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frostback
02-10-2007, 08:03 PM
I'm nearing 130,000 miles and my glow plug lights been coming on. I read that this is about the lifespan of glowplugs on Sprinters so I figure its time to replace them. I know there are special pliers but I'd like to know what other tools, sockets etc I will need to swap these out. :thinking:

Derek

abittenbinder
02-10-2007, 09:32 PM
Proceed with caution. The pliers are simply used to make removal and reattchment of the electrical connector-relatively pain free. You can make up your own deep socket/universal joint/short extension combination to access the glow plugs themselves. You need to be forewarned that extraordinary dexterity and patience are called for - you need to be extremely careful when attempting to loosen the old glow plugs-they're quite slim and could shear, if seized in place. If that happens-well you know the rest. I would recommend you perform this procedure when cyl. head is quite warm and don't rush your work. Also be sure your problems are not caused by a faulty glow plug module. Andy

Altered Sprinter
02-14-2007, 08:26 AM
Just a passing thought on the Glow plugs, as some owners may take quite some time to get to the use- by- date of the glow plugs, the longer they are in the more likelihood of one or two may freeze into the threaded bore.
it may pay to change them every two years or at the 50 thousand mark.
If one breaks! then the only way to fix them, is remove the head and drill them out with specialized tools, and thats an expensive exercise.
My suggestion would be to use Anti-Seize Lub, prior to installing the plugs, as a preventative cure to a big headache.
Richard.

frostback
03-26-2007, 05:43 AM
Well I did the glow plug replacement this weekend and it went pretty smoothly. It is very tight especially the rear plug which took as long as the first 4 just because it's a long reach you can't see anything and it is really tight. I had to hunt down a 1/4 drive 10mm deep socket as I couldn't quite get my 3/8 drive on the rearmost plug. The pliers would have been nice but not required. I had to remove one fuel line to access the front plug. The old ones came out pretty good but I played it safe and never seized the new ones.

I had hoped the glow plug light would go out after this but it has not. Does it need to be reset or is it likely the relay that triggered the light? I wasn't sure it was the glow plugs but I figured 130000 miles is a good run for a glow plug. Repair through the process of elimination. :crazy: It took me 3 hours which is the same amount of time it takes to get to my nearest Sprinter dealer.

Derek

tegimr
03-27-2007, 02:03 AM
. . .
it may pay to change them every two years or at the 50 thousand mark.
If one breaks! then the only way to fix them, is remove the head and drill them out with specialized tools, and thats an expensive exercise.
. . .

Richard.

Well, for someone who purchased one and *TRUSTED* that the dealership would service correctly - trusted for too long :bash: , but is now back with the ratchet and sockets in hand :thumbup: :thumbup: - this is a odd place to find onself. With 115 K on the '03 one is risking an expensive repair to avert an expensive repair.

What to do, what to do . . . :thinking: :idunno:

Tim

acvr4
03-27-2007, 03:22 PM
I seem to have just started to have a problem with my #4 Glow plug & module -- that's the codes that pop up- have to love these Scan guages :thumbup: . It doesn't happen all the time just every once in while. I'm getting a set of new ones to change them but could there be a loose connection ? I'll be checking it either tonight or tomorrow but just checking for some heads up before hand.

abittenbinder
03-27-2007, 09:27 PM
I seem to have just started to have a problem with my #4 Glow plug & module -- that's the codes that pop up- have to love these Scan guages :thumbup: . It doesn't happen all the time just every once in while. I'm getting a set of new ones to change them but could there be a loose connection ? I'll be checking it either tonight or tomorrow but just checking for some heads up before hand.

The DTCs set by the glow plug module(also referred to as glow plug relay) are unreliable. An indication for a particular cylinders glow plug failure may involve a completely different cylinders glow plug OR non at all-it typically indicates a defective module. DC has FINALLY acknowledged this DTC problem in the latest release notes for the DRBIII sprinter memory card update. The module(relay) part# was 5103568AA and has superseded to 5170859AA-about $110.00 from Dodge. BTW, a defective glow plug can damage a new replacement module-so don't replace a specific single glow plug based on DTC info-then find the problem is still present -then replace the module only to have the undiagnosed defective glow plug destroy your new module. Doktor A

tegimr
03-28-2007, 03:45 PM
. . . BTW, a defective glow plug can damage a new replacement module-so don't replace a specific single glow plug based on DTC info-then find the problem is still present -then replace the module only to have the undiagnosed defective glow plug destroy your new module. Doktor A

That seems odd (not to challenge Andy, but rather the engineering team) to make something that would fail on a defective glow plug. Does it extend to a failure of a glow-plug after it's installed?

Tim

gerrym51
04-01-2007, 02:29 PM
how much is it to replace glo-plugs.

sikwan
04-01-2007, 04:18 PM
how much is it to replace glo-plugs.

The glow plug itself is around $16.88 each + tax/shipping.

Price is here...

http://www.europarts-sd.com/get-pdf.php?f=sprinter.pdf

Seek

acvr4
04-02-2007, 11:28 PM
Ok I have a question any one have a new glow plug kicking around that they can post a picture of ?
I purchased a set from ebay and well I just got them today and they sure don't look new :rant: They look like take-outs that have been cleaned up. I take a new one would what looks to be a copper thread lock line - looks to be brushed up on the threads.

I might be wrong but they just don't look NEW :censored: I'll post up some pitures later.

Andy

acvr4
04-03-2007, 12:11 AM
Picture of what I got -- I guess I was expecting boxed ones but they were wrapped in bubble wrap just don't look brand new maybe it's just me :idunno:

abittenbinder
04-03-2007, 02:01 AM
Ok I have a question any one have a new glow plug kicking around that they can post a picture of ?
I purchased a set from ebay and well I just got them today and they sure don't look new :rant: They look like take-outs that have been cleaned up. I take a new one would what looks to be a copper thread lock line - looks to be brushed up on the threads.

I might be wrong but they just don't look NEW :censored: I'll post up some pitures later.

Andy

I usually buy glow plugs direct from Bosch but I have several MBenz factory sealed boxes at hand, so I opened one - the MBenz supplied plugs have no pre-applied anti-seize paste(the Bosch boxed also do not). New glow plugs do have heat discoloration just above the tips-either from factory testing or possible heat treatment. I have noticed that some people on EBay have a generous interpretation of "new". Doktor A

acvr4
04-03-2007, 01:07 PM
Hi Doktor A, thanks for that info.
The person got back to me and sent this:
"These plugs were taken off a non installed mopar reman motor. The motor was never ran other than the test run at the rebuilder. If you are unsatisfied I will refund you 100% and request a call tag to have the plugs picked up by UPS."
What get me is the were listed as NEW OEM so that's what I wanted. My question is how do I know if these are actually new? They appear that they might but just sat in the motor for a bit. I only paided $56.25 for the 5 but if they are used they might not be worth that.

Any ideas on what I should do ?


Here's the ad:
"You are bidding on a set of (5) new Mercedes O.E.M glow plugs part# 001-159-49-01. These glow plugs fit the 2.7L Mercedes Diesel used in the Dodge and Freightliner Sprinters. These glow plugs are backed by a 100% money back guarantee. "

abittenbinder
04-03-2007, 03:04 PM
Hi Doktor A, thanks for that info.
The person got back to me and sent this:
"These plugs were taken off a non installed mopar reman motor. The motor was never ran other than the test run at the rebuilder. If you are unsatisfied I will refund you 100% and request a call tag to have the plugs picked up by UPS."
What get me is the were listed as NEW OEM so that's what I wanted. My question is how do I know if these are actually new? They appear that they might but just sat in the motor for a bit. I only paided $56.25 for the 5 but if they are used they might not be worth that.

Any ideas on what I should do ?


Here's the ad:
"You are bidding on a set of (5) new Mercedes O.E.M glow plugs part# 001-159-49-01. These glow plugs fit the 2.7L Mercedes Diesel used in the Dodge and Freightliner Sprinters. These glow plugs are backed by a 100% money back guarantee. "


I recognize your seller from the money back-call tag offer. I even know the engine they came from-he was truthful about that. Keep the glow plugs and give him a brief scolding- he really should have described them as "new take-offs". Doktor A

acvr4
04-03-2007, 04:07 PM
Thank you Doktor A,
That puts me at ease. So I'll keep them. :thumbup:

abittenbinder
04-08-2007, 06:26 AM
That seems odd (not to challenge Andy, but rather the engineering team) to make something that would fail on a defective glow plug. Does it extend to a failure of a glow-plug after it's installed?
Tim

The danger to the health of the module comes not from failed-open glow plugs but defective glow plugs that fail- shorted to ground. These can trigger a DTC-labeled as excess current draw of module. It can be diagnosed by disconnecting the relay(module) wiring connector. Pin #1-5 are the #1-5 cyl. glow plugs. A short length of 12 gage wire modified with a in-line 20 amp fuse, can then connect direct from battery to each pin -in turn. If fuse survives for minimun of 10 seconds- that particular glow plug being tested is not shorted to ground. Check all the glow plugs with this method and find the plug/plugs which are shorted-then you can safely replace a damaged module without endangering the new one. Doktor A

loredo_sprinter
05-06-2007, 02:44 AM
The check engine light just turned on and I got this code off of network car: P0380: Glow Plug/Heater Circuit "A" Malfunction
Diesel engine may be difficult to start
Initial Activity: 5/5/07 06:08 PM at 51213 miles
P0672: Cylinder 2 Glow Plug Circuit
Vehicle is reporting a potential powertrain sensor malfunction
Initial Activity: 5/5/07 06:08 PM at 51213 miles

It's the very first time that I've had this code, but the car runs great , no problems so far ,any sugestions?

Jules :idunno:

b1mmuo27
02-02-2008, 03:43 AM
I have a 2005 Dodge Sprinter with the 2.7litre 5 cylinder turbo diesel. I am trying to remove the glow plugs & what I am finding is that I can unscrew them & have the threads out of the head but the plug will not come out. Are they prone to carbon buildup on the inside? The hex of the plug appears to turn but not the stem of the glow plugs. Any ideas? I am use to GM stlye glow plug that with a little wiggling they came out. Thanks:idunno:

abittenbinder
02-02-2008, 04:13 AM
I was working on a cyl head in the shop - I shot a photo for you showing the protrusion of glow plug into the combustion chamber. Also a photo of a glow plug out of head. Should help you visualize whats at the other end. Doktor A

b1mmuo27
02-02-2008, 09:30 PM
Have you seen carbon on the bottom of the plugs? I can't figure out what is holding them in once totally unscrewed. I used WD 40 squirted into the well of the plugs to loosen them & drove it for a day to help work the threads loose. This appears to have worked but I just can't pull them out.

mean_in_green
02-02-2008, 10:31 PM
I have a glow plug fault on mine on number five.

They seize in place over time, and the risk in removing them is the huge bill you'll face if they break during the removal process. Especially galling when the glow plugs themselves are so cheap.

My glow plug indicator light goes out after about fifteen seconds, instead of after the warm up procedure. It's been doing it now for about two years or so, but the plug feels so tight there's a good chance of a bad outcome if you see what I mean...

I'm not too worried: the engine's being swapped soon.

Simon

Altered Sprinter
02-02-2008, 10:58 PM
I have a glow plug fault on mine on number five.

They seize in place over time, and the risk in removing them is the huge bill you'll face if they break during the removal process. Especially galling when the glow plugs themselves are so cheap.

My glow plug indicator light goes out after about fifteen seconds, instead of after the warm up procedure. It's been doing it now for about two years or so, but the plug feels so tight there's a good chance of a bad outcome if you see what I mean...

I'm not too worried: the engine's being swapped soon.

Simon siomon ...How far off are you from reaching the Big 1:popcorn:
Richard

b1mmuo27
02-02-2008, 11:30 PM
I just managed to split the first plug. Pulled the stem from the body. Still have threads sticking out. Deciding what to do next. It's a clean shot to drill it out from the top. I don't think my easy out's are long enough to reach nor strong enough. Is it me or is the head aluminum? Put in steel with no anti seize & this is what you get.:yell:

Altered Sprinter
02-03-2008, 12:02 AM
Just a passing thought on the Glow plugs, as some owners may take quite some time to get to the use- by- date of the glow plugs, the longer they are in the more likelihood of one or two may freeze into the threaded bore.
it may pay to change them every two years or at the 50 thousand mark.
If one breaks! then the only way to fix them, is remove the head and drill them out with specialized tools, and thats an expensive exercise.
My suggestion would be to use Anti-Seize Lub, prior to installing the plugs, as a preventative cure to a big headache.
Richard.

I just managed to split the first plug. Pulled the stem from the body. Still have threads sticking out. Deciding what to do next. It's a clean shot to drill it out from the top. I don't think my easy out's are long enough to reach nor strong enough. Is it me or is the head aluminum? Put in steel with no anti seize & this is what you get.:yell: Doctor is our master:bow: and on previous page My suggestion! but learn from the good Doktors advice
Richard

abittenbinder
02-03-2008, 03:12 AM
I just managed to split the first plug. Pulled the stem from the body. Still have threads sticking out. Deciding what to do next. It's a clean shot to drill it out from the top. I don't think my easy out's are long enough to reach nor strong enough. Is it me or is the head aluminum? Put in steel with no anti seize & this is what you get.:yell:


Lets back track-How many miles on your Sprinter? Is separation/split of the glow plug the reason you could not pull it out initially? How many are affected (broken)? How many are turning but unbroken and won't come out?

Glow plugs are not very different from spark plugs when it comes to extraction difficulties.

First, the glow plug threads are not quite "steel" against the aluminum head threads but are nickel plated to help prevent seizure.

I have seen anti-seize treated, new, nickel plated spark plugs, correctly torqued, seize in an aluminum head-then break when removal was attempted. Anti-seize can help but it is not the "cure". Exercising or replacing spark plugs periodically is critical to helping prevent seizure-glow plugs may require similar attention.

The cylinder head must be at operating temp when first attempting to loosen glow plugs. If a glow plug won't break loose try again at the next heat cycling of the cyl head- patience is extremely important as is lack of brute force.

Liquid penetrate will not go where you need it if the plug is still seated-threads must be partially exposed for penetrate to help. Doktor A

b1mmuo27
02-03-2008, 03:26 AM
My Sprinter has 135K on it. It's an '05 bought in December '04. Starting not an issue until this winter. Only on really cold nights, -15C & colder did I find it hard to start followed by smoke. I tried putting my CANOBD2 reader on it to read the code but it wouldn't communicate. I have had several diesels in my life so figuring on the glow plugs was not too hard. Reading different forums helped as well. I had sprayed the wells 2 days prior to attempting to removing the plugs. The engine was at normal operating temperature & brute force was not needed. The front plug almost was finger tight. But now I know that it was just turning in the sleeve. Thinking carbon was the culprit I poured a little combustion chamber in the well to break up the carbon. I managed to get a long nose needle nose pliers on the nut portion of the plug & wiggled it back & forth just like a loose tooth. I was surprised when it came out & though I had pulled it out. To my surprise I just pulled out the core. What was left was 2 threads out of the head. I am contemplating what to do next. I will try to remove the plug before I try & remove the head. Any other idea's would be appreciated. :thumbup:

abittenbinder
02-03-2008, 03:37 AM
Just a passing thought on the Glow plugs, as some owners may take quite some time to get to the use- by- date of the glow plugs, the longer they are in the more likelihood of one or two may freeze into the threaded bore.
it may pay to change them every two years or at the 50 thousand mark.

My suggestion would be to use Anti-Seize Lub, prior to installing the plugs, as a preventative cure to a big headache.
Richard

Good advice Richard, though 2 years/50K may be a bit premature. I have had little trouble removing glow plugs up to 100K and a few beyond that mileage. BTW- Thanks for the compliment- we are ALL but humble students in this grand Sprinter experience. Doktor A

abittenbinder
02-03-2008, 03:48 AM
My Sprinter has 135K on it. It's an '05 .

I tried putting my CANOBD2 reader on it to read the code but it wouldn't communicate.

The front plug almost was finger tight. But now I know that it was just turning in the sleeve.

What was left was 2 threads out of the head.

Sprinter diagnostics is not via the CAN Bus but rather K lines.

Kindly clarify-"turning in the sleeve"? and "what was left was 2 treads out of the head"? Doktor A

talkinghorse43
02-03-2008, 03:57 AM
My Sprinter has 135K on it. It's an '05 bought in December '04. Starting not an issue until this winter. Only on really cold nights, -15C & colder did I find it hard to start followed by smoke. I tried putting my CANOBD2 reader on it to read the code but it wouldn't communicate. I have had several diesels in my life so figuring on the glow plugs was not too hard. Reading different forums helped as well. I had sprayed the wells 2 days prior to attempting to removing the plugs. The engine was at normal operating temperature & brute force was not needed. The front plug almost was finger tight. But now I know that it was just turning in the sleeve. Thinking carbon was the culprit I poured a little combustion chamber in the well to break up the carbon. I managed to get a long nose needle nose pliers on the nut portion of the plug & wiggled it back & forth just like a loose tooth. I was surprised when it came out & though I had pulled it out. To my surprise I just pulled out the core. What was left was 2 threads out of the head. I am contemplating what to do next. I will try to remove the plug before I try & remove the head. Any other idea's would be appreciated. :thumbup:

Is it possible that your socket never reached the hex of the glow plug jacket and that you have not loosened the jacket at all? If you're lucky, maybe you need a deeper socket and that will succeed? If the engine will run and if there is no leak of exhaust around the glow plug jacket, then I would be encouraged about this possibility.

b1mmuo27
02-03-2008, 04:03 AM
I'm not too sure where you are located Doktor A, but here in Canada the owners manual does NOT mention glow plugs in the owners manual any where or for regular schedule maintenance. Again clearly marked under the hood is "OBD2 Compliant" I throughly understand CAN bus. I am an electrician with a communications license. This van was broken into the first week I owned it & I had 23K worth of tools stolen from it. It took me 2 years from that to devise a time delay switch that could be placed taking the drivers door lock circuit "out" to fool the Canbus but to make the van act factory. I also brought an alarm in from Norway which was suppose to talk to the canbus. Only thing was Mercedes changed the code when they shipped it to Canada so that didn't work. They also stopped the factory alarm with no explanation on the 2004-05 Sprinters sent here. Yes I have had my share of experiences with this van, glow plugs was not in my plans.
As the nut portion on the glow plug spins with the ratchet so does the impression that is was loosening. In fact it was just spinning. I have in my hand a replacement plug from champion. The treaded portion looks solid with the hex head. On the factory plug the hex head spun inside the shaft of the glow plug, thus giving the impression that the whole thing was turning. Wiggling it & pulling up also gave the impression of "pulling " the plug out. All that pulled out was the inner stem of the plug which the hex head was part off. The only thing left was the threaded portion of the glow plug including what you had show in your picture which was poking out the cylinder head. So what is left sticking up in the plug well is 2 threads from the body of the glow plug.

abittenbinder
02-03-2008, 04:18 AM
Again clearly marked under the hood is "OBD2 Compliant" I throughly understand CAN bus.

