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View Full Version : No Start 40 miles from home. I could SKREEM.


SprinterSnale
05-22-2019, 03:44 AM
Hey guys,
Last week my 05 T1 stalled after 30 seconds and I could not restart until letting it sit overnight. Next morning it started and ran perfect.
I checked and cleaned all the grounds lugs, new ground strap, new negative battery cable, new battery. It ran fine for the past week, 60 miles today. And now another run for 30 seconds then shut off after a two hour break.
This leads me to believe it may be the SKREEM system believing the key is not valid shutting off the fuel pump. Or a dreaded ECU failure.
I have an ICarSoft MBII and will pull the codes.
There is no CEL. Though last Monday it did trigger a CEL (P10ff) and some CAN bus communication errors.

If anybody has an idea of what to jiggle, I'll be hanging out in Red Bluff for a bit...

I will post codes in a minute.

Cheers Dale

SprinterSnale
05-22-2019, 04:14 AM
Clues:
I can hear the fuel pump in the tank running.

SSG
P240a-016
P240a-032

CR
P2045-001
-002
-004
-016
-064
P2817-001
002
-004
-016
-064
P2333-001
-002
-004
-016
-064

EWM
C3601

WSP
NO DTCS
Transdponder appears to be working

K1
no DTCs

I have a new fuel filter. I think I will throw that at it next...

Bobnoxious
05-22-2019, 04:33 AM
How many ground lugs did you clean?

SprinterSnale
05-22-2019, 04:36 AM
all but the one under the hump on the dash

SprinterSnale
05-22-2019, 05:01 AM
Swapped the fuel filter and it started. Whether it was a clogged filter (only 10k old) or an electronic malfunction remains to be seen. This is only the 2nd time it would not start and both times were after starting and running fine for 30 seconds.

SprinterSnale
05-22-2019, 06:12 AM
Made it back to Butte County. Pulled the codes in the driveway before shutting it off.
CDI P2045P P2817, P2333
K1 none
WSP none
EWM C3601
EGS P240A Engine speed from engine control module is inplausible
CR same as earlier post (note glow plugs replaced and GP module v.3 installed in Jan)
SSG P240a–032

New Fusebox 1 also installed in January.
The T1 starts in a half second every time and runs like a top (except these two instances of run for 30 seconds and shut off)

Those are the clues.
Insight, theories and expertise and heck, even dumb looks, are appreciated. Cheers Dale

Midwestdrifter
05-22-2019, 11:40 AM
2045, no singnal from crankshaft sensor

2333 canbus comm from TCM to SLA is faulty

My first guess is a power loss due to fauly Fuse block one. My second guess is harness damage near the fuel filter.

I don't have time to dig through the fault diagnostic guide, but you can find it on the DIY sprinter site.

http://diysprinter.co.uk/reference/


BTW, if it was the skreem, you would likely get a no-start error on the dash. Also note that the skreem will not cause stalling.

Does the engine not start, or not crank? There are different diagnostic trees for both.

Does the tach rise at all during the no-start cranking period? If not the ECM is not getting a crank sensor input.

Aqua Puttana
05-22-2019, 12:55 PM
After a battery problem or any low voltage condition Eg. - ground or connection problems, DTC's found in history are suspect. Low voltages can upset modules which can result in any number of unrelated DTC's.

A bad fuel filter can definitely affect engine operation.

My recommendation.
Manually poll each and every module, record all DTC's, and then clear all codes to start fresh.

:2cents: vic

vanski
05-22-2019, 01:56 PM
Hey Dale.. Iíd also bet a battery issue or ground issue. Iíve seen batteries start to go bad and specifically cause crank and camshaft sensor issues, sometimes actually frying them.

Given you have a new fusebox, as I installed it :)), Iíd hope that wouldnít be the cause, but perhaps you were on a bumpy road and it became unseated. I think I recall when swapping your old fuse box that it was partially unseated and I was actually surprised you werenít having more issues than the reason we replaced; intermittent wiper relay failure and blinker issues.. perhaps remove the cover around the fuse block to see if it somehow came unseated again. If itís seated correctly Iíd recommend not going any further in disassembly by unscrewing the top brass bolt as thereís a good chance you could strip the plastic. Save that for when youíre more certain youíre having a fb1 issue.

