GregTierraTraveler
06-28-2019, 08:24 PM
could be I guess. I did take the fuel filter out when I put the inline pressure gauge on the feed. I disassembled it and replaced O-Rings. New Clamps to replace the crimp style clamps I put on at first. I dumped fuel out of it to see what it looked like. Clear and Bright.

I have the Solus Diagnostic tool back so I'm going to start back with the fuel rail pressure and te fuel pressure solenoid. If tat is good I'll start looking at HPFP.

GregTierraTraveler
06-28-2019, 11:11 PM
Thanks everyone who chimed in. This has been a devestateing learning experience. Oil starvation. FML...

Midwestdrifter
06-28-2019, 11:39 PM
Wait, it was stalling due to seized bearings? :cry:

Bobnoxious
06-29-2019, 12:53 AM
No snark, my heart sunk when I heard oil starvation. Damn! Diagnosis?

GregTierraTraveler
06-29-2019, 07:43 AM
Not sure yet. Don't have a whole lot of gumption to tear into it at the moment.

Midwestdrifter
06-29-2019, 12:03 PM
So the oil filter is full of metal?