I have in my hand a replacement plug from champion. The treaded portion looks solid with the hex head.

All that pulled out was the inner stem of the plug which the hex head was part off. The only thing left was the threaded portion of the glow plug including what you had show in your picture which was poking out the cylinder head. So what is left sticking up in the plug well is 2 threads from the body of the glow plug.

Regarding "OBD2 Compliance", Only '08 and newer vehicles are required to have OBD via the CAN Bus(which 07 and '08 Sprinters use). Your '05 is OBD2 compliant but again, it is accomplished via K lines.

The treaded portion of the Bosch glow plug is also "solid with the head". Your glow plug sheared at that "2 thread" point.

And you're correct-no mention of glow plug preemptive replacement in maintenance pages. Doktor A

b1mmuo27
02-03-2008, 04:21 AM
6037
Thanks for you idea talkinghorse but the socket was the correct depth. Doktor A, here is what mean. The new plug is champion. The old plug that broke or sheared off is beside it. The hex portion was on this but must have dropped off in the garage. When I was turning the plug to remove it I was in fact shearing off the hex portion of it. When I pulled it out what was left was top 2 threads in the plug sticking up from the plug well. I can take a picture of it tomorrow in the light.

abittenbinder
02-03-2008, 04:27 AM
After seeing the above photo I suspect corrosion was a factor. Doktor A

05highroof
02-03-2008, 03:20 PM
How or where on the glow plug is the seal made to the combustion chamber?

b1mmuo27
02-03-2008, 04:01 PM
Not really sure. The threaded portion would be the last line of defense. I suppose looking at the plug that the tapered end with just the electrode exposed would be the "sealing" point.

mean_in_green
02-03-2008, 10:16 PM
...How far off are you from reaching the Big 1

Still some way Richard, I think it's at 730,000kms or thereabouts at the minute.

Once out to Italy, Switzerland and France last month straight after New Year (snow chains tested) then we went somewhere warm for January. We're off to Canada for ten days next week so the wheels aren't turning much at the minute. I expect a quiet start to the year and take full advantage!

Will be different in a few months time: not enough hours in the day then...

Simon

Altered Sprinter
02-03-2008, 10:27 PM
How are you going to drive over the pond:smilewink: 730.000 KM:clapping:
If your in Vancouver my son is there for a liitle longer so let me know and he'll take you on a little snow trip with a sKadooooooooooooooo:rad:
Richard
6048

6049

b1mmuo27
02-04-2008, 12:27 AM
This is my dilemma.6055

sikwan
02-04-2008, 12:48 AM
Geez! :eek:

I hope it's not the case, but it looks like you're going to have to remove the head.

Guess I'll be looking at mine at 50k.

b1mmuo27
02-04-2008, 12:49 AM
No, I am not pulling the head off yet. Does the US owners manual list the glow plugs to be changed at any interval?

talkinghorse43
02-04-2008, 02:04 AM
No mention in the owner's manual that I've seen. Since pulling the head is so expensive a proposition (might even need a new head), I'd think you'd want to explore all options first. I wonder if 4 working glow plugs would be enough? Also wonder if heating the engine before starting would make glow plugs unnecessary. If heating would work, could use the aux heater (if you have it). If you don't have the aux heater, could wire the booster heater (if you have it) to work like the aux heater. If you don't have the booster heater, could install an Espar heater to simulate the aux heater or an electric tank heater to heat the engine. If all 5 glow plugs in working order is an absolute must, then I would probably pull off the intake manifold (for better access) and work on removing that glow plug shell.

05highroof
02-04-2008, 02:21 AM
Any chance of using E-Z out tool?

Altered Sprinter
02-04-2008, 02:51 AM
under service B it does mention removal and cleaning of plugs re-install with anti-seize
lubricant two different reams to clean up depending on carbon build up.. Canada has the reference but it's on the data disc. My manual states main service B at 46 thousand kilometors to remove plugs inspect and clean to aviod possiable long term problems with seizure and to extend the life of the plug service indicator two spanners. there is a breif from MB stating fuel issues.

Richard

b1mmuo27
02-04-2008, 03:19 AM
Ohighroof- thats what I used & it broke. A four sided easy out. I even made a little heat shield for the plastics & used my mini oxy/acetalyne torch to heat it a little.
Altered Sprinter-thanks but they rushed these into Canada without doing a lot of research. Mechanics in the dealerships weren't trained yet. Their appears to be a lot of misinformation & lack off in the owners manual. Believe me I was the biggest fan of my van. Lately, I'm losing the faith. I have had 4 GM diesels & none of them had to have the glow plugs out at 50K. When I did pull them out at 100K they came out. I think these vans have been in your part of the world a lot longer than here. I have 2 Renault turbo diesels in my boat, direct injection, no glow plugs. Heated air intake. The van also has a heated fuel supply. It's just on those cold mornings when I come out of the igloo:laughing:lash the huskeys together & head for the van. No igloo but I do have a Siberian husky though.

abittenbinder
02-04-2008, 03:27 AM
After seeing the above photo I suspect corrosion was a factor. Doktor A

How about retrieving that broken hex portion of your glow plug from the shop floor and posting a close-up photo of it. Doktor A

b1mmuo27
02-04-2008, 03:31 AM
Hi Doktor A. I would if I could find it. It drop onto the driveway & I think it rolled into the snow. I'll look for it in the light tomorrow.

talkinghorse43
02-04-2008, 03:41 AM
Heating the glow plug shell is the wrong way to go. The way to go would be to get the engine to normal operating temp (~180F) and then spot cool the plug (ice water, liquid nitrogen, or others through a small tube inserted into the plug shell) to make it shrink away from the Al head. Since the head is massive and Al is a good conductor of heat, the metal around the plug should stay relatively hot while you cool the plug. But, of course, you have to work fast after cooling because the plug will quickly heat up again.

abittenbinder
02-04-2008, 03:50 AM
Ohighroof- thats what I used & it broke. A four sided easy out. I even made a little heat shield for the plastics & used my mini oxy/acetalyne torch to heat it a little.


How many other glow plugs have you attempted to remove? Your description of the initial "soft turn of the wrench "hints that this glow plug was severely weakened before removal even began. Is corrosion the culprit? Are any other plugs severely corroded?

Regarding removal of the "remains"-I would first remove the fuel injector to facilitate compressed air "clean-out" of the cylinder. Then I would position the piston well up the cylinder but not quite at TDC.

Purchase a small set of LEFT-hand drill bits from your Snap-on man. Choose your drill bit size(s) carefully from the set(you can measure the OD of your new injector threads) and pack the drill grooves with grease -to retain chips. Use a reversible electric drill at very slow speed.

With a little luck, the drill will "back-out" the remains before having to drill below the threaded boss length.

Use compressed air through the injector hole to blow out any loose debris. The above procedure of course assumes you have easy access or extended the drill bit(s) with a weld on extension. Doktor A

b1mmuo27
02-04-2008, 04:19 AM
Actually Doktor A tit doesn't look to be corroded. I thought it moved easily because of the WD 40 siting in the well for 2 days while driving it. Their is only the next one beside it that I believe is the same now, as it spins freely & wiggles the same. I can get a drill on it as it is & did. I had to use a carbide tip drill to drill the easy out. I cannot get reversible drills until tomorrow. As it is not blowing by I am good to go tomorrow. I will have to try these ideas on both cylinders tomorrow. I have found the nut portion from the glow plug but can;t seem to find the stem. I had it this morning....:hmmm: You can see that nut has cleanly sheared off, their is no real sign of corrosion, just grease.

b1mmuo27
02-04-2008, 04:25 AM
talkinghorse43 The block doesn't get too hot this time of year. I took it for a run on the highway before trying to extract it. You could put your hand on it & leave it. That's how cold it is. But according to the gauges it comes up to temperature. I heated the aluminum block in front of the well, the plug broke almost flush, no where to place anything cold.

talkinghorse43
02-04-2008, 04:45 AM
I was thinking of inserting a small tube into the hole that the center electrode once occupied and deliver the coolant through that tube. Since the head isn't hot, it would be best if the coolant were very cold. Or, if you could find a non-flammable refrigerant (maybe r-134a) or non-flammable high vapor pressure solvent in a spray can (like a WD-40 can with a plastic tube tip - I don't think WD-40 itself would work; vapor pressure isn't high enough), you could just stick that plastic tube into the hole and spray.

talkinghorse43
02-04-2008, 05:07 PM
Actually Doktor A tit doesn't look to be corroded. I thought it moved easily because of the WD 40 siting in the well for 2 days while driving it. Their is only the next one beside it that I believe is the same now, as it spins freely & wiggles the same. I can get a drill on it as it is & did. I had to use a carbide tip drill to drill the easy out. I cannot get reversible drills until tomorrow. As it is not blowing by I am good to go tomorrow. I will have to try these ideas on both cylinders tomorrow. I have found the nut portion from the glow plug but can;t seem to find the stem. I had it this morning....:hmmm: You can see that nut has cleanly sheared off, their is no real sign of corrosion, just grease.

Yes, it appears that the nut has sheared off at the joint where it may have been attached to the glow plug barrel by brazing or silver soldering. Probably over-torque caused it to shear - maybe on original assembly?

A question for Doktor A from those of us who may have waited too long (~127k miles on my '02 now) to remove glow plugs. The '03 service manual states that on assembly, the glow plugs should be torqued to 115 lbs-in. Probably removal torque will be higher, but how high can removal torque be without risking this type failure, or even worse, damage to the securing threads in the head? I'm thinking that in my case I could attempt to remove my glow plugs while monitoring removal torque with my bar-type torque wrench and if no luck by the estimated max torque, wait for a glow plug failure before attempting more drastic measures.

SprintED
02-04-2008, 06:00 PM
I now have to add complicated glow plug replacement every two years/50,000 to my list of things to FIX on my sprinter...with the added risk of glow plug breakage/head removal/lots of $$$$:eek::eek::eek::eek:

It is still a puzzle to me as to how a vehicle that is supposed to be super durable and has a 300,000+ KM inservice rating, can have so many things that need constant attention/repair?

Anyone thought of compiling a list of all these nice "not found in the owners manual etc..." maintenance issues so we can keep track of them all?:hmmm:


Ed

mean_in_green
02-04-2008, 07:05 PM
The reality is that your glow plugs will probably last as long as you keep the van.

Mine have lasted 730,000kms so far, and I've done the last 230,000kms (or so) with one of them not working at all.

They're only for starting it - if it can do that don't lose sleep over it.

Simon

northener
02-04-2008, 07:24 PM
I expect(hope) to pass my 2006 to my children. 50,000 miles was just suggested as a maintenance schedule for the glow plugs. That seems short and what is the maintenance to be.
Should the plugs be pulled, greased, and re-assembled if they do have a life virtually of the vehicle but late replacement is sure to bring heartaches?
I have sorta penciled into my head that at 80k my vehicle will be about three years old and was going to have them pulled and inspected.
Ideas anyone?

abittenbinder
02-04-2008, 08:46 PM
Yes, it appears that the nut has sheared off at the joint where it may have been attached to the glow plug barrel by brazing or silver soldering. Probably over-torque caused it to shear - maybe on original assembly?

A question for Doktor A from those of us who may have waited too long (~127k miles on my '02 now) to remove glow plugs. The '03 service manual states that on assembly, the glow plugs should be torqued to 115 lbs-in. Probably removal torque will be higher, but how high can removal torque be without risking this type failure, or even worse, damage to the securing threads in the head? I'm thinking that in my case I could attempt to remove my glow plugs while monitoring removal torque with my bar-type torque wrench and if no luck by the estimated max torque, wait for a glow plug failure before attempting more drastic measures.

The hex head is not "brazed or soldered"- the body is one machined piece. Our group member with the broken plug problem claims almost no torque when his sheared.

If you have the cylinder head at operating temp and use a short length 3/8 drive wrench, you likely won't have problems. I have loosened glow plugs with much more break-away torque than the actual specified tightening torque without failure. Doktor A

abittenbinder
02-04-2008, 08:53 PM
I expect(hope) to pass my 2006 to my children. 50,000 miles was just suggested as a maintenance schedule for the glow plugs. That seems short and what is the maintenance to be.
Should the plugs be pulled, greased, and re-assembled if they do have a life virtually of the vehicle but late replacement is sure to bring heartaches?
I have sorta penciled into my head that at 80k my vehicle will be about three years old and was going to have them pulled and inspected.
Ideas anyone?

50K sounds premature to me, as well. When you do have them removed, there really is no "inspection"-their operational status can be determined while they are still installed. Once removed for "exercising" and anti-seize treatment you may want to consider replacement instead. Purchased from after market sources- the Bosch glow plugs are not very expensive. Doktor A

b1mmuo27
02-05-2008, 12:47 AM
I think the question that should be addressed is why the vehicle was designed to NEED the glow plugs to be REMOVED at 50K regardless of status, working or not. Seems to me the more I thought of it, this is Daimler's problem not mine. Doubly true since it's not in the maintenance schedule or owners manual in Canada. I was sold on the fact it could go 18K between oil changes, got 30 MPG (Canadian) & was virtually maintenance free for the first 1/2 million kilometers. Only problem being you need to change the fuel filter every second oil change, but let's not put on removable clamps on the filter hoses. You know I have had the chance to take apart a BMW before & ALL the bolts holding it together had anti seize on it. Every single one. Yet Daimler couldn't afford any on the glow plugs when they put them in at the factory. Yet I'm suppose to pull them at 50K because of this?:thumbdown:

abittenbinder
02-05-2008, 01:16 AM
I think the question that should be addressed is why the vehicle was designed to NEED the glow plugs to be REMOVED at 50K regardless of status, working or not.

Where did this 50K come from? Doktor A

05highroof
02-05-2008, 01:29 AM
Only problem being you need to change the fuel filter every second oil change, but let's not put on removable clamps on the filter hoses.
I reuse the factory clamps on my fuel filter:thumbup:

b1mmuo27
02-05-2008, 01:29 AM
Doktor A-Where are you located? Do you work for Daimler? I used a 1/4" ratchet to remove or shear the glow plugs. From the top of the hex nut down body of the glow plug is one piece as you can see on the new champion plug. The electrode is sticking out from the bottom of that. From there up, it's an insert for the electrode. I would say the plug is made in 3 pieces. I challenge your remark regarding "easily" removed with a 3/8" wrench. Shall I do a video with a torque wrench to prove you wrong? Shall we use the rating 115 lbs-in the talkinghorse43 is quoting. There is no corrosion on the plugs. Here is a picture of the engine. I keep it pretty clean. Did you know that the fuel injection pressure is uped when the vehicles are brought into Canada? That the way they could meet the emission standards. When I picked up my Sprinter from the dealership new, both head lights didn't work. Straight from the factory the dealership claimed. Could a robot have over torqued the glow plugs?:thinking:6063

6064

6065

6066

b1mmuo27
02-05-2008, 01:44 AM
Doktor A- Altered Sprinter remarked the manual he is going by suggests the 48K for removing & inspecting the glow plugs. I agree when they are a problem like I have pull them out. I don't think they should be replaced as they are fried. Rather as a set, whether at 55K or 155K. I'm just glad we have forums to whine & complain about & find information too.:thumbup:

b1mmuo27
02-05-2008, 01:53 AM
I reuse the factory clamps on my fuel filter:thumbup:

05highroof, how do you reuse factory crimped clamps on the fuel lines?:thinking:

abittenbinder
02-05-2008, 01:56 AM
The hex head is not "brazed or soldered"- the body is one machined piece. Our group member with the broken plug problem claims almost no torque when his sheared.

If you have the cylinder head at operating temp and use a short length 3/8 drive wrench, you likely won't have problems. I have loosened glow plugs with much more break-away torque than the actual specified tightening torque without failure. Doktor A

Where in the above quote did I say "easily"? There's nothing "easy" about this procedure. The access is horrific, your heart is pounding as you apply torque to each glow plug waiting for a "snap"-which thankfully, usually, doesn't come.

As I said-most owners likely won't have removal problems-I'm sorry to hear you did. From what you initially described, your glow plug sheared with little or no torque-that's unusual.

I don't want to see group members overly paranoid about some arbitrarily chosen replacement interval. Doktor A

b1mmuo27
02-05-2008, 02:20 AM
Where in the above quote did I say "easily"? There's nothing "easy" about this procedure. The access is horrific, your heart is pounding as you apply torque to each glow plug waiting for a "snap"-which thankfully, usually, doesn't come.

As I said-most owners likely won't have removal problems-I'm sorry to hear you did. From what you initially described, your glow plug sheared with little or no torque-that's unusual.

I don't want to see group members overly paranoid about some arbitrarily chosen replacement interval. Doktor A

Two blown headlights from the factory that's unusual too. Paying the dealership PDI fee's when the vehical was new, that's criminal as they shoudaaa caught this. Just proves PDI is just a money grab.
Normal operating temperature could be a wide ranging scale. In -15C temperatures the block could be warm to touch. In 30C temperatures the block could too hot to touch. A 30Km hike at highway speeds of 120K should & does bring the engine up to operating temperature but it's still cold. Woodaaa, shuodaaa, couldaaa doesn't exist in my world. What could go wrong, does. If you said it was easy mine would be hard. Serpentine belt replacement on this van was easy. Brake pad replacement was easy. Getting a North American alarm to work on this was hard. I did but I had to make my own switch to make it work. Glow plug replacement should be too. Access is wide open. Going in knowing what I do now may have changed the way I did it. I still have 1 more plug sheared off but i still have 3 that I haven't touched yet. Still pondering the action to be taken. :thinking:

talkinghorse43
02-05-2008, 02:21 AM
The hex head is not "brazed or soldered"- the body is one machined piece.Doktor A

The last pic in that group showing a side view of the sheared-off nut looks so much like a tubing fitting nut. If you're familiar with them, like nuts from the tubing fitting brands Swagelok or Tylok. Seems strange to me the nut would shear at a plane displaced from the plane of the edge of the hex faces unless there was a plane of weakness there (brazed joint). I believe it was noted that the glow plug is nickel plated - might be difficult to see a brazed joint under a coating.

b1mmuo27
02-05-2008, 02:27 AM
The last pic in that group showing a side view of the sheared-off nut looks so much like a tubing fitting nut. If you're familiar with them, like nuts from the tubing fitting brands Swagelok or Tylok. Seems strange to me the nut would shear at a plane displaced from the plane of the edge of the hex faces unless there was a plane of weakness there (brazed joint). I believe it was noted that the glow plug is nickel plated - might be difficult to see a brazed joint under a coating.