Didnít I inspect your wiring harness around the fuel filter and zip tie in a bicycle tube around it as preventative maintenance to protect from chaffing?

If the battery is old it may be time to go ahead and replace. 850 minimum cold cranking amps...

SprinterSnale
05-22-2019, 04:33 PM
Thanks guys for narrowing the scope of examination.
2045, no signal from crankshaft sensor
Does the engine not start, or not crank? There are different diagnostic trees for both.

Does the tach rise at all during the no-start cranking period? If not the ECM is not getting a crank sensor input.
Thank you for the link MWD.
The engine cranks every time.
I noted good cam and crank sensor sych between incidents, but did not specifically examine the tach while cranking no-starting last night. I have a new spare crankshaft position sensor onboard, but have held off install seeing the tach move and having synch a couple days ago. Since it is a hall effect sensor and it's pesky location and propensity to stick and possibly break apart, I am reluctant to throw it in until inspecting the wiring.

While installing the filter last night, I noticed an area of the TCM wiring exposed where the tape came off from inspecting that loom last year.

That pinch point in the loom at the fuel filter bracket looks mighty tight. Vanski suggested zip tie removal, inspection then inner tube wrap before reattachment.

I will go over this wiring straight away.

Vic, you are on point and I thank you for the compiled battery thread. My 7 year old Napa 7549 battery static voltage did slowly creep downward 12.5, 12.4, 12.3 over the past couple months--slow enough I did not take note of the trend or caveat. My first stall after 30 seconds lead me to believe a cell failure in the battery at that moment. This battery continued to operate the van until Sunday when it would no longer crank (click of the solenoid only). A load test at Napa revealed a bad cell. I sure hope this didn't bugger electrical sensor things. Now, I'd like to believe the battery was killed by multiple futile cranks. I did no jump starts.

Vanski's FB1 inspection sounds like a good place for review. I did hit potholes on a dirt driveway before incident one. Last night, I popped the curb on a hard right into the parking lot of my destination...where it stalled out and crank-no-start after a 2 hour break. (that's a clue)

Time to suit up. More codes coming soon.
1000 college, high school, and Jr. High students are counting on me to provide audio at their graduations over the next two weeks. Renting a UHaul is a backup option, but just ain't cool.

autostaretx
05-22-2019, 06:12 PM
I have a new spare crankshaft position sensor onboard, but have held off install seeing the tach move and having synch a couple days ago. Since it is a hall effect sensor and it's pesky location and propensity to stick and possibly break apart, I am reluctant to throw it in until inspecting the wiring.
The CRANKshaft sensor is not a Hall sensor ... it's simply a coil of wire doing an AC magnetic pick-up of the passing flywheel teeth.

The CAMshaft sensor is a Hall effect.

See the files whose names start with 058... and a few pages higher here: http://diysprinter.co.uk/reference/T1N_service_scans/

--dick

SprinterSnale
05-22-2019, 06:26 PM
The CRANKshaft sensor is not a Hall sensor ... it's simply a coil of wire doing an AC magnetic pick-up of the passing flywheel teeth.

Thanks Dick for the clarification and pardon my cam/crank sensor confusion.
The cam and crank position sensors are reading 'synch ok' this morning. Of course this can't be verified when it is not starting. The PDF link read gives the sense it could be the issue.

Question: Could the crankshaft sensor perform intermittently? Or does this sensor just go bad and stay bad?

The cam shaft sensor is OEM replaced 3 years ago.

I'm digging through the wiring now. No codes after clearing everything this morning. More details in a bit.
Thanks all.

vanski
05-22-2019, 06:46 PM
Question: Could the crankshaft sensor perform intermittently?..

Yes, especially if the battery is going south. At least thatís what Iíve seen a couple, so no expert, of times..

SprinterSnale
05-22-2019, 07:18 PM
.
Yes, especially if the battery is going south. At least thatís what Iíve seen a couple, so no expert, of times..