Actually no. I have the champion one in my hand now. That is one piece, from the nut to the part where the electrode sticks out. I count 11 threads which would give about a 1/4" contact in the head. I know th rate of expansion is different for the aluminum vs the steel or nickel plated steel. I'm still trying to find if their is a corrosive reaction over time between the two different metals or why they are so tightly held in.:idunno:

abittenbinder
02-05-2008, 02:41 AM
My Sprinter has 135K on it. It's an '05 bought in December '04.
The engine was at normal operating temperature & brute force was not needed. The front plug almost was finger tight. But now I know that it was just turning in the sleeve.

The big mystery remains: You initially wrote-"I'm still trying to find if there is a corrosive reaction over time between the two different metals or why they are so tightly held in".

If this glow plug is seized and you never applied the excess (or any?) torque to shear it-When did it shear and why ??? Doktor A

contractor
02-05-2008, 02:53 AM
Andy
Just a thought. In my automotive days, it was very important to post bake a nickel plated part to prevent hydrogen embrittlement. Hydrogen embrittlement severly weakens a part by making it much less ductile and reducing the tensile strength ... it short it can fail. I'm wondering if maybe this part(s) were not properly processed by the supplier? Perhaps changing the plugs at 50K is not necessary (I sure hope so because it sounds like a bear). I know this doesn't help the issue with the broken plug but it does offer some possible explanation. I am a big believer of moly anti seize grease, however, after reading this thread the whole procedure scares me:wtf:.

b1mmuo27
02-05-2008, 02:53 AM
When removing things ie the glow plugs force is a relative thing. How much is always the question. While increasing torque the plug starts to move. I will remind you I have taken glow plugs from a GM 6.5ltr & 6.2ltr diesel. They are in a cast steel block & they themselves are made of steel. A third of the size of these glow plugs. Not having removed them I applied enough torque to have them move. How much? I don't know as I didn't use a torque wrench. But if I thought they would shear that easily something would have changed. As a creature of habit my only reference was the plugs in the GM. These are longer & I would suggest not near as robust in design. Was their other design choices? Could the make up air have been heated? As I have said my Renault turbo diesels are started that way. They are essentially a MACK block marinized by Renault.:hmmm:

b1mmuo27
02-05-2008, 03:01 AM
Andy
Just a thought. In my automotive days, it was very important to post bake a nickel plated part to prevent hydrogen embrittlement. Hydrogen embrittlement severly weakens a part by making it much less ductile and reducing the tensile strength ... it short it can fail. I'm wondering if maybe this part(s) were not properly processed by the supplier? Perhaps changing the plugs at 50K is not necessary (I sure hope so because it sounds like a bear). I know this doesn't help the issue with the broken plug but it does offer some possible explanation. I am a big believer of moly anti seize grease, however, after reading this thread the whole procedure scares me:wtf:.

I too am an contractor-electrical. I won't say it's easy, but to think your going to put a 10mm 1/4" deep socket on those glow plugs & just screw them out I think you should be aware of what could happen. Doktor A: would a torque wrench set at ? to remove these things be now advisable? If they don't crack out at that torque setting then don't proceed without thinking of how to loosen them or you'll end up like me. :clapping:

contractor
02-05-2008, 03:15 AM
I don't know if what I'm about to propose is even possible, but I bought a makita 18V impact driver and I love this thing. It takes so much less effort to install and remove screws because of the impact mode. It also easily takes wallboard screws out were an ordinary drill would twist the head off the screw. Is there room to use a tool like this instead of the standard rachet wrench?

b1mmuo27
02-05-2008, 03:25 AM
I don't know if what I'm about to propose is even possible, but I bought a makita 18V impact driver and I love this thing. It takes so much less effort to install and remove screws because of the impact mode. It also easily takes wallboard screws out were an ordinary drill would twist the head off the screw. Is there room to use a tool like this instead of the standard rachet wrench?
I've got a Milwaukee 18Volt lithium impact driver as well. I tried it. You could try too but I think the pounding by the impact driver wouldn't have the same desired effect on the glow plug as just straight torque & I think the torque on these plugs would be a little greater than what the driver could apply. There is definitely enough room if you have the 2.7, at least on the first 2 pulgs you just need an extention to get on them. BTW Milwaukee has that new cordless lithium screwdriver too. That's the greatest thing since sliced bread. :thumbup:

Altered Sprinter
02-05-2008, 04:13 AM
If you guys are really interested, I will underwrite in part as to the data that pertains to separate countries as to no one data file being identical etc. Daimler AG has extensive archival information that shows in this instance,as to why a recommendation is suggested for pre-preventive failures with glow plugs it is one of many issues that Daimler AG deals with at different intervals with data ,for maintenance schedules.

The PDF is encrypted so I can not down load this , for general viewing as to Daimler AG information for x amount of reasoning but where not copyright is so concerned, but to Daimler AG' protecting their intellectual rights to technologies. In brief as modern computer systems expanding with data, there is an ever increasing demand with data information as each year passes, the data is added to which increases the likely hood of errors via a computer command systems we have these on the NAG transmission etc.

Diagnostics for Germany, Australia N/America South Africa,etc use different parameter's of data for engine maintenance for each region, based on Temperature , Elevation, fuel quality, and oils etc, this is just a snippet as to How advanced an engine program can be altered to a region.

Daimler has been working on this for a fool proof error free system it is in part already operating on another vehicle of Mercedes-Benz vehicles commercial unit.

One can only program a system if the system is working in synergy with it's programs that have been throughly tested. that comply to a rating of tolerances elevations of temperatures with the correct fuel bar set, in part Fuel in the N/American sector has been an issue as to being inconsistent. as to extreme variations of the ASTM standards, Winter is an issue and there is a full quotation from D AG that covers this in full.

I could equally argue as to dealer ships failing to pass on informations to it's staff and technical work force. or say it maybe was never read! or understood in part...Dealers can apply for training programs..and for updated information this is not free, there is a minimal charge for the service, to cover the basic costs of the programs for it's students!who wish to advance in the increasing technology of learnings from Daimler AG ....It is not free.

This does entail equipment to be upgraded another cost! the dealer has to pay for this, if it's not done then how can a mechanic or technician throughly commit to undertake, said works in a professional manor if the operative has not been fully trained, and or provided with a continuance of upgraded information, and the correct tools of technology that is required to execute the works be it a repair, or an electronic reset.

If you want a write up I will do it over a two day period as to cutting the information down 5 thousand pages I can not do, I can also help to explain in part,, as to where errors come into play from programming etc.
Canada has temperature elevations as to seasonal changes to deal with, High sulfur fuels even with ULSD if it's being used bearing in mind the ULSD fuel is recent as opposed to extremely poor quality Diesel, that has no additive provided to help keep the engine in prime operating conditions.
This is not a Daimler AG problem with the Sprinters proper, but as to NAFTA agreements for local content, and how the sprinter was set for the N/American system.
The Sprinter is not perfect, but the problem to correct procedures of servicing,is underlying with tiered Management and it's own policies. that conflict to D AG and it's operations.
A mechanic technician can take up to seven years to learn his trade that covers every single section to service and maintain a Mercedes-Benz group of varied products these guys earn top dollar and have earned the right to command a high wage return any Fully qualified MB trained operative can demand his own wage:rad: especially in Diesel engines after eight years of being on the job, He or she does his apprenticeship, and the world is his oyster if he or she so chooses to pursue a career of advancement with-in the ranks of Daimler AG and it's extensive network of design manufacturing ,and with in partnership with it's aligned subsidiary's, are available world-wide, to put you in a start position from the shop floor, that can take you to the very top of the COE's. 4 years of low wages, after hours studying exams you name it...these guys, deserve the respect they are entilled to..They worked for it and the rewards that follows. Listen to the Doctor=Andy
Richard.
Augmented reality, a virtual on-line world to knowalge.

6067

abittenbinder
02-05-2008, 06:11 AM
When removing things ie the glow plugs force is a relative thing. How much is always the question. While increasing torque the plug starts to move.

Not having removed them I applied enough torque to have them move. How much? I don't know as I didn't use a torque wrench. But if I thought they would shear that easily something would have changed.

Upon your clarification-there is no mystery.

You thought you had "broken loose" the 2 glow plugs but had actually sheared them. You then thought you had fully unscrewed them and were baffled - for some reason they would not come out of their bores-that's when you posted your plea for help. They were actually spinning in their sheared bottom halves.

It is likely they were not weakened (or flawed) before the removal attempt-rather it is highly likely the cyl head was not warmed enough(winter temps) and because of that, too much force was applied to the wrench-shearing the plugs.

It's a shame this scenario was repeated with the second glow plug. At least it's now limited to two. Doktor A

acvr4
02-05-2008, 02:00 PM
Wow I guess I better be real careful when I check mine :hmmm:
Since it's an not a constant problem I haven't addressed it.
It's great that you guys have post the procedure on the best way to remove them :thumbup:

abittenbinder
02-05-2008, 04:14 PM
My you-tube savvy son found this today. The featured tool kit likely costs more than a Sprinter replacement engine. Doktor A

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=koghDoROFko

talkinghorse43
02-05-2008, 04:38 PM
My you-tube savvy son found this today. The featured tool kit likely costs more than a Sprinter replacement engine. Doktor A


Great find! In addition to the expensive tooling, this would be hell to attempt in place; looks hard enough on the bench. If I absolutely had to remove the offending glow plug, I would certainly try drilling a little to allow the biggest possible backout, then cooling with liquid nitrogen and attempting with the backout first.

abittenbinder
02-05-2008, 06:05 PM
My you-tube savvy son found this today. The featured tool kit likely costs more than a Sprinter replacement engine. Doktor A


Yes- it would not be possible to perform this extraction of a glow plug in the rear cylinders with the Sprinter engine in place. Even the removal of a fuel injector in the rear 2 cylinders requires lowering the engine for working clearance. Doktor A

05highroof
02-05-2008, 10:38 PM
05highroof, how do you reuse factory crimped clamps on the fuel lines?
b1mmuo27, the factory "crimped" clamps on my filter (usa) actually hook together. (maybe yours do also) I've read that there is a special pair of pliers for reattaching them but I've been able to re-hook them with a pair of linemans pliers.Good luck with your glow plug issue.

sikwan
02-05-2008, 11:12 PM
b1mmuo27, the factory "crimped" clamps on my filter (usa) actually hook together. (maybe yours do also) I've read that there is a special pair of pliers for reattaching them but I've been able to re-hook them with a pair of linemans pliers.Good luck with your glow plug issue.

http://sprinter-source.com/forum/showpost.php?p=16976&postcount=11

The clamps are certainly reuseable, although I didn't with mine.

b1mmuo27
02-05-2008, 11:44 PM
My you-tube savvy son found this today. The featured tool kit likely costs more than a Sprinter replacement engine. Doktor A


Well thank your son for that Doktor A. I am a tool junkie but not quite ready for that.:drool: As for me, complaining & listening at the same time, I am going to try & remove the front glow plug. That's the one with the easy out snapped flush with the bottom of the plug well. I have tried a little drilling with a carbide drill bit. Once I have the remainder of it out & I am back to the hollow shaft of the glow plug that's when I will sit down & decide what to do next. I do have a reverse drill bit I could try. :thinking:Thanks for all the input & I'll let you know what happens. PS I have to be careful as this is my only means of transportation.

abittenbinder
02-06-2008, 01:29 AM
Well thank your son for that Doktor A. I am a tool junkie but not quite ready for that.:drool:

I do have a reverse drill bit I could try. :thinking:Thanks for all the input & I'll let you know what happens. PS I have to be careful as this is my only means of transportation.

The tool kit is made by Klann tools of the UK. I'll check and see if MBenz Auto dealerships are issued these or something similar to it. However, except for the glow plug core extractor, the tool kit somewhat follows the procedures we discussed. Doktor A

b1mmuo27
02-06-2008, 01:54 AM
The tool kit is made by Klann tools of the UK. I'll check and see if MBenz Auto dealerships are issued these or something similar to it. However, except for the glow plug core extractor, the tool kit somewhat follows the procedures we discussed. Doktor A

Thanks.

SprintED
02-06-2008, 04:02 AM
Wow...That was like watching surgery on TLC....:eek:

$100 bucks says my dealership has no such kit nor anything similar for extracting glowplugs....I am guessing a set of EZ outs is all they may have.

ED

abittenbinder
02-06-2008, 09:50 PM
Received a reply from Klann Tools of the UK.

"Thank you for your enquiry. This tool is 1530.41 plus VAT and takes
around 3 weeks for delivery from the receipt of your order.

Please let me know if you have any further questions.

Regards

Ewan Shaw"

Not quite as expensive as I had expected, but again, this is a tool kit for a MBenz auto dealership or a high volume Sprinter engine rebuilder. We don't have the necessary engine compartment access. Doktor A

b1mmuo27
02-06-2008, 10:04 PM
Received a reply from Klann Tools of the UK.

"Thank you for your enquiry. This tool is 1530.41 plus VAT and takes
around 3 weeks for delivery from the receipt of your order.

Please let me know if you have any further questions.

Regards

Ewan Shaw"

Not quite as expensive as I had expected, but again, this is a tool kit for a MBenz auto dealership or a high volume Sprinter engine rebuilder. We don't have the necessary engine compartment access. Doktor A

Wow. How bout 20 of us kick in from the web site $150.00 Canadian, send it to me I'll send it a neutral site, somewhere in the middle of North America. For that I'll throw in a circuit board I designed that will allow 2004-2006 Sprinters to work a North American after market alarm as factory installed. No effect on the Canbus or light flash etc.:thumbup:

Altered Sprinter
02-06-2008, 11:53 PM
Mercedes-Brazil
How to remove injectors! sort of goes with the son of the Doctors clip to complete the thread.
Video about Common Rail Injection on Sprinter 311 CDI (Portuguese) (http://www.injetronic.com.br/diesel/)
Richard

b1mmuo27
02-07-2008, 12:23 AM
Mercedes-Brazil
How to remove injectors! sort of goes with the son of the Doctors clip to complete the thread.
Video about Common Rail Injection on Sprinter 311 CDI (Portuguese) (http://www.injetronic.com.br/diesel/)
Richard

Cool. Little rusty on my Portuguese. That little tool doesn't look too hard to make. My 2.7 doesn't look like that though.:hmmm:

b1mmuo27
02-07-2008, 12:24 AM
How bout a video on head replacement, just in case.:thumbup:

Altered Sprinter
02-07-2008, 12:51 AM
That's not that hard to find:smilewink: Look at my original objectives to your seized glow plug or plugs
Mercedes suggest this source at three service levels up to 100 thousand kilometers.
as a preventative to remove clean injectors, fuel related.. causing! what you are now experiencing, cleaning =flushing out the head to remove carbon deposits.
Bosch has this in the archives which Mercedes has and has addressed,which also relates to fuel and carbon buildup . it suggests not to reuse the basket as to to it being suspect, to contain particle contaminants, saying replace complete unit, that effect the fuel spray pattern which changes the fuel delivered resulting in a leaser fuel burn, unburnt fuel! results in longer term engine maintenance issues, related failures from fuel contaminants, are preventative!.. with alternative B maintenance schedules, this is showing on the threads all over the forum at the moment due to severe weather and temperatures variations Diesel winter grade does not met the required cetane level to operate the Mercedes Sprinter to it's maximum capacity.
On the early Sprinter from 1995 to 2002 Australia had similar problems as to low grade fuels and carbon contamination, since 2002 with adding injection cleaners to fuel and with fuel companies adding lubricants to compensate for lubricity loss there have been almost zero issues that are fuel related, Failed injectors are rare, Glow plugs are not seizing it takes one and half hours to service an engine in the engine bay with out removal of the engine.
Different countries, different strokes But it works. I am only suggesting to look outside of the square, for alternative options.
Richard.

talkinghorse43
02-07-2008, 03:29 AM
Wow. How bout 20 of us kick in from the web site $150.00 Canadian, send it to me I'll send it a neutral site, somewhere in the middle of North America. For that I'll throw in a circuit board I designed that will allow 2004-2006 Sprinters to work a North American after market alarm as factory installed. No effect on the Canbus or light flash etc.:thumbup:

In case you didn't notice, the below method was recommended in a comment to the video that Doktor A's son found:

http://alan.mcreynolds.googlepages.com/howtoremovebrokenglowplugs-mercedesom606

abittenbinder
02-07-2008, 06:46 AM
In case you didn't notice, the below method was recommended in a comment to the video that Doktor A's son found:

http://alan.mcreynolds.googlepages.com/howtoremovebrokenglowplugs-mercedesom606

I saw that comment and procedure-here's a quote from it-

"The OM60x series of 4 valve Mercedes diesels are notorious for seizing glow plugs. Apparently the plugs don't seat properly at the combustion chamber end. This allows carbon to get packed in around the barrel. Over time the plugs become glued into place. The narrow neck between the hex nut and the threaded shaft isn't up to the task of untwisting the plug and it snaps off. The problem has nothing to do with the threads sticking, though the aluminum steel combination can't be helping".

I have a few issues with that statement.

First-"don't seat properly at the combustion chamber end"?

Well, they're not designed to seat at that end for a very good reason! If you look at the previous photos of the glow plug (and someone had asked about this) the actual "seat" is that small taper at the base of the outer shell. If the glow plug "seated properly" at the combustion chamber- it would not be able to heat its element-the contact with the aluminum head would dissipate its heat.

Second, "carbon packed in around the barrel glues the plug in place"?

The slender tip(he calls it a barrel) is not actually cemented by carbon deposits. It is smooth, tapered and small diameter. I have not seen serious carbon deposits here. I suspect the treads are the prime culprit due to surface area and age related issues.

He does have some $$$ related short cuts for removal that are noteworthy-but he has the luxury of easy access in the passenger car engine compartments. Doktor A

Altered Sprinter
02-07-2008, 07:18 AM
Again Thank you Doctor A
This is a pictorial reference as to fuel issues in the United States, with carbon build up! which reduces, the related fuel burn, thus reducing the engines capacity to perform. time and age will increase particle build up. dependent on fuel source.and as to how engine command values can adjust to extreme temperature elevations.
Mercedes Sprinters require a 46 CN level to effectively operate. winter grade fuels as low as 36CN depending from where, and how it was produced. delivered via pipe lines as to which grade of oils,used for processing of fuels.. High sulphuric content, lacking lubricity as to no additives added to bring fuels up to a Cetane level of 46CN minimum that mets the basic ASTM-D-975 current ASTM-D_975a 46CN EN -590a
ASTM D6 890 is not due for processing for the US untill 2009.


Richard
6137

6138

talkinghorse43
02-07-2008, 03:29 PM
I saw that comment and procedure-here's a quote from it-

"The OM60x series of 4 valve Mercedes diesels are notorious for seizing glow plugs. Apparently the plugs don't seat properly at the combustion chamber end. This allows carbon to get packed in around the barrel. Over time the plugs become glued into place. The narrow neck between the hex nut and the threaded shaft isn't up to the task of untwisting the plug and it snaps off. The problem has nothing to do with the threads sticking, though the aluminum steel combination can't be helping".

I have a few issues with that statement.

First-"don't seat properly at the combustion chamber end"?

Well, they're not designed to seat at that end for a very good reason! If you look at the previous photos of the glow plug (and someone had asked about this) the actual "seat" is that small taper at the base of the outer shell. If the glow plug "seated properly" at the combustion chamber- it would not be able to heat its element-the contact with the aluminum head would dissipate its heat.

Second, "carbon packed in around the barrel glues the plug in place"?

The slender tip(he calls it a barrel) is not actually cemented by carbon deposits. It is smooth, tapered and small diameter. I have not seen serious carbon deposits here. I suspect the treads are the prime culprit due to surface area and age related issues.

He does have some $$$ related short cuts for removal that are noteworthy-but he has the luxury of easy access in the passenger car engine compartments. Doktor A

I thought the same that the tapered seat area (similar to a tapered seal spark plug) would seal and not allow any deposits on the barrel section between there and the threads. Therefore, it was puzzling to me, when I watched the video, to see what looked like carbon deposits in that area on the glow plug shell that they extracted. Maybe not all glow plugs seal at the tapered seal as they were designed to do (installation or manufacturing errors/defects)? Maybe those that do seal as designed are those that can be removed without shearing the nut? Maybe those that don't seal as designed are the ones that can't be removed the normal way?

abittenbinder
02-07-2008, 04:02 PM
I thought the same that the tapered seat area (similar to a tapered seal spark plug) would seal and not allow any deposits on the barrel section between there and the threads. Therefore, it was puzzling to me, when I watched the video, to see what looked like carbon deposits in that area on the glow plug shell that they extracted. Maybe not all glow plugs seal at the tapered seal as they were designed to do (installation or manufacturing errors/defects)? Maybe those that do seal as designed are those that can be removed without shearing the nut? Maybe those that don't seal as designed are the ones that can't be removed the normal way?

The tapered seal seat of the glow plug is the only "stop" the glow plug has when installing. There is no other seat at the treaded head.

If you look closely at the extracted outer shell on the video you can clearly see the clean, shiny tapered seat on the plug-he rotates it for full viewing.

I do not believe the discoloration seen above that seat is "leaking" carbon deposits nor of any significance to plug seizure-The chamber in that area is just too large.

That cyl head glow plug seat is a critical surface that is machined and faced with a reamer- That's not going to get past quality inspection in the numbers you theorize.

The tapered seat in the head is clearly visible(via surface finish) once the plug is removed. Our Canadian friend can report his seat condition when he extracts his plug remains. Doktor A

b1mmuo27
02-08-2008, 02:28 AM
http://alan.mcreynolds.googlepages.com/howtoremovebrokenglowplugs-mercedesom606
Well, well, well this has certainly sparked some interesting debate. My choice would be to try the above method of extraction. I don't see any other option. Of course I still have to get past one that still has the broken 4 sided easy out. The one beside it I could try as the three remaining non broken plugs I will still contemplate the best approach to them. :thumbup:

Altered Sprinter
02-08-2008, 02:31 AM
looking forward to this one:clapping: Pics please
Richard:popcorn:

sikwan
02-08-2008, 02:50 AM
You know you want to remove the head! :smilewink: :laughing:

talkinghorse43
02-08-2008, 04:13 PM
http://alan.mcreynolds.googlepages.com/howtoremovebrokenglowplugs-mercedesom606
Well, well, well this has certainly sparked some interesting debate. My choice would be to try the above method of extraction. I don't see any other option. Of course I still have to get past one that still has the broken 4 sided easy out. The one beside it I could try as the three remaining non broken plugs I will still contemplate the best approach to them. :thumbup:

I don't like the word "debate". I view what has happened here as a very interesting discussion that has resulted in a much better understanding (for me at least) of a solution to a possible problem (glow plug failure) I might have down the road (I fully intend to drive my Sprinter until the wheels fall off, or I can't climb into the seat anymore).

Concerning the broken easyout. I think you said you have a mini oxyacetylene torch? If so, maybe you could focus the flame & heat the easyout remnant hot enough to either expand it so much that it's loose when cool or anneal/soften it so that it's easier to drill out?

hkpierce
02-08-2008, 06:06 PM
I notice that Klann also has a glow plug puller - but it seems to be for after the glow plug has been loosened: KL-0369-201 A

located at: http://www.klann-online.de/englisch/Produkte/Chapter_6.pdf

and www.germanautomotivetools.com claims that both this tool and the set shown in the video can be ordered through them (something over $2000 for the set). Depending on its cost, for those who haven't been thoroghly intimidated by this thread, it might be advantagious for those willing to do this job themselves.

b1mmuo27
02-09-2008, 06:07 PM
I don't like the word "debate". I view what has happened here as a very interesting discussion that has resulted in a much better understanding (for me at least) of a solution to a possible problem (glow plug failure) I might have down the road (I fully intend to drive my Sprinter until the wheels fall off, or I can't climb into the seat anymore).

Concerning the broken easyout. I think you said you have a mini oxyacetylene torch? If so, maybe you could focus the flame & heat the easyout remnant hot enough to either expand it so much that it's loose when cool or anneal/soften it so that it's easier to drill out?

Debate:discuss the pros and cons of an issue, this is dictionary definition. Exactly what forums are for.:clapping:

Swffer29
04-15-2008, 07:36 PM
Thanks for all the advice in this thread, my bro and I changed out the four glow plugs in our sprinter after the warning light came on about a fortnight ago.

Heres what we did, outside temp is about 10 degrees celcius here in Northern Ireland.
Took the van for a quick spin to warm the engine. When we got back we took the cover of the engine (10-12 hex bolts) and found the glow plugs tucked away in with an electronic cap on.

Removed the cap with snub nose pliers as suggested, got a 10mm extra long bit and extended ratchet in to reach. Gently undid all four with the one at the back under the bonnet being the most tricky.
Checked them all by using some wire that we connected to the negative and the positive on the battery and the plug. Found only one was working which was funny as the van had no trouble starting (probably are mild climate).

I went to our local merc parts dealer (they know us well :hmmm: ) and got four glow plugs, the dealer confirmed there was definitly only four on our 313. I asked about the relay and was told that if the lights (in the dash) still on after the change of plugs then to swap out the relay (its under the vehicle battery).
Four glow plugs were 66 and the relay would have cost 90 or so I think.

Once it was all back together we started it up and the light stayed on permantly - bugger. Turned it on and off a couple of times left it for ten minutes started it again and hey presto back to normal. Apparently the computer needs to reset itself or something like that.

So overall a good result was had, cause we were thinking it would have been mega expensive to get it done in the garage and I think it only took us about two and a half hours in total.

Once again thanks to all in this thread as we probably wouldn't have attempted it otherwise.
Cheers :cheers:

poiuytrewq
04-15-2008, 08:01 PM
Proceed with caution. The pliers are simply used to make removal and reattchment of the electrical connector-relatively pain free. You can make up your own deep socket/universal joint/short extension combination to access the glow plugs themselves. You need to be forewarned that extraordinary dexterity and patience are called for - you need to be extremely careful when attempting to loosen the old glow plugs-they're quite slim and could shear, if seized in place. If that happens-well you know the rest. I would recommend you perform this procedure when cyl. head is quite warm and don't rush your work. Also be sure your problems are not caused by a faulty glow plug module. Andy

ABITTENBINDER- i was wondering about your recommendation, about removing the glow plugs with the engine warm. It seems from your posts that you are very knowledgeable about the working of these engines and repair procedures. I have a ford f150- that has to be over-night cold when removing the spark plugs or you risk taking the threads out with the plug. This process is opposite of your recommendation, although the f-150 head is aluminum and the plug is steel- just as the sprinter engine is. I was wondering if you have personally done this procedure on this engine? or if you got the info from someone that does it this way. I know i am being very cautious, but if i snap one of these ill be out of work till i have it repaired properly. Any info would be a great help to me.
W

abittenbinder
04-16-2008, 03:13 AM
ABITTENBINDER- i was wondering about your recommendation, about removing the glow plugs with the engine warm. It seems from your posts that you are very knowledgeable about the working of these engines and repair procedures. I have a ford f150- that has to be over-night cold when removing the spark plugs or you risk taking the threads out with the plug. This process is opposite of your recommendation, although the f-150 head is aluminum and the plug is steel- just as the sprinter engine is. I was wondering if you have personally done this procedure on this engine? or if you got the info from someone that does it this way. I know i am being very cautious, but if i snap one of these ill be out of work till i have it repaired properly. Any info would be a great help to me.
W

I have no experience with the Ford spark plug thread issue but I have seen numerous repair kits for the problem in trade journals-so it must be prevalent.

The potential minefield awaiting a Sprinter technician performing glow plug replacement involves stuck glow plugs and possible breakage if forced. Stripped threads are not the primary issue or concern here. Thus I recommend heating of the cyl head (by running the engine to operating temp) before attempting removal.

Because of limited access -the repair tools available to a Mercedes auto technician are of limited use in the Sprinter's engine compartment. The Mercedes auto technician can easily deal with broken glow plugs and damage to threads in the cyl head. Doktor A

b1mmuo27
04-17-2008, 04:30 AM
Swffer29 as to your reply it appears you have a different engine. Mine is a 2.7ltr 5 cylinder. Normal operating temperature is not too hot either. What i did have go two weeks ago was the EGR valve which shut the turbo off. No power on this little 2.7 without it. Lucky it was covered under the engine warranty. $500.00 for the valve alone. And I still have 2 broken glow plugs. Warmer weather is here, yahoo. :idunno:

Simon
04-21-2008, 11:11 PM
I'm just into the Sprinter world, and am returning soon to Alaska with my 2004 140 hi-top.
I don't have much in the way of tools where I am staying right now in the SF Bay area, and decided to take my van into a local dealer- Hartzheim Dodge in Hayward, CA.
Wow.
The van has over 250,000 miles on it, so I'm getting a lot done: oil change, trans. service, etc.
The oil change alone is estimated at $169!
At the later stages of the work, the mechanic found a fault in the circuit for the glow plugs. He has recommended replacing all the plugs and the module, at a cost of $1000!
Please give me some realistic feedback on this. It seems exorbitant!
Also how can I find dealers or mechanics that are competant/trustworthy on the west coast for my Sprinter?
Thanks all-

abittenbinder
04-21-2008, 11:51 PM
returning soon to Alaska with my 2004 140 hi-top.
decided to take my van into a local dealer- Hartzheim Dodge in Hayward, CA.

The van has over 250,000 miles on it, so I'm getting a lot done: oil change, trans. service, etc.
The oil change alone is estimated at $169!
At the later stages of the work, the mechanic found a fault in the circuit for the glow plugs. He has recommended replacing all the plugs and the module, at a cost of $1000!
Please give me some realistic feedback on this. It seems exorbitant!

5 glow plugs cost $125-150, labor (if they all come out without drama) is 1 or 2 hours. Glow plug module is under $150 and labor to install is 1 hour. That adds up to about 1/2 the estimate you were given.

If any glow plugs are seized and then break during removal- the $1000 estimate begins to look low - I would be surprised if a dealer has the specialized tooling to deal with the broken glow plug extraction procedure without removing the cyl head -which escalates the estimate 4 fold. Doktor A

b1mmuo27
04-22-2008, 02:25 AM
Penzoil here in Ontario, Canada charges me $160 for an oil change. I have been going to them for the past 16 years. As far as the tranny is concerned, I just had it done at a rebuild shop I know & it cost me $260.00 for a flush , filter & synthetic oil. The dealership likes to give you the song & dance about no dipstick & how carefull the fluiid level has to be filled. Who do they send the tranny's out to when they're pooched. You obviously have been reading about the dilemma with the glow plugs. My opinion still is a bad design. But I am still finding short comings on this van. Rust specs that the dealership refuses to address & I have seen lots of them like that. Seems to be a body prep/paint problem. My Savanna at the same age/mileage didn't have this problem. EGR valve failure at which time you could not here the grinding from the turbo, since it was not running. 3 weeks later the turbo grinding is back & a call to the dealership is on for tomorrow. In Canada we have the consumer protection line you can call regarding dealership inquiries.

mustangcrazy90
04-30-2008, 12:39 AM
I'm a Sprinter tech here in the states. I've been lucky with most and unlucky with only a hand full. Had an '03 in once with over a hundred thousand on it and every glow plug came out easily. Had an '05 in with only 30,000 miles on it and guess what...#1 plug after taking care not to, broke. Had to remove the head and wait to get it back from the machine shop. They made a tool for us, but it is smarter and easier for them to repair it. We dont have a special tool to remove them if they break in the vehicle. It happens and we warn the customer that hopefully it comes out. When you do a few of them, that is removing the head, it gets easy. 9 hours or so isn't too bad to have the head on and off. I have one todya where all 5 need to come out. Its an '03 with low mileage but so far none of them want to break loose. Luck of the draw pretty much! So looks like a head will be coming off soon! If only they neverseized them from the factory, they wouldn't have to pay for warranty head removals. STUPID process at the manufacturing plant.

Altered Sprinter
04-30-2008, 01:30 AM
I'm a Sprinter tech here in the states. I've been lucky with most and unlucky with only a hand full. Had an '03 in once with over a hundred thousand on it and every glow plug came out easily. Had an '05 in with only 30,000 miles on it and guess what...#1 plug after taking care not to, broke. Had to remove the head and wait to get it back from the machine shop. They made a tool for us, but it is smarter and easier for them to repair it. We dont have a special tool to remove them if they break in the vehicle. It happens and we warn the customer that hopefully it comes out. When you do a few of them, that is removing the head, it gets easy. 9 hours or so isn't too bad to have the head on and off. I have one todya where all 5 need to come out. Its an '03 with low mileage but so far none of them want to break loose. Luck of the draw pretty much! So looks like a head will be coming off soon! If only they neverseized them from the factory, they wouldn't have to pay for warranty head removals. STUPID process at the manufacturing plant.
Head does not need to be removed for plug failure in most cases.
Follow Andy's link :.... Yes there is a cost for the dealership the kit has to be purchased, but it saves on outsourcing to a higher end and therefore a cost reduction in turn around time frames for the end user.
Richard
Well, looks like my ''good luck'' ended.. - Page 2 - Sprinter-Forum (http://www.sprinter-source.com/forum/showthread.php?t=2905&page=2)

Richard

abittenbinder
04-30-2008, 01:59 AM
Head does not need to be removed for plug failure in most cases.
Follow Andy's link :.... Yes there is a cost for the dealership the kit has to be purchased, but it saves on outsourcing to a higher end and therefore a cost reduction in turn around time frames for the end user.
Richard

This is not the hold-down bolt/threads problem. A glow plug removal tool set is available from a German manufacturer but I have said before that it is not useful on a Sprinter engine unless the head has been removed. The "in the car" passenger CDI engines are the tools intended use. Doktor A

Altered Sprinter
04-30-2008, 02:01 AM
This is not the hold-down bolt/threads problem. A glow plug removal tool set is available from a German manufacturer but I have said before that it is not useful on a Sprinter engine unless the head has been removed. The "in the car" passenger CDI engines are the tools intended use. Doktor A
Stand corrected :smilewink:
Richard

abittenbinder
05-03-2008, 05:56 AM
ABITTENBINDER- i was wondering about your recommendation, about removing the glow plugs with the engine warm. I have a ford f150- that has to be over-night cold when removing the spark plugs or you risk taking the threads out with the plug. This process is opposite of your recommendation. Any info would be a great help to me.
W

A Sprinter 612 head was just shipped to me from a shop in California. When removing the glow plugs-4 came out without drama, the 5th exceeded the safe limit breakaway torque of my "calibrated" arm.

I waited until head was further disassembled and then removed that 5th glow plug after sending the head through our 212 degree F parts pressure cooker/cleaner. With the head at around 180 degrees F, that seized glow plug came out effortlessly. Doktor A

mustangcrazy90
05-03-2008, 01:33 PM
Stand corrected :smilewink:
Richard

I was gonna say. Yes the tool works fine with the head out. I've seen posts about it somewhere and all is fine and dandy. It is easier for use to ship the head to the machine shop down the road, like a block away. They do there thing and in hte mean time i'm able to work on other Sprinters, thus not loosing any time getting out the glow plug. Of course the most recent job I did # 4 and 5 and 1 came out. 2 and 3 didnt' want to work with me! Yes putting the head in a cooker works good, if you have the head off already. So such is hte life of a sprinter tech. Anti seize is my friend with the glow plugs! Also this job i'm doing now just happens to be warranty so customer has no cost and doesnt need the vehicle right away.