...and from the Europarts SD page"
When this part fails, it causes a "No start" condition, generally when the engine is hot. It may work again when the engine is cold but, will again fail at operating temperature."

That resembles what is going on enough to toss it in straight away. Located the spare under three bags of stale dog-food.:lol:

I appreciate your ever increasing knowledge of the T1s. Before going to Colorado, Philly or Carolina for Sprinter needs, NorCal T1s should check in with Vanski.:cheers:

SprinterSnale
05-22-2019, 08:55 PM
New crankshaft position sensor installed.
Camshaft and crankshaft position sensors synchronization 'ok'
No DTCs

For what it is worth, The old Cranckshaft sensor measured 1.38kohnms of resistance. The new one metered at 1.12kohms.

My original engine ground strap metered 130 ohms and the new one around 30 ohms (installed last week. ) I had that part for a year because I could not remove the 18mm nut on the engine mount side...until I saw this:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ba-VhxEiWls
That bolt was completely covered in Locktite blue.

Time for a test drive to see how it starts after that.

Thanks guys. Dale

Midwestdrifter
05-22-2019, 10:07 PM
FYI 30 ohms is way too high. I assume that your meter must not be zeroed, as 130 ohms would not even let the engine crank. The new cable is likely fine though.

autostaretx
05-22-2019, 10:12 PM
My original engine ground strap metered 130 ohms and the new one around 30 ohms (installed last week. )
Ummm... do i detect a Harbor Freight ohmmeter set to the lowest scale?

Your engine-to-frame should be very close to zero ohms ... certainly not 30 (thirty).

I just measured mine (with an HF meter :rolleyes:) ... , poking one probe against the front of the engine block and the other against some bare metal up near the driver's side windshield wiper, i "measured" 14 ohms at the lowest (200 ohm) scale, but only 4 ohms at the 2000 ohm scale.
Which is what i also measured just crossing the probe tips.
I also swapped which probe went where (red and black swap), just in case current through the strap was skewing the reading. (an "ohmmeter" is really a sensitive current meter). There was a difference (at the lowest scale).
Disconnecting the Sprinter's battery would remove that residual current.

--dick

SprinterSnale
05-23-2019, 01:20 AM
Ummm... do i detect a Harbor Freight ohmmeter set to the lowest scale?
Your engine-to-frame should be very close to zero ohms ... certainly not 30 (thirty).

Whoops. The leads were plugged into the wrong meter inputs. Less than .2ohms engine ground to firewall post.
The old ground strap measures at .3 ohms.

Everything appears normal after a test drive into the foothills and back on the bumpy stage road. No DTCs. All starts have been normal.

Aqua Puttana
05-23-2019, 12:31 PM
Whoops. The leads were plugged into the wrong meter inputs. Less than .2ohms engine ground to firewall post.
The old ground strap measures at .3 ohms.

Everything appears normal after a test drive into the foothills and back on the bumpy stage road. No DTCs. All starts have been normal.
Easy mistake. Thanks for the feedback. :thumbup:

Digital meter technology is quite mature. Designing/manufacturing an accurate meter isn't rocket science. Meters are much like watches. The expense of a watch is in the style, case, and marketing. Even the cheapest watches are accurate enough for personal use. Good quality test instruments have more rugged cases, switching, leads, etc. They're not necessarily heads up more accurate.

I have a few fairly expensive multi-meters which I've accumulated over the decades. For general troubleshooting I often grab one of the cheapy... actually free with a coupon, HF meters. They don't trace back to National standards, but they're generally accurate. If one goes wonky, throw it away and replace it.

:2cents: vic

SprinterSnale
05-23-2019, 05:15 PM
Right on the meters. I use a Tenma. Offshore built, but adequate to live in the tool box. My primary meter use is to verify AC voltage and grounds at venues, test battery voltages, measure speaker resistance and check cable continuity. That's an audio engineer for you.

Ironically, when I mentioned my ground resistances to my Dad, who is a retired EE, he did not catch it either. The Sprinter experts did. Thank you.