Jon

Altered Sprinter
05-03-2008, 02:26 PM
Hi Jon
Please accept my apologizes: jumping the Gun so to speak:bash: at the time I was going through Andy's posts on a similar thread from another tech in Canada who was having similar issues and to be honest I thought of Andy's repair of the opposite as to what you referred too.
Andy fascinates me as to his ability to look, keep it simple, and come up with the alternative that works.
I must admit I have seen three of, with the rear last Number 4 plug seized and they have proved to be difficult to remove.Note the engines all of were 4-in-line's..they had clocked over four hundred thousand kilometers... and the cause was NO intermediate service on the engine for B service schedules at the nominated 50 K mark Kilometer not miles.in other words they were secondhand vans changed hands after lease had long expired ,and were run till they stopped.:eek:
Aussie saying down under,,If it aint broke! Don't fix it
Its not compulsory for the B service, however the difference is I guess:thinking: the plug has less of a chance to freeze into the block, if it's going to do it.[Preventative maintenance]
I dread the day, if my van's have the issues! That as to as a repairer, and dealing with a customer base that you have to deal with on a day to day basis:bow:..As from the forum members on on our site with same problems, and other sites too.. as to the early premature failures of the mechanicals, of the sprinters Stateside.
Thanks Richard

b1mmuo27
05-07-2008, 03:16 AM
Mustang Crazy-what was the tool they made you to take out the stuck/broken glow plugs that you mentioned earlier?

kkanuck
05-08-2008, 02:54 AM
Just a passing thought on the Glow plugs, as some owners may take quite some time to get to the use- by- date of the glow plugs, the longer they are in the more likelihood of one or two may freeze into the threaded bore.
it may pay to change them every two years or at the 50 thousand mark.
If one breaks! then the only way to fix them, is remove the head and drill them out with specialized tools, and thats an expensive exercise.
My suggestion would be to use Anti-Seize Lub, prior to installing the plugs, as a preventative cure to a big headache.
Richard.

Doctor is our master:bow: and on previous page My suggestion! but learn from the good Doktors advice
Richard

Can one just remove your original working glow plugs at 50K miles, apply anti seize, re install, and wait for glow plug carnage later?

b1mmuo27
05-08-2008, 03:05 AM
I would say go ahead & try. I had 80K on mine when I tried removing them. That's when ALL the problems started. I started this post & I have seen some good suggestions & I have seen some that don't apply to the 5 cylinder turbo in North America.:hmmm:

kkanuck
05-08-2008, 03:43 AM
I would say go ahead & try. I had 80K on mine when I tried removing them. That's when ALL the problems started. I started this post & I have seen some good suggestions & I have seen some that don't apply to the 5 cylinder turbo in North America.:hmmm:

Sorry to hear my friend....I have yet to have an issue personally, but feel your pain....very interesting thread.


where in Burlington are you, I have a good friend on Quinte St, near Burloak I think, I was there in March. I too am an electrician of 17 years (not practicing currently) originally from Richmondhill, Ont.

Tibor

gggGary
08-11-2008, 03:01 PM
Is #1 cylinder at the front? usually is but with it being Mercedes and all I thought I'd ask. Since shorted is a possible failure mode I am getting P0380 and P0672 would it make sense to take the wire off glow plug 2 before I take a long trip and then try the R&R on return?
gggGary

gggGary
08-13-2008, 03:26 AM
OK I used the Dr A fuse test on glowplugs today #1 blew the fuse instantly all others were fine. This is a 2004 with 64K miles on it one wisconsin winter had previously lived in LA, no evidence of corrosion. I tried removing # 1 and it only turned about 1/2 turn, after turning it back and forth and some rust buster it comes out 1 1/2 turns before that cricking sound, feel of spot welding on the threads stops me from twisting any harder. I have a long road trip in the works 4K or so so I am wondering if I leave it 1 turn out and hit it with some rust buster in the well and trying it now and then to see if it loosens up. I will have the replacement with me. I will leave the #1 wire off of course. Anyone try this? any luck with it? TIA gggGary in Wisconsin but headed to Montana soon.

talkinghorse43
08-13-2008, 04:06 AM
"Cricking" sound may mean that it's broken. Might be hearing the center electrode turning in the outer shell. If so, hopefully the outer shell never moved and the combustion chamber is still sealed.

guisar
08-13-2008, 02:23 PM
I just (yesterday) got the 380 and 671 (not 2) codes. Sounds like the same as everyone else has been having. I plan to bring up to the dealer but am very afraid they'll dork up the glow plug extraction if that's what's required and then stick me with some huge bill even through it's under warranty.

talkinghorse43
08-13-2008, 02:43 PM
Warranty repair should be no problem, but you can explore with them what the situation would be if they do dork it up. My '02 with 146k miles now also has glow plug problems, but Simon's (MIG) experience has convinced me that the Sprinter engine can run forever w/o problem w/o glow plugs, so I plan to forget about repair. When cold weather comes, I'll warm it with the aux heater before attempting to start (usually do anyway). Plus, I always add 2EHN to the fuel (to increase cetane) which will also help.

gggGary
08-14-2008, 12:59 AM
Here's my removing glowplug #1 progress; trip to town, engine up to full temp. after about 8 more thread out thread in episodes with liberal doses of liquid wrench I am up to 3.25 turns out before the the treads seriously bind. To recap; when I started it was 1 turn or less. I have a replacement glow plug but am thinking like talking horse that the risk of breaking off the shorted one may not be worth it. I guess the only real stinker is that the van will always have the check engine light on now. I guess I am just mining aluminum as I go so even if I get the glowplug out I may not have much left in the way of threads in the head. At this point the glow plug seems to be all of a piece with no weird two parts slipping feeling. The glow plug snugs up firmly and smoothly at the bottom of it's travel each time I thread it back in. No one here has mentioned that they needed to helicoil the head after a full remove the head extract the glowplug operation so I am still unsure on what the final results will be IF I get this plug out. In any case this episode has not improved my warm cozy feelings about the Vaunted German - Mercedes engineering.
gggGary

talkinghorse43
08-14-2008, 03:41 AM
The glow plug system is definitely another weak point in the design of the engine (injector hold down is the other). But, since glow plugs aren't really necessary, no big deal.

gggGary
08-14-2008, 12:32 PM
Define necessary, I live in Wisconsin. In my experience diesel's are pretty reluctant to start and run cleanly at 10 or 20 below zero Fahrenheit. But most likely I WILL live without one glowplug rather than pull the head. Beating an old horse but I am comparing this to my Prius which has 109,000 miles and I flog it mercilessly on a rural mail route, 60 miles 500 mail boxes a day, one set of rear brake shoes (at 107,000 miles, fronts are still over 1/2) a taillight bulb and a windshield wiper blade is my total unscheduled maintenance so far.
gggGary

talkinghorse43
08-14-2008, 03:03 PM
If you're worried about having the check engine light on, maybe you could hook up the new glow plug you bought and just let it hang somewhere in the open air?

If you could find another way of preheating the engine, then the glow plug system wouldn't be necessary. I have the aux heater. Another way would be an electric block or in-line coolant heater.

gggGary
08-14-2008, 03:18 PM
OK went out this morning and cold engine the glowplug came out with little effort. Here is a pic of new and old. Notice that the bottom 4 threads on the old plug are filled with aluminum. OUCH. I am going to chase the head thread with a tap and then put in the new glow plug. Wish me luck. I will put wax on the tap to catch crap and will spin the engine before installing the new glow plug to try to blow out any chunks. I already have the anti seize on the new glowplug in the picture. I am wondering if the threads in the head are not in very good synch with the threads on the glow plug ie the glow plug threads extend way past the head threads and then they corrode and drag crap through the head threads on the way out? Sure looks that way to me. Yes I had thought about just plugging in the new one to keep the CEL happy.
gggGary

talkinghorse43
08-14-2008, 03:36 PM
Yes, doesn't look good. Going to need a lot of good luck. Also going to be very, very difficult to chase whatever remains w/o further damage.

Wonder if helicoil or other type thread replacement could be done here? Wonder if Doktor A has done this?

gggGary
08-14-2008, 03:46 PM
The new glow plug is in and I am declaring victory. I did not have the right tap so I just put the new glowplug in. It threaded in with a bit more resistance than it would have if the threads were good but I was able to bottom it and easily feel the "bottomed out" stop, and put decent "arm gauge" setting torque on it. I think this will be fine but sure hope I don't have to do any more glowplugs. I SURE won't before the upcoming road trip! I truly think this is a sleeping dogs situation, no reason to make problems before I have to, on additional glowplugs.
Great forum here!
gggGary

talkinghorse43
08-14-2008, 04:01 PM
Hope you're right, but, being the compulsive worrier I am, I'd be prepared for it to come shooting out (after the engine warms up and the aluminum head expands more than the steel glow plug) at the worst possible time (climbing some mountain pass in Montana in the middle of nowhere).

SteinarN
08-14-2008, 04:09 PM
It is amazing how much damage there can be to threads before they doesn't hold down anymore. It's hard to tell from only one picture, but I think it is a good posibility it will stay in place indefinitely.

Richd67
08-16-2008, 02:42 AM
After reading these posts you guys made me curios. So one day after my 350 mile route was over I decided to take out the glow plugs and put anti-seeze on them and re-install them. It took 15 minutes, the trick was having the motor warm from driving all day, I think. I used a needle nose pliers to pull the plugs off and a 3/8 socket. I installed them with a 1/4 socket so to not over tighten. 140000 miles with original glow plugs.

sikwan
08-16-2008, 02:54 AM
After reading these posts you guys made me curios. So one day after my 350 mile route was over I decided to take out the glow plugs and put anti-seeze on them and re-install them. It took 15 minutes, the trick was having the motor warm from driving all day, I think. I used a needle nose pliers to pull the plugs off and a 3/8 socket. I installed them with a 1/4 socket so to not over tighten. 140000 miles with original glow plugs.

15 minutes, huh? :clapping:

I wonder how many low mileage Sprinters should do this for preventative maintenance? :hmmm:

kkanuck
08-16-2008, 03:19 AM
15 minutes, huh? :clapping:

I wonder how many low mileage Sprinters should do this for preventative maintenance? :hmmm:



The thought has entered my mind a time or two.....

Richd67
08-16-2008, 03:29 AM
15 minutes, huh? :clapping:

I wonder how many low mileage Sprinters should do this for preventative maintenance? :hmmm:

You can't unscrew 5 bolts and replace them in 15 minutes? Remember the motor was hot, not much time for slackers.

sikwan
08-16-2008, 03:49 AM
You can't unscrew 5 bolts and replace them in 15 minutes? Remember the motor was hot, not much time for slackers.

I can unscrew 5 bolts in 30 seconds. :tongue: With a hot engine, that may be a different story. :smirk:

Btw, which year Sprinter T1N do you have?

Richd67
08-16-2008, 04:18 AM
I can unscrew 5 bolts in 30 seconds. :tongue: With a hot engine, that may be a different story. :smirk:

Btw, which year Sprinter T1N do you have?

2004, 158wb. I had a 2007 170wb but I sold it because of the not so good fuel mileage. 17.5 mpg compared to 23 mpg with the 04. Thats alot of money at 300 to 400 miles every day.

abittenbinder
08-16-2008, 06:05 AM
2004, 158wb. I had a 2007 170wb but I sold it because of the not so good fuel mileage. 17.5 mpg compared to 23 mpg with the 04. Thats alot of money at 300 to 400 miles every day.

Glow plug access is MUCH better on the 647 engines ('04-'06) due to the 647 intake manifold design.

Enough access to allow possible extraction repairs and/or thread repairs without removal of the intake manifold- if glow plugs are seized (especially cyls 1-4). Doktor A

sikwan
08-16-2008, 07:18 AM
Glow plug access is MUCH better on the 647 engines ('04-'06) due to the 647 intake manifold design.

That's what I wanted to know. :thumbup:

I did a little peeking in there a while ago and I don't remember the access as being easy. I'll have to take a look again.

gggGary
10-03-2008, 06:24 PM
well thought I 'd report back. After replacing plug #1 I took a 4,000 mile road trip. no problems from the bunged threads. I am still getting an ocasional glow plug DTC. Oh well when I get time ZI'l recheck all the plugs. Only issue on our long trip was that a rodent ate my fuel filter warning wiring at a campground. Wife said afterward that I thought I heard something under the van this morning! Thanks for all the help on this.
gggGary

joska
10-16-2008, 10:48 PM
Hi. I have a 2500 Sprinter with 185000 miles from year 2003. I just had my glow plug light coming on and staying on. After reading your postings I checked the glow plugs from the relay conector on and found them at 1 Ohm. Also the relay clicks on and off after after about 20 seconds. If I have a weak glow plug does that mean that the relay is bad also? Do you have to replace glow plugs and relay also?

talkinghorse43
10-17-2008, 01:26 AM
Hi. I have a 2500 Sprinter with 185000 miles from year 2003. I just had my glow plug light coming on and staying on. After reading your postings I checked the glow plugs from the relay conector on and found them at 1 Ohm. Also the relay clicks on and off after after about 20 seconds. If I have a weak glow plug does that mean that the relay is bad also? Do you have to replace glow plugs and relay also?

If the light stays on continuously, that means there's a relay problem or a glow plug shorted to ground. If the light comes on, then goes out, then comes on again for about a minute; that means one or more of the glow plugs has an open circuit. I have the latter on my '02 and I have decided to let it ride and use my aux heater to warm the engine before starting in cold weather - that's a personal decision, not a recommendation.

joska
10-18-2008, 02:42 PM
The light comes on and goes out , but after starting the engine comes on and stays on all the time. I wonder if there is a reliable way to determine if the glow plugs or the relay is bad. I will not take a chance to shear the plugs if they are still good. For now I will attempt to install an electric block heater.

talkinghorse43
10-18-2008, 03:03 PM
The light comes on and goes out , but after starting the engine comes on and stays on all the time. I wonder if there is a reliable way to determine if the glow plugs or the relay is bad. I will not take a chance to shear the plugs if they are still good. For now I will attempt to install an electric block heater.

Info you want mght be on this forum somewhere, I haven't searched here, but I'd start by searching the yahoo sprintervan forum. Just type "abittenbinder glow plug" (w/o quotes) in the search box, hit enter and read the resulting posts.

CdnVWJunkie
12-04-2008, 10:25 PM
I'd like to bump this thread. I've searched here and found that my questions appears to have not been asked before.

Our 2003 Sprinter has two bad GPs: number 3 and 5 as diagnosed by my local inexperienced Sprinter dealership. Bad GP module too. So last night I attempted to pull number 3 GP out and found that it would not do so. It threaded out like "normal", I'm lucky in this regard given other folks experience in this post(!) but once it was free of the threads I couldn't extract it from the bore. I presume it's all carboned up on the end. It appears that it will be near impossible to remove number 5 because of the intake manifold design so I will be removing it when I re-attempt this job sometime next week when time allows. So I'm wondering when I remove the IM and have more working room around the GPs will extraction be more feasible?. I definitely don't want to break them especially considering they aren't as of right now. Any words of wisdom?

Thanks.

Rob

abittenbinder
12-05-2008, 06:04 AM
I'd like to bump this thread. I've searched here and found that my questions appears to have not been asked before.

Our 2003 Sprinter has two bad GPs: number 3 and 5 as diagnosed by my local inexperienced Sprinter dealership. Bad GP module too. So last night I attempted to pull number 3 GP out and found that it would not do so. It threaded out like "normal", I'm lucky in this regard given other folks experience in this post(!) but once it was free of the threads I couldn't extract it from the bore. I presume it's all carboned up on the end. It appears that it will be near impossible to remove number 5 because of the intake manifold design so I will be removing it when I re-attempt this job sometime next week when time allows. So I'm wondering when I remove the IM and have more working room around the GPs will extraction be more feasible?. I definitely don't want to break them especially considering they aren't as of right now. Any words of wisdom?
Thanks.
Rob

First of all regarding your dealers diagnosis-be aware that a diagnosis of "bad" glow plugs should not be relegated to DTC's alone. Conversely, diagnosis of a glow plug module malfunction is reliably determined from trouble codes. Always test all 5 individual glow plugs for both failure modes-namely, open or shorted. DO NOT install a new module if one or more shorted glow plugs remains "in service".

You need to absolutely determine if your #3 glow plug has already sheared rather than merely believing it is unscrewed, but stuck. Use an inspection lamp and confirm that it has threaded out of its socket. If it is still recessed at the same height as an installed glow plug- then you have sheared the glow plug and it is mimicking the more benign scenario.

You do not need to remove the intake manifold to unscrew and remove #5. Using the proper jointed and length socket- it is just as accessible as #3.

I am working with the German tool manufacturer to determine feasibility and practicality of in vehicle repair of sheared glow plugs in the 612 Sprinter by removing the intake manifold for access. Doktor A

CdnVWJunkie
12-05-2008, 10:01 AM
Doktor A,

THank you for your response.

I won't have access to the Sprinter again until next week. I'm almost certain that #3 GP threaded all the way out but stopped before removal. When I attempt removal next time I will be doing so with the intake manifold off so I'm able to grip the GP more solidly.

Rob

rlent
03-30-2009, 05:41 AM
I've been getting glow plug DTC's for awhile. I checked all glow plugs via the leads from the plug at the glow plug module with via a test lead with inline 20A fuse. The middle cylinder (no. 3) came up as shorted to ground (blew the fuse) - no others did. I then checked the lead from the module to the connector at the glow plug, and the glow plug itself separately. Lead was ok, the glow plug was shorted to ground.

I attempted removal yesterday afternoon, after a 15 mile trip to warm the engine.

Using 1/4" drive breaker bar (which is pretty small - about 6" long) the glow plug broke free after applying fairly significant force. I was able to unscrew the glow plug about 3/4 of a turn - at which point I got the dreaded "creak, creak, creak" of binding. I was able to run it back in (tighten it) relatively easily, and then I ran it back out again to the point of binding. I did this several times and eventually decided to apply some PB Blaster penetrant (filling the glow plug well with it), and let it sit overnight and try it in the morning, cold.

This morning when I tried it and it was the same deal - about 3/4 of turn before it bound up and became hard (although no "creak, creak") - it was pretty stiff initially but loosened up as I worked it - but it would always get really hard at the 3/4 point.

Second try after warming up the engine - pretty much the same thing, only it got stiffer as I worked it - possibly due to the ability of the aluminum to cool and dissipate heat much faster than the steel glow plug (I was doing with the engine off and it had gotten considerably colder here this afternoon)

Third try - I ran the vehicle at a fast idle (1900 rpm) for about 10 or 15 minutes (it was already warm) - after covering the grill/radiator up to reduce airflow - this allowed the engine temp to get up to where the needle for the coolant temp was just completely left of the "8" in 180 - which is somewhat warmer than it was before. I started running it out and the GP got stiffer at the 3/4 turn, but kept turning (with significant force) - so since it was going, and "feeling" relatively good - stiff but smooth and no sticking or binding - I ran it all the way out. The threads on the GP did not look like they picked up alot of AL, so I took that as an encouraging sign ..... 8-)

I want to re-emphasize here that while I did use fairly significant force to get the glow plug to break free initially, and to eventually thread it all the way out, it was a very controlled measured force - based on my sense of how much torque the somewhat fragile glow plug could handle - it was nowhere near the amount of force that I could have applied, had I chosen to do so.

I blew out the hole by inserting a blowgun with a long thin tip down into the hole beyond the threads, and then I turned the engine over a few times prior to attempting to install the new GP. I coated the threads on the new GP with some old Permatex anti-seize compound (the good stuff) that I have. I then used the same 1/4" drive socket and extension, only this time substituting a thumbwheel ratchet in place of the breaker bar, to rotate the glow plug counter-clockwise in an attempt to locate the start of the threads in the bore and then carefully rotated the plug into the threads, screwing it just a couple of threads, at which point it got tighter. At that point I backed it out and used my finger to wipe some anti-seize compound off the upper threads down on to the lower threads which had gotten dry when they were threaded into the bore.

I threaded the glow plug in again and ran it all the way in using only the thumbwheel ratchet - while I wouldn't say that it went in easy, it didn't require all that much force - only that which I could exert with the thumbwheel ratchet. The glow plug was then torqued to the required 115 inch-pounds.

I cleared/erased the DTC's and started the vehicle and rechecked it for codes - it showed none .... so I shut the vehicle off and continued on with the rest of the work I was doing. Later I started up the vehicle and the DTC's (I think they were P0380 and P0674) had returned - possibly because the coolant temp had dropped far enough to require glow plug activation.

Because I had a glow plug that was shorted to ground, and not just open, the glow plug module has been damaged as well (which could be why the DTC's are still showing up) - I did not replace it at this time.

The cost of the module is $86 or so from Berry Dodge, the cost of the glow plugs are around $20 each.

If I go ahead and replace the module now I could have another "shorted to ground" glow plug failure - which would then require replacing the glow plug module again ..... therefore I plan to replace the remainder of the glow plugs ($80) as a preemptive measure - but probably not until the weather warms up or I find myself in warmer climes .... :D:

abittenbinder
03-30-2009, 06:24 AM
Later I started up the vehicle and the DTC's (I think they were P0380 and P0674) had returned

Those DTCs are still present because the ( permanently damaged by shorted glow plug) module has no output to the new glow plug and is therefore still displaying its excess current (the cause of the module failure) DTC. The glow plug DTC is also present because that particular glow plug's circuit is still inactive (due to damaged module).

BTW, 647 ECM's are likely to occasionally activate the powertrain MIL due to these glow plug related codes being present. Activation will depend on ambient temps and the amount of afterglow time being called for. This is apparently an emission related concern affecting 647's only. Doktor A

rlent
03-30-2009, 07:09 AM
Those DTCs are still present because the ( permanently damaged by shorted glow plug) module has no output to the new glow plug and is therefore still displaying its excess current (the cause of the module failure) DTC. The glow plug DTC is also present because that particular glow plug's circuit is still inactive (due to damaged module).
Andy - thanks for the actual (correct) explanation of what is happening. :thumbup:

BTW, 647 ECM's are likely to occasionally activate the powertrain MIL due to these glow plug related codes being present. Activation will depend on ambient temps and the amount of afterglow time being called for. This is apparently an emission related concern affecting 647's only.
Yes - I believe that did occur (MIL on) on several occasions before I replaced the glow plug.

gggGary
03-30-2009, 12:51 PM
Wow some good info in these last few posts. I replaced a glow plug about a year ago and am still getting the MIL and codes. Not all the time, the the MIL clears ocasionally but what you all are saying makes sense. I am sure I have at least one glow plug that does not light. She smokes pretty good on start up and some throttle is neccisary to get it to clean out and run smooth. I guess checking and replacement of all the glow plugs and replacement of the module is in order. I am still divided on reemptive glow plug replacement (let sleeping dogs lay) Great description of the glow plug removal and what worked for you Rlent

abittenbinder
03-30-2009, 04:35 PM
I replaced a glow plug about a year ago and am still getting the MIL and codes. Not all the time, the the MIL clears ocasionally but what you all are saying makes sense. I am sure I have at least one glow plug that does not light.

Do you own a 647 version? Owners of the '02-'03 612 versions can simply disconnect the elec. connection from a seized, shorted glow plug and live with the remaining operational glow plugs.

As I mentioned, owners of 647 versions cannot simply disable a glow plug connection or retain a defective relay (with at least 1 open glow plug circuit) without experiencing occasional power train MIL episodes. BTW, there will be NO limp-home consequences.

You should have diagnostics performed to confirm the true nature of your MIL activation.

Also, let me comment on your statement-" She smokes pretty good on start up and some throttle is necessary to get it to clean out and run smooth." You should not have any significant glow plug involvement in engine performance at ambient temps above freezing. That includes starting and afterglow. Doktor A

rlent
03-30-2009, 05:07 PM
As I mentioned, owners of 647 versions cannot simply disable a glow plug connection or retain a defective relay (with at least 1 open glow plug circuit) without experiencing occasional power train MIL episodes. BTW, there will be NO limp-home consequences.
Thanks - that's reassuring to know ! :clapping:

talkinghorse43
03-30-2009, 05:25 PM
Wow some good info in these last few posts. I replaced a glow plug about a year ago and am still getting the MIL and codes. Not all the time, the the MIL clears ocasionally but what you all are saying makes sense. I am sure I have at least one glow plug that does not light. She smokes pretty good on start up and some throttle is neccisary to get it to clean out and run smooth. I guess checking and replacement of all the glow plugs and replacement of the module is in order. I am still divided on reemptive glow plug replacement (let sleeping dogs lay) Great description of the glow plug removal and what worked for you Rlent

I can see why you're concerned, that's not going to be good for the engine. Still, I can't believe you're even contemplating tempting fate again. I'd exhaust all other possible alternatives before going there again. One would be running with very high levels of cetane boost in the winter. Also, a block heater or aux heater could be used to warm the engine before starting. Probably many other options - there usually are. Concerning the MIL, I'd try to fool the electronics by building a bracket in the open air and threading in new glowplugs for those that are found to be defective. Properly connected and grounded, with a functioning control module, there should be no MIL. Agian, probably many other options here as well.

b1mmuo27
03-30-2009, 08:11 PM
Wow I see this post I started is still going. An update on my situation is as follows. The dealer I purchased the Sprinter from hooked me up with an automotive machinist that removes glow plugs. I made an appointment with him & he can over to the house. He does service calls this way if you have a decent air compressor. As he was setting up I preceded to remove the back 3 glows plugs without much problem. The front 2 were the problem. He started with the No 2 plug. After a little grunt & groaning he had it out. It was broke & he used a series of easy outs & drilling. On to the No 1 plug. After 2 hours of virtually the same work as No. 2 he gave up. Drilled as far as he cared too in the head. Never has been stumped like this. So I know have 4 working glow plugs. Replaced the glow plug controller too. My opinion of how they were originally installed has not changed. As a matter of fact as this vehicle turns four years old my opinion of it has too. It's a bottom line Mercedes. I have not had a service truck before that has rusted so quickly. Cheap paint. I have seen dozens of them as old as mine or newer with rust on them. Shame on Mercedes. The plastic on the interior trim is cheap & cracks easily. The air vent panels on the dash break easily. Replaced both drivers side & passenger side twice. The seatbelt mechanism is cheap. Replaced twice. The door switches are cheap. I have had to replace 4 of them so far. The remote door locks are a hands down winner as the worst I have ever owned. Yes the batteries are good. Yes the contacts on the door switches are clean. All 4 remotes do the same , push, push, push please unlock the door. 3 feet or 10 feet, it's still push, push, push. I could go on....:cry:

surlyoldbill
05-27-2009, 05:08 PM
I'm getting ready to replace my GP's for the first time. I have #1 and #4 bad, and the module of course. I'm just only going to do the bad ones to limit my chances of screwing up. 90k miles on a 2003.

Of note: I've had 2 bad GP's for about a year, but it didn't effect me living in the CA Bay Area. A month ago, we took a trip to Las Vegas, and came back through Death Valley and camped around Mammoth Lakes. It was 108 in Death Valley, and when we woke up it was 25 and snowing near Mammoth Lakes. The van took a LONG TIME to start!:frown: I thought I was going to run out of battery before it started, but after giving it 15-20 second tries with the starter every minute (didn't want to overheat the starter and drain the battery faster) for about 20 minutes, it blew out a lot of smoke and chugged until it finally was running smooth. :bounce:

I also have the problem of hard starting when the engine is hot, and haven't been able to get a clear answer on what is happening. I'll check my CC and CS sensors to see if they are connected and operating right. It seems that when I use Clean Diesel fuel additive it gets batter. Maybe just dirty injectors? Any recommendations or advice on additives?

rlent
05-27-2009, 08:33 PM
I believe I mentioned earlier in this thread that I replaced my one bad glow plug .... but did not want to replace the module (which I had on hand) prior to replacing the remaining glow plugs, due to the possibility of another one shorting to ground and taking out (one of the circuits in) the new module. I am happy to report that yesterday after taking the vehicle in for a front-end alignment (new ball-joints, new Koni front struts) I replaced the remaining four original glow plugs (cylinder no.'s 1, 2, 4, and 5)

Since the vehicle was already warm, when I got home I popped the hood and took a large piece of heavy plastic and tucked it under the hood covering the grill and left the vehicle idle for around 15 to 20 minutes. This raised the engine temperature to where the gauge needle was just to the left of the 8 in the 180 mark.

Using my 1/4" drive breaker bar (tiny) and a 10mm socket I broke all 4 glow plugs free and removed them, in sucession, one right after another. There was a good bit of initial resistance, and each one broke free with a little "pop" and then easily threaded the rest of the way out very smoothly, with very little resistance. Looking at the threads on the old glow plugs they seemed very clean, with no evidence of any aluminum from the cylinder head. I will keep them as spares.

I applied some Permatex Anti-Seize Compound to the threads on the four new Bosch glow plugs and threaded them back into the cylinder using 1/4" drive thumbwheel. I used only my thumb and two fingers (index and middle) to run them in - the glow plugs threaded in nearly effortlessly. Torqued them to 106 inch-pounds .... and then replaced the glow plug module - which was a bit of bear in terms of access, but doable if one is patient.

BTW, at 186K miles I think my ball-joints were due - both were extremely loose, and the passenger side had roughly 1/8" of vertical play in the stud. I have a friend with an '06 who replaced his at roughly 205K - and reported almost 1/4" of vertical play in the studs. If you have similar mileage you may wish to consider checking them or having them checked and/or replacement. He and I both probably should have replaced them at 150K. Outer tie-rod ends were still tight (maybe another 50K to 100K left in them)

rlent
05-28-2009, 04:46 PM
Mine was delivered that way, but was almost uncontrollable (followed every rut in the road) in that condition
Well, I personally haven't experienced that (uncontrollable) .... while any vehicle will have a tendency to tramline (the technical term for the condition you are referring to) I would not consider this tendency, on my vehicle with it's tires inflated to 80 psi all the way around, to be excessive.

Tramlining: Coping with Ruts in the Road (http://www.tirerack.com/tires/tiretech/techpage.jsp?techid=47)

and gave an uneven wear pattern similar to yours.
Really ?

That makes absolutely no sense whatsoever - since higher inflation pressures will cause tires to wear in the center of the tread, while lower inflation pressures will cause more wear on the edges of the tread.

Air Pressure vs. Wet Performance (http://www.tirerack.com/tires/tiretech/techpage.jsp?techid=3)

Was this irregular wear isolated to front tires only - or the rears as well ?

How many miles were driven with the fronts inflated to 80 psi ?

And how much wear was actually measured ? (2/32nds or greater difference between tread grooves on the same tire ?)

Was the excessive wear on both the inboard and outboard edges of the tires ?

All that disappeared when I dropped back to the recommended front tire pressure (55 psig) as recommended by a dealer in the St Louis area I visited for that problem.
The dealer didn't by chance offer a technical explanation of why the irregular wear was happening did they ?

When I say "technical explanation" above what I mean is a description of what exactly occurs to the suspension geometry to place it out of spec to cause irregular wear (as opposed to just a statement like "Well, your tires were over-inflated .....")

I'd be real curious to hear one .... since as I stated before, it doesn't make sense: all else being equal, tires with higher inflation pressures will tend to wear in the center of the tread - not the edges.

BTW, one of the things I have yet to do is compare all measurements (toe, camber, and caster) from before and after the alignment (and from my previous alignment) to the specs published in the service manual for the vehicle.

talkinghorse43
05-28-2009, 07:30 PM
I'd be real curious to hear one .... since as I stated before, it doesn't make sense: all else being equal, tires with higher inflation pressures will tend to wear in the center of the tread - not the edges.

I can't remember all the details you're curious about, but as I remember, the tires were sometimes toe in or toe out (like shimmy, but lower frequency) to the direction of travel due to the fact the contact area was small and that resulted in edge wear due to scrubbing. When the pressure was lowered, the contact area increased and that toe in, toe out condition was reduced. Tires on the rear, where that toe in, toe out condition is impossible will wear more in the center and not on the edges.

surlyoldbill
06-23-2009, 12:27 AM
Update on my glow plug replacement experience:
#4 came out easy, no problems. #1 required "sawing" it out, it broke loose but tightened at only 1/4 turn. I re-tightened it and loosened it a half turn the next time, tightened it again, loosened it, etc. about 1/4 turn gain at a time until it came out. I applied penetrating lubricant during the process. It took a while, but it came out without damaging the threads. I installed the new ones with anti-sieze. I also replaced the module, but I didn't want to screw around in tight places so I took the 5 minutes to remove the battery and battery tray, and replacement was easy. I suspect that #4 was one of the ones that the dealer replaced under warranty a couple years ago, and that's why it came out so easy.

bilabong
08-26-2009, 06:04 PM
Hi,

First post, thanks for all the great advice that came before me. Got an 2002 308 Sprinter on 140k miles that showed the plug warning light today. Goes off after start then stays on constantly.

From what i have read one is short circuit and will have taken out the control module.

So i guess with selling it in mind (as part of a business) i could take out the warning light, or fit a dummy earthed glow plug inside the engine bay. Worried that i totally screw up the van if i try to fix the plug and module, as its not really necessary in my Scottish temperate climate.

What are your thoughts on this, Merc religiously try to pillage us on costs (1400 last mot and i did it all for 195 with my labor), and would not be surprised if they "broke" the plug intentionally.

Bilabong

b1mmuo27
09-11-2009, 05:23 AM
Follow up to my glow plug problem. As I mentioned an auto machinist tried & succeeded in removing the seized #2 glow pug in my 2005 dodge sprinter. At that time he drill down to the bottom of the threaded well on the #1 glow plug & could not get the electrode out. He placed a broken off glow plug back in the tapped opening to stop the electrode from "popping out" if it ever did. Well a year it did. Blew right through this broken plug & out hitting & leaving the mark on the underside of the hood. This was followed by a sudden drop in power & the roaring sound of compression from the # 1 cylinder. All this on a back road hwy on a holiday monday. What to do. Well I Mcgivered it. I placed a #8 bolt, washer & nut through the core that was left screwed in the well. I screwed that back in & was on my way. The van ran great for the next 400kms. Then"snap, snap snap" like a broken valve. $130 for towing & the only decision made was that the noise was not mechanical ie a broken valve slapping. Checking the #1 cylinder compression now was very low through the glow plug hole. It was decided I could drive the van home. I did 500Kms tonight. At speeds over 70kph the van ran fine lacking a little power but blowing & smelling what appears to be unburned diesel from the # 1 cylinder. I don't believe it's the piston in #1 but the exhaust valve. Only way to tell I guess will be to remove the head. That will be tomorrow. Lesson learned on leaving a broken glow plug in the head. In hindsight I would NOT do it again.:bash:

jdcaples
09-11-2009, 06:56 PM
Burlington, Ontario is about 300 kilometers from Andy Bittenbinder.... just something to keep in mind.

-Jon

glasseye
09-11-2009, 09:39 PM
Burlington, Ontario is about 300 kilometers from Andy Bittenbinder.... just something to keep in mind.
-Jon

Indeed. I just drove nearly 3000 kilometers to get to Andy's. Worth every metre.

b1mmuo27
09-12-2009, 03:00 AM
Thanks but I got the head off it today & the #1 piston head has been mushroomed. Will the pan come off in the van? or do I have to remove the block from the van to do anything with it.

b1mmuo27
09-12-2009, 03:59 PM
Well now I am looking for a good used engine or a rebuilt one. Would Andy have anything?

kkanuck
09-18-2009, 01:36 AM
That's what I wanted to know. :thumbup:

I did a little peeking in there a while ago and I don't remember the access as being easy. I'll have to take a look again.

Hi Seek,

Would you ever consider changing your glow plugs even with no faults, just to put the anti seize compound on, so it does not have issues down the line, as a preventative maintenance thing?

Just curious what your answer would be?


Cheers.


Tibor

surlyoldbill
09-18-2009, 04:02 PM
Probably a good idea to apply anti-seize on good GP's. As I posted earlier, I was able to remove #4 as easily as a new motor, but #1 required some finesse; both at 100k miles. I now have to replace #3.

blacksmoke
09-27-2009, 06:32 AM
scary... but just changed a set of 5 plugs off ebay, new. hot engine, made a squeekey sound as i twisted them out, came out clean though. put anti-sieze on them before installing. 04 with 125k. can't tell if they've ever been changed, blue tint on original plugs, a little rust on one of them, soot on the tips.

baldeagle
10-03-2009, 09:57 AM
I do like the youtube video earlier in this post. Apparently the "Thread Doctor" in the Chippenham area (UK) sorted a snapped off glowplug in my van just before I bought it for a reasonable price. I guess he had kit similar to the video :thumbup:

bnlsrv
01-29-2010, 01:54 PM
I can see why you're concerned, that's not going to be good for the engine. Still, I can't believe you're even contemplating tempting fate again. I'd exhaust all other possible alternatives before going there again. One would be running with very high levels of cetane boost in the winter. Also, a block heater or aux heater could be used to warm the engine before starting. Probably many other options - there usually are. Concerning the MIL, I'd try to fool the electronics by building a bracket in the open air and threading in new glowplugs for those that are found to be defective. Properly connected and grounded, with a functioning control module, there should be no MIL. Agian, probably many other options here as well.

Talkinghorse - What block heater or aux heater? Where to purchase?

talkinghorse43
01-29-2010, 07:28 PM
Talkinghorse - What block heater or aux heater? Where to purchase?

See other post for aux heater. Block heaters are at least available at the dealer - maybe even europarts-sd.com?

kkanuck
02-18-2010, 04:23 AM
Geez! :eek:

I hope it's not the case, but it looks like you're going to have to remove the head.

Guess I'll be looking at mine at 50k.


Hi Seek,

Have you ever performed any preventative in this Dept?

BTW, what's with the picture of your Sprinter with the missing front pieces, did you have an Espar repair to perform?


Cheers,


Tibor

sikwan
02-18-2010, 04:36 AM
Have you ever performed any preventative in this Dept?

BTW, what's with the picture of your Sprinter with the missing front pieces, did you have an Espar repair to perform?


No Tibor, I'm just doing the "if it ain't broke, don't fix work on it" mentality. My T1N is at the mid-30k's so I'm not too worried, although I do the visual inspection when I'm doing the oil changes, etc.

No repair on the Espar. Just some data collecting...

http://sprinter-source.com/forum/showthread.php?t=9069

...in case I need to repair it some day. Hopefully never. :smirk:

kkanuck
02-18-2010, 03:19 PM
No Tibor, I'm just doing the "if it ain't broke, don't fix work on it" mentality. My T1N is at the mid-30k's so I'm not too worried, although I do the visual inspection when I'm doing the oil changes, etc.

No repair on the Espar. Just some data collecting...

http://sprinter-source.com/forum/showthread.php?t=9069

...in case I need to repair it some day. Hopefully never. :smirk:



Sounds good sir....

Thanks,


Tibor

kkanuck
08-10-2010, 04:01 PM
The danger to the health of the module comes not from failed-open glow plugs but defective glow plugs that fail- shorted to ground. These can trigger a DTC-labeled as excess current draw of module. It can be diagnosed by disconnecting the relay(module) wiring connector. Pin #1-5 are the #1-5 cyl. glow plugs. A short length of 12 gage wire modified with a in-line 20 amp fuse, can then connect direct from battery to each pin -in turn. If fuse survives for minimun of 10 seconds- that particular glow plug being tested is not shorted to ground. Check all the glow plugs with this method and find the plug/plugs which are shorted-then you can safely replace a damaged module without endangering the new one. Doktor A

Hi Dr. A


I found the glow plug relay module wiring, it is a 6 connector with only 5 being used, 3 on top, 2 on the bottom, but no numbers next to the terminal of 1-5. If I find a bad glow plug, do I just follow the wiring color at the glow plug itself and match the same color wire / w stripe on some, at the relay?


Cheers for clarification

abittenbinder
08-10-2010, 08:15 PM
Hi Dr. A


I found the glow plug relay module wiring, it is a 6 connector with only 5 being used, 3 on top, 2 on the bottom, but no numbers next to the terminal of 1-5. If I find a bad glow plug, do I just follow the wiring color at the glow plug itself and match the same color wire / w stripe on some, at the relay?


Look on the other side of the plastic plug for the cyl location numbers. Doktor A

kkanuck
08-10-2010, 10:16 PM
Look on the other side of the plastic plug for the cyl location numbers. Doktor A

Thank you Dr. A,

I tried your test with the 20A inline fuse with a 12 gauge wire. I disconnected the glow plug 5 wire plug, and also the small plug to the right of it on the glow plug relay as well.

With the engine off, and the positive to the battery disconnected, I connected this wire, with the engine key in the off position, from one of the 5 wires, to the positive of the battery, and looked for a spark, but did not find any on 2 different wires I tries out of the 5. Would I not see a spark as I touch the 20 amp fused wire to the + battery post? I touched, puled away a few times and no spark, I figured the load of the glow plug would surely result in a spark....Did I do something wrong?

I checked with Dodge today, and they told me glow plugs are not covered under either the power train, nor the engine warranty, yet 2007 and newer it is covered...weird??? I am not sure mine are bad, I was just wanting to test them to make sure and put this possibility to rest. I just changed the alternator and was wondering if this could have caused it like it has for some others. I ran a scangauge, and NO Codes.


Cheers for any insight.

Rockbreaker
10-05-2010, 07:47 PM
The glow plug itself is around $16.88 each + tax/shipping.

Price is here...

http://www.europarts-sd.com/get-pdf.php?f=sprinter.pdf

Seek


07 and newer are around $38 per ";(

suprtec
12-02-2010, 11:36 AM
I'm driving a 07 3500 company Sprinter. I have a 125000 miles on it. The glow coil light started staying on after start up and I asked the dealer to look at it when it was in for service. They came back and said the glow coils are breaking off and the only way to fix them is to replace the heads. $11000.00
Is that correct. It seems insane for what should be a simple repair.
Naturally the company wants to sell the truck at auction and Ill get stuck into a Ford van.
Gary

talkinghorse43
12-02-2010, 02:42 PM
I'm driving a 07 3500 company Sprinter. I have a 125000 miles on it. The glow coil light started staying on after start up and I asked the dealer to look at it when it was in for service. They came back and said the glow coils are breaking off and the only way to fix them is to replace the heads. $11000.00
Is that correct. It seems insane for what should be a simple repair.
Naturally the company wants to sell the truck at auction and Ill get stuck into a Ford van.
Gary

Probably the only way the dealer would attempt repair, but probably not the only option. Europarts rents a tool set to repair the T1N I5 broken glow plugs, but don't know about the NCV3 V6. Probably you should post this in the NCV3 section.

surlyoldbill
12-02-2010, 03:52 PM
Probably the only way the dealer would attempt repair, but probably not the only option. Europarts rents a tool set to repair the T1N I5 broken glow plugs, but don't know about the NCV3 V6. Probably you should post this in the NCV3 section.

Dealer must not be very skilled if they are breaking off glow plugs, especially after forcing the first one and then trying the same thing again! There are several threads here about techniques to remove GPs safely, and there IS a cleaning/tapping tool available to repair when mistakes happen. in my experience, a dealer shop would tell you that the entire fuel tank needs replacing if one of the band clamps was broken. they do not "repair" anything, they only replace parts. The "replace the head" story is typical of dealer's approach to repairing the damage they caused by trying to force out a GP. If they break off the GP, they should be liable for any and all repairs required to return your van to the condition it ws brought in.

new-york2004
12-02-2010, 05:02 PM
I'm driving a 07 3500 company Sprinter. I have a 125000 miles on it. The glow coil light started staying on after start up and I asked the dealer to look at it when it was in for service. They came back and said the glow coils are breaking off and the only way to fix them is to replace the heads. $11000.00
Is that correct. It seems insane for what should be a simple repair.
Naturally the company wants to sell the truck at auction and Ill get stuck into a Ford van.
Gary

from my experience - check with Mercedes dealer, they must have special tool to remove damaged (broken) glow plugs, they charged me around $150 to replace all 5, plus they told me that they will charge me extra $25 (if anyone will brakes),and finally i got the bill for $150 without any extras. don't be shy - check with Mercedes dealer sometimes they have even better deals than dodge,plus they have experience and special tools. good luck

Aqua Puttana
12-19-2010, 08:20 AM
I have already posted this information in two other threads, but anyone who has completely read through this thread is probably ready for some good news about glow plug changes. I had a good outcome that I think should be here for future searches. vic

My Experience Changing Glow Plugs
(4 out of 5 so far) (5 out of 5 ain't bad!)

I guess this qualifies as a Cheap Trick. It's certainly cheaper than a dealer doing it.

I was very nervous about my impending glow plug change. Maybe my experience will help someone else in the same situation.
...

More details about my experience and about the T1N Sprinter glow plugs can be found here if you're interested.

http://sprinter-source.com/forum/showpost.php?p=117376&postcount=37

http://sprinter-source.com/forum/showpost.php?p=117455&postcount=39

http://sprinter-source.com/forum/showpost.php?p=117395&postcount=141

http://sprinter-source.com/forum/showpost.php?p=117523&postcount=142

suprtec
12-19-2010, 07:55 PM
Update on my original post.
I took the truck to Mercedes dealer. They changed the left side without any issues and said they just got a special tool and would I mind leaving it and let them experiment on the right side. It turns out they were able to get all the plugs changed.
Now the problem is the truck still won't start with out a heater under the hood. It was easier to start before the plugs were changed. I think the module or control is bad. The glow coil light still stays on.

Aqua Puttana
12-19-2010, 08:29 PM
...
I think the module or control is bad. The glow coil light still stays on.

I don't know if the 2007 OM642 glow plug system module has internal fuses like the earlier year T1N models have. I do remember reading where the OM642 GP is a lower voltage design (5 volts?) and the glow plug module supplies a pulse width modulated DC voltage to the glow plugs. The glow plugs cannot be tested using direct 12 volts off the battery.

I should think the dealership would have tested the module and glow plug operation before it left the shop. Were I you I'd take it back to them sooner rather than later. Good luck. vic

kkanuck
12-19-2010, 10:04 PM
Update on my original post.
I took the truck to Mercedes dealer. They changed the left side without any issues and said they just got a special tool and would I mind leaving it and let them experiment on the right side. It turns out they were able to get all the plugs changed.
Now the problem is the truck still won't start with out a heater under the hood. It was easier to start before the plugs were changed. I think the module or control is bad. The glow coil light still stays on.

This is on the dealership as far as an incomplete repair and I would not allow them to charge you anymore to rectify the issue.

suprtec
12-22-2010, 02:25 PM
Update on my original post.
I took the truck to Mercedes dealer. They changed the left side without any issues and said they just got a special tool and would I mind leaving it and let them experiment on the right side. It turns out they were able to get all the plugs changed.
Now the problem is the truck still won't start with out a heater under the hood. It was easier to start before the plugs were changed. I think the module or control is bad. The glow coil light still stays on.
Update
Took it back and they changed out the relay. Everything seems to work and the check engine light and the glow plug lights are off. Most important the truck starts in cold weather.
Thanks to all for the advise.

shuksan
01-16-2011, 07:49 PM
Just found out from my new DAD that the MIL thats been coming on is P2134, which is supposed
to indicate short to 12v or open.

I'm planning to check for the obvious wiring issue. If that's not it, I'll probably wait until some
nice summer weather before trying a replacement. I suppose I should also swap wires and see if
the module could be bad? Any advice on doing just the one, or all of em? I've got about 95K on a 2005 passenger van.

/Hugh

Aqua Puttana
01-16-2011, 08:08 PM
I think you'll find this thread worth the time it takes to read through. It may answer many of your questions. Good luck. vic

http://sprinter-source.com/forum/showthread.php?t=6935

alfredo
03-10-2011, 02:27 PM
:thinking:i would like to know the amount of torque feet/pounds or inch/pounds or nm so i can set the glow plug and cause no damage if i have to change it again

autostaretx
03-10-2011, 03:19 PM
torque?
According to the 2004 Service Manual (647 engine):
(1) Screw glow plug(s) into cylinder head and tighten to 12 Nm (115 lbs. in)
(2) Connect the glow plug wiring harness connector(s)
(3) Install the engine cover.
(4) Connect negative battery cable
--dick
p.s. 115 lbs in is 9.58 ft lbs

scottw
04-07-2011, 04:13 PM
Has anyone had any better experience with brands other than Bosch? Is 80,000 Miles acceptable life. We seem to get this as about average mileage on them here.

Thanks.

Jts
06-21-2011, 06:53 AM
2005- 118- 110K miles glow plug replacement. Scan guage indicated 2 bad plugs so I replaced them all. Three of the plugs looked nearly new, two of the plugs had corrosion in the middle shaft and just below the connector. One of the plugs had two threads in the upper middle shear. There were four fully intact threads on the lower part of the glow plug.

I have two questions, 1) is the corrosion due to the failed glow plug not heating up and allowing water vapor to condense in this area? Or is there some other more sinister condition at play?

2) I replaced the glow plugs, applied anti-sieze and cleared the codes. The engine started crisply and ran beautifully to full temp. Whats the likelihood that the glow plug with the missing threads will get ejected during my trip to alaska this summer. I believe that for static fasteners only two threads are required for nearly full strength. I'm concerned that four threads will not be sufficient for high pressure and thermal cycling.

Any guidance, or reassurance would be appreciated.

JTS

gggGary
06-21-2011, 12:21 PM
I replaced #1 which fought me all the way out and left a lot of rather ugly threads behind. that was three years and 30,000 miles ago.

nahele
10-19-2011, 11:20 PM
Can you replace the glow plug module withouth the having to reprogram it.

my sprinter
10-19-2011, 11:54 PM
hy it looks like you have the same problem as i do,can you tell me which one is glow plug cylinder 1,i changed both module and all plugs but it looks like number 1 gices me trouble i know its on passenger side but from the front or from the back,is it the one next to the cabin filter?thanks a lotttt

Aqua Puttana
10-20-2011, 12:15 AM
I replaced #1 which fought me all the way out and left a lot of rather ugly threads behind. that was three years and 30,000 miles ago.

gggGary,
I missed your comment when originally posted. That is good news. Mine came out fine, but had they picked up some of the aluminum thread on the way out I would have tried just re-installing and pray. Your experience gives confidence that it will actually work.
:thumbup:
Can you replace the glow plug module withouth the having to reprogram it.
There is no programming needed to install a new Glow Plug module. Personally I would recommend purchasing the modified (external fuses added) module which Surlyoldbill offers rather than purchasing a new module. That SOB has a good idea with the external fuse modification. (I just love using the "SOB" abbreviation. :tongue:) vic

stacey13
10-21-2011, 03:33 AM
how do we find/get in contact with surlyoldbill to purchase his modified module ?

Aqua Puttana
10-21-2011, 02:06 PM
how do we find/get in contact with surlyoldbill to purchase his modified module ?
All you need should be here. The search box in the blue bar above can be your friend.


http://sprinter-source.com/forum/showthread.php?t=16619&highlight=glow+plug+module+fuse

vic

nahele
10-27-2011, 08:57 PM
The DTCs set by the glow plug module(also referred to as glow plug relay) are unreliable. An indication for a particular cylinders glow plug failure may involve a completely different cylinders glow plug OR non at all-it typically indicates a defective module. DC has FINALLY acknowledged this DTC problem in the latest release notes for the DRBIII sprinter memory card update. The module(relay) part# was 5103568AA and has superseded to 5170859AA-about $110.00 from Dodge. BTW, a defective glow plug can damage a new replacement module-so don't replace a specific single glow plug based on DTC info-then find the problem is still present -then replace the module only to have the undiagnosed defective glow plug destroy your new module. Doktor A

the part number has been changed again to 68079372AA

anndavid1
11-06-2011, 02:18 AM
Does anyone know rather it's worth changing your glow plugs yourself or should it be best done by a tech? Also how do you tell which one is bad?

Aqua Puttana
11-06-2011, 03:07 PM
Does anyone know rather it's worth changing your glow plugs yourself or should it be best done by a tech? Also how do you tell which one is bad?
First let me extend you a hale and hearty welcome to the forum. 38406

It's not really a bad job. The biggest concern is that you don't break off a stuck glow plug by using heavy handed methods.

Here's some threads which may help you to make a decision.

http://sprinter-source.com/forum/showpost.php?p=117395&postcount=141

http://sprinter-source.com/forum/showpost.php?p=117523&postcount=142

http://sprinter-source.com/forum/showpost.php?p=90249&postcount=111

http://sprinter-source.com/forum/showthread.php?p=90249#post90249


Good luck. vic

my sprinter
11-06-2011, 03:25 PM
hy thx a lot im still getting used to how to!! in this forum i replaced all glow plugs but the problem was that the serial number of the glow plug module 2700 a t the end doesnt always works on 07 and you have to spend like 800 for the one that has serial number 2800 at the end.
also i had both battery and glow plug+chk engine lights on after many hours of work and troubleshooting there was a small water leakage on the pins of the computer ecu unit on the right side of the engine looking from the front that was it all probems solved i did learned a lot andd all my technical experience and 6 years of automotive had helped me a lot>
thank you!

my sprinter
11-06-2011, 03:30 PM
Can you replace the glow plug module withouth the having to reprogram it.

yes you just have to have the right one and its going to work.

whitedog
11-10-2011, 04:54 AM
I too have glow plug replacement questions.

1) I am looking for thoughts on if it would be a good idea to put a tablespoon or so of penetrating oil in each GP well and run it for a weeks worth of heating/cooling cycles before pulling the GPs.

B) If the threads shear off and the electrode pulls out, what is left in there that needs to be removed so the body can be threaded and pulled out? Yes, the threads need to be removed, but I'm concerned about what is below that, first. Is it pretty soft so that a dog can easily keep the drill straight if working at a less than ideal angle? I am imagining using an angle drill back there on #5 (if needed) and getting the drill at the wrong angle, but if the center material is soft, I think the drill would find the right angle on it's own.

III) A thought: Since this wants to be done with a warm engine, my thought is that it would be a good idea to start with the hardest ones first, so it seems to be a good idea to start at the rear and work forward.

Also, is it worth it to remove the fuel lines to ensure a nice, straight shot if things get sketchy? I read about wrapping things with foil here and after almost 20 years working on heavy equipment, I wish I had thought of this or been shown this idea earlier. Thanks for all of the things I have learned here in a short time.

Aqua Puttana
11-10-2011, 01:20 PM
I too have glow plug replacement questions.

1) I am looking for thoughts on if it would be a good idea to put a tablespoon or so of penetrating oil in each GP well and run it for a weeks worth of heating/cooling cycles before pulling the GPs.
It certainly can't hurt anything. Just keep in mind that any liquid left in the wells may trickle down into the cylinder when the GP is removed. You might want to blow out the cylinder through the GP hole before re-installing the GP.

B) If the threads shear off and the electrode pulls out, what is left in there that needs to be removed so the body can be threaded and pulled out? Yes, the threads need to be removed, but I'm concerned about what is below that, first. Is it pretty soft so that a dog can easily keep the drill straight if working at a less than ideal angle? I am imagining using an angle drill back there on #5 (if needed) and getting the drill at the wrong angle, but if the center material is soft, I think the drill would find the right angle on it's own.
I haven't done any type of drilling out. Keeping the drill straight enough is a challenge for certain. I'd be nervous to do it without a guide of some sort. :idunno:

I presume everything below the threaded portion would be left below the break.

Here's what the GP looks like if you haven't found this sketch.

38600

I worried quite a bit before doing my glow plug removal. A couple were stubborn, but they all came out. You may not have any problem at all.

III) A thought: Since this wants to be done with a warm engine, my thought is that it would be a good idea to start with the hardest ones first, so it seems to be a good idea to start at the rear and work forward.
Makes sense to me. I didn't think it through and started at the front. As a practical matter the engine should not cool off that quickly though. There's quite a bit of mass.

Also, is it worth it to remove the fuel lines to ensure a nice, straight shot if things get sketchy?
I didn't find the fuel lines a problem with my OM647 engine for normal removal. (The OM612 engine does have more difficult/different access.) Maybe worthwhile if drilling out?

I read about wrapping things with foil here and after almost 20 years working on heavy equipment, I wish I had thought of this or been shown this idea earlier.
I came up with that idea all by my lonesome quite some time ago, but I'm certain others use the same idea. Tin foil also works to fashion a temporary diverter when changing oil filters on the Dodge Ram Vans to (help) keep the oil off the frame section... and come to think of it on the Sprinter torque converter draining also. It works for masking small spray paint jobs too. Just conform it to what you want covered. Often no tape is needed. You'll likely find other uses if you just keep a roll in your tool box.

Thanks for all of the things I have learned here in a short time.
The learning curve needs to be quite steep for a Sprinter. :cheers: Good luck. vic

whitedog
11-10-2011, 02:50 PM
Thanks, Vic. I appreciate the help with the good info.

From that GP drawing, It looks like There would be lots of material to drill and tap for a puller, so that's good. But keeping the drill lined up is the tricky part. It would be great to have a guide like in the tool kit shown in the video for GP removal.

We will get the Van back this morning so I'll be able to take another look at it once we get the essential stuff done. This way I'll have a better understanding of what I'll be into when I spend the 15 min utes changing the GPs after stressing about it for hours! LOL!:smirk:

jdcaples
11-10-2011, 04:02 PM
I have a question:

It seems like all the guidance written says, "remove glow plugs from engine when it's at operating temperature" or something like that.

Suppose it takes you so long to get most of GPs out that your cylinder head is at ambient temp when you're on the last one or two.

Can you heat the cylinder head around the glow plug with a plumbing torch or is that just impractical and likely to do more harm than good?

-Jon

surlyoldbill
11-10-2011, 05:10 PM
Thanks, Vic. I appreciate the help with the good info.

From that GP drawing, It looks like There would be lots of material to drill and tap for a puller, so that's good. But keeping the drill lined up is the tricky part. It would be great to have a guide like in the tool kit shown in the video for GP removal.

We will get the Van back this morning so I'll be able to take another look at it once we get the essential stuff done. This way I'll have a better understanding of what I'll be into when I spend the 15 min utes changing the GPs after stressing about it for hours! LOL!:smirk:

Following all the tips on the forum you shouldn't have too much of a problem. I use a 1/4" ratchet so I'm not tempted to put too much torque on them. Sometimes you have to go back and forth (loosen/tighten) a lot to get the PB Blaster or other penetrating oil into the threads.

Aqua Puttana
11-10-2011, 07:33 PM
I have a question:

...

Can you heat the cylinder head around the glow plug with a plumbing torch or is that just impractical and likely to do more harm than good?

-Jon
I don't think that is practical in that you are not likely to be able to get it to heat up the aluminum head where I think it is critical. The good news is that if too much time goes by you can just put things together enough to take a drive and warm things up. An ESPAR heater may help too.

I think I gave my thoughts on why hot engine GP removal is best given the distance between the thread portion and the seal, and then the different expansion of the metals? vic

I still stand by my methods outlined in Cheap Tricks here.

http://sprinter-source.com/forum/showthread.php?p=117395#post117395

whitedog
11-11-2011, 01:50 AM
"The good news is that if too much time goes by you can just put things together enough to take a drive and warm things up"

That's what I was thinking. Of course the first time I did GPs on a TDI, I had a back tap and a helicoil set ready to go just in case, then they all came out easy. I do like to be ready for the worst, especially now that I will be working on a company rig that needs to be running.

pyramidhvacr
11-11-2011, 02:58 AM
Just change mine too 130.000 or so but the pliers did not simply removal all and reattchment of the electrical connector easy a fue of this stuck so i got a long thin metal turn a U shape hook with a 90 deg turn to fit under the electrical connector to remove and not break the connector. 30-45 min very easy. Push them back on you hear a click locking it back in on the glow plug.

Altered Sprinter
11-11-2011, 03:13 AM
Glow plug removal, including loom removal and cleaning of the threads with cylindrical thread cleaners, requires precise tools to efficiently work best.
Anything less is asking for the unknown issues, and a continuance of repetitive threads as to Why http://sprinter-source.com/forum/images/icons/icon5.gif:idunno:


38630

38631

38632

38633

38634
Richard

finegrind
11-14-2011, 09:54 PM
Ok, got error code that said 2nd glow plug failure ,so I read every post i could find about glow plug replacement and how care full to be while doing it.
I broke the glow plug !
I got it out 1 1/2 turns very slowly and then snap.
apparently its broke at the threads but it is still attached internaly by the element i suppose.
I started the motor and it runs fine in this condition.
How dangerous is it to run it like this ?
If i get no leakage out of the broken glow plug and leave it disconnected, can't i run on 4 glow plugs ?

abittenbinder
11-14-2011, 10:44 PM
2nd glow plug failure
I broke the glow plug !
I got it out 1 1/2 turns very slowly and then snap.

How dangerous is it to run it like this ?
If i get no leakage out of the broken glow plug and leave it disconnected, can't i run on 4 glow plugs ?

One possible problem is that you have unseated the plug from the tapered seat in the head.

This will allow combustion products (soot and water vapor) to enter the chamber between the seat and the threads.

This soot and water vapor will not escape past the threads but may complicate the eventual re-installation of the new glow plug.

If your Sprinter is a 647, you will be observing the engine Malfunction Indicator Light come and go in addition to the glow plug light.

Doktor A

waffles89
11-15-2011, 12:49 AM
So, I have searched high and low in this forum for this this information; forgive me if it has already been explained someplace else.

I have a 2005 sprinter with 140,000 miles that I recently purchased. I am currently getting P0380 and P0671 which both pertain to the glow plugs. Everyone seems to agree that it is fine to run on 4 glow plugs, but I don't understand how you are getting around the emissions aspect of it. I cannot pass emissions with this code.

On a unrelated note (hopefully) I am also getting a code U0423. It says "invalid data received from instrument." Any tips on that one?

Any and all insight would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks-

Motodisiac
11-16-2011, 08:21 AM
When I bought my Sprinter one one the error codes called for new glow plugs. I immediately bought Bosch glow plugs but after reading all nightmare stories here I was hesitant to replace them.

Well, I finally got sick and tired from constant check engine light and pulled the trigger yesterday. A day before I sprayed the plugs with some penetrating fluid. After driving for about 40 miles I immediately pulled the wires off (a lot easier than I expected) and all 5 plugs came out without the slightest hesitation. To say that I was relieved would be understatement. Complete project took about 15 minutes. It feels great :bounce:

Aqua Puttana
11-16-2011, 01:22 PM
...
I broke the glow plug !
I got it out 1 1/2 turns very slowly and then snap.
...


Sorry to bother you at a bad time, but it may provide helpful information for others removing their glow plugs. There have been reports that indicate there was very little resistance and GP's still broke.

You say "1 1/2 turns very slowly". Was it hard to turn? I tried to highlight needing to move the GP in and out in very, very small increments with the one which I removed that had big resistance. Whether you are turning it out slow or fast, if it binds and there is too much stress it can break. When I first started the in and out movements to my tight plug it was barely moving and took many in and outs to finally turn freely.

Have you called and spoken to Doktor A? I'm curious as to whether there are any tests which can be done to see if you did actually unseat the glow plug seal. I wonder if the cranking speed test is reliable enough?

"Call my Sprinter Hot Line 412-366-6165. Doktor A".
"have a pad of paper handy when you call him"

Good luck. vic

correllbil
11-16-2011, 01:27 PM
Hi Andy,
I know this is an old post but I have a question abouy heating the head for glow plug removal. I have the head off the engine. I haven't tried to remove the glow plugs yet but the Injectors came out quite easily. Is it possible to heat the head in a pot of water to about 180 degrees then try the plug removal?

Correllbil
York, SC

abittenbinder
11-16-2011, 02:17 PM
Hi Andy,
I know this is an old post but I have a question abouy heating the head for glow plug removal. I have the head off the engine. I haven't tried to remove the glow plugs yet but the Injectors came out quite easily. Is it possible to heat the head in a pot of water to about 180 degrees then try the plug removal?

Correllbil
York, SC

My ULTIMATE glow plug removal method, which has always allowed easy removal of plugs, is to put the entire head into a commercial parts cleaner/cooker. and remove plugs while head is still HOT.

Find a local automotive machine shop and they will likely have one of these. This machine heats water and detergent and cleans the head on a rotisserie. Works every time and works better than head heated on running engine.

Doktor A

correllbil
11-19-2011, 06:20 PM
I am going to replace all glow plugs so I decided to do a cold removal of the glow plugs sense I already have the head off. First glow plug came out very easily. It is a Bosch and looks really new. Next went to #5. Broke loose easily turned about one turn then snap! Now I proceed to see why this happens which is why I did it this way (cold). The glow plug came apart at the place where they are swaged into the main body. When I got the plug to turn easily I pulled the plug out by the tip. I see what is my photo 1. I then use my pliers to pull out the body and see my photo 2. I then turn the head on its side and press out the tip and see my photo 3. It seems that what is binding is actually the tip portion of the glow plugs. Andy, should we be sure to have anti seize here too. Will the combustion products not mix with the anti-seize and maybe cause more of a problem? The clamp marks on the tip is where I was putting it back into the body and decided to take it back out.

Billy C
York, SC:thinking:

The other 4 glow plugs have the Mercedes Benz stamps so I guess they are originals. I guess someone has replaced the first glow plug recently as it looks like new.

Evzen
11-22-2011, 09:04 PM
I should not have read the forum...kidding, it is very helpful. On the other hand it make s me nervous to replace mine. 150K 2003.
I have installed the modified "Bill's" unit with the external fuses. Non the fuses burned! The glow plug light does not come on after starting the engine, like before. Still on a cold day, I get smoke and it does't run on all 5 cylinders. If the glow plug is defective, should the fuse burn? Or is there another problem. Before starting to replace the GP's for no reason as they are buried and risking breaking one, someone please chime in.I do not have scanner to read any codes. Everything else seems fine.
Any suggestions are appreciated!!
Eugene
Is there a trick to remove the el. connectors from the GP...like the fuel line clips? Do they just pull up?

cahaak
11-22-2011, 09:16 PM
There is no trick to removing the connector, they just pull up and off, but they are not the easiest to get to. The fuse will only fail if the GP failed in a shorted state. The GP could fail open and then the fuse would be intact, but in fact no current would be going to the GP and it would not be working, that may be the case for you.

Chris

Evzen
11-23-2011, 03:46 PM
Thanks Chris! It is a start. I will attack it today, it is @60F outside today.
Eugene

surlyoldbill
11-23-2011, 07:33 PM
Thanks Chris! It is a start. I will attack it today, it is @60F outside today.
Eugene

Eugene, I popped open your old module just now to tell you which GP's you might need to replace, but NONE of the fusable links were blown. If anyone has a quick and easy way to test if a GP is non-functional without removing it, please share.

Fused to ground or drawing excess current will blow a fuse.

whitedog
11-23-2011, 09:55 PM
Eugene, I popped open your old module just now to tell you which GP's you might need to replace, but NONE of the fusable links were blown. If anyone has a quick and easy way to test if a GP is non-functional without removing it, please share.

Fused to ground or drawing excess current will blow a fuse.

An open glow plug won't work, but will it throw a code on Sprinters?

talkinghorse43
11-23-2011, 10:11 PM
Does on mine.

Evzen
11-24-2011, 03:56 PM
So, I did it yesterday!
Before removing them I put 10Amp fuses it to Bill's relay, instead the 30 Amp. 3 were blown and 2 did not. After removing them ( first, the easiest to get to, broke, just the stem came out). I tested them out, and the two , that the fuse did not burn, did not glow. So they were bad inside. our theory prove to be correct. My original relay sensed something wrong.
What a job, not looking forward to do it again. I had to remove the fuel line to the last cylinder, in order to remove the electrical connection.
I cannot believe, that serviceable item like that could not be more accessible, like under the injector cover. The whole job is pretty much done on feel, than what you can see. Some scary moments before and after the first "crack" when they come loose. # 3 was hard to get out and back in. There were no stripped tread debris visible. I put US made glow plugs in from Accurate Technical Services. They are dual coil and I hope they will last longer. Time will tell.
Thank you all very much for you input!
Eugene

surlyoldbill
11-24-2011, 05:19 PM
So, I did it yesterday!
Before removing them I put 10Amp fuses it to Bill's relay, instead the 30 Amp. 3 were blown and 2 did not. After removing them ( first, the easiest to get to, broke, just the stem came out). I tested them out, and the two , that the fuse did not burn, did not glow. So they were bad inside. our theory prove to be correct. My original relay sensed something wrong.
What a job, not looking forward to do it again. I had to remove the fuel line to the last cylinder, in order to remove the electrical connection.
I cannot believe, that serviceable item like that could not be more accessible, like under the injector cover. The whole job is pretty much done on feel, than what you can see. Some scary moments before and after the first "crack" when they come loose. # 3 was hard to get out and back in. There were no stripped tread debris visible. I put US made glow plugs in from Accurate Technical Services. They are dual coil and I hope they will last longer. Time will tell.
Thank you all very much for you input!
Eugene

Eugene, you'll now be credited with the discovery of the test to find non-functioning glowplugs! If it doesn't blow a low amp fuse, it's probably dead. A 50 cent test if you have a modified module.

So you replaced all 5? How did you get the broken one out?

abittenbinder
11-24-2011, 05:57 PM
Eugene, you'll now be credited with the discovery of the test to find non-functioning glowplugs! If it doesn't blow a low amp fuse, it's probably dead. A 50 cent test if you have a modified module.

So you replaced all 5? How did you get the broken one out?

That is not the easiest or most accurate test for open glow plugs.

See my old original post for making a simple fused glow plug test wire. https://sprinter-source.com/forum/showpost.php?p=5232&postcount=17

Connect to each glow plug pin socket in the engine harness connector at the glow module, one at a time. Simply brush the clip you would normally clamp to the battery + post, across the + post, for each glow plug pin test.

Pins are numbered on back side of plug with an accurate glow plug location.

A strong, harsh spark (if you're quick) or a blown fuse (if you're slow) indicates a failed shorted plug.

A gentle brush of sparks ,and no blow 20A fuse in 10 second, indicates a operating glow plug.

NO sparking indicates a open circuit glow plug.

Easy to see in strong daylight.

Doktor A

surlyoldbill
11-24-2011, 06:21 PM
Probably best done in the dark instead of high noon on a sunny day.

Evzen
11-24-2011, 07:55 PM
Bill, yes I replaced all 5 , got the broken out. How it broke was my fault. Someone suggested to hit them pretty hard first. I used smaller socket for that , but small enough...! Pretty scary to break the first one. I did not to hit the rest of them.
Thanks for your modified unit, pretty simple test from now on. It is like 5 testing fuse links in one. Fuses are cheap:lol:
Eugene

surlyoldbill
11-25-2011, 04:20 AM
Bill, yes I replaced all 5 , got the broken out. How it broke was my fault. Someone suggested to hit them pretty hard first. I used smaller socket for that , but small enough...! Pretty scary to break the first one. I did not to hit the rest of them.
Thanks for your modified unit, pretty simple test from now on. It is like 5 testing fuse links in one. Fuses are cheap:lol:
Eugene

I like Dr Andy's test, too.

correllbil
11-25-2011, 12:41 PM
Ok, here is a good question. Does the glow plug actually glow when it is activated? I think I will lite one up and see if it gets hot enough to "glow".

Billy C.

Altered Sprinter
11-25-2011, 02:02 PM
Ok, here is a good question. Does the glow plug actually glow when it is activated? I think I will lite one up and see if it gets hot enough to "glow".

Billy C. The answer is yes.
38825

38826

38827
One of the quirks of the sprinters electrical system is a fully blown glow plug,the glow light showing on you dash plus a EDC light results over voltage. not always the cause but well known on a diagnostic test from MB
Richard

la90043
08-10-2014, 12:43 AM
so regarding the 2007 with the 3.0l OM642. Is it also A problem?

glow plugs also being a potential problem too? Or is it limited to the previous sprinter with that particular glow plug design? Manufacturer?

lindenengineering
08-10-2014, 02:05 AM
Broad statement.
Less prone but you do get them occasionally seized in the head and cross threaded by a previous installer.
Being thinner you have to treat them very carefully or they will snap off at the hex head section.

Drilling them out is harder due to head casting designs and pockets.
I use a timesert to recover the threaded hole and set the new one in the head. Seems to work for me.

Remember on these engines the glow plug is used for re-gen (de-soot) activities so its an important and an integral part of the sub system and must be maintained to ensure proper de-sooting.
Dennis

la90043
08-10-2014, 02:47 AM
I understand. Thank you. so right now I have all six 6 glow plugs that are installed now in the engine 3.0L OM642 soaked in with nut bolt penetrant.

Being thinner you have to treat them very carefully or they will snap off at the hex head section.

ok then. please tell me how to treat them and what to feel and look for when gently beginning to remove each one? what is your past knowledge experience on this particular glow plug 3.0l om642 please. Thanks for the past reply too. Rob.

lindenengineering
08-10-2014, 05:31 AM
Robb
From what I see it makes no difference if the head is hot or cold unlike the older 5 banger which seems to "like" being very hot before you crack them loose.

I usually approach them with a double depth 8mm six point socket, short extension and 12 inch pivot head Snap On ratchet. A slight nudge with the tool usually cracks them free and they will freely spin out.
If they have a tendency to bind, I spray the plug cavity with Pen' lube and work them gently back and forth increasing the rotation each time feeling for a yield point. Obviously a bit of mechanical sympathy is required to successfully remove the glow without sheering it off.

Of course I have recently sheered one off having been crossed threaded and the hex head "cocked" a few degrees to one side (easy done if you force it). What the mech' was doing when he installed it was anyone's guess and a quick thread chase and clear with compressed air would have most likely have made a successful install which was easy to subsequently remove it.
The comment I got from the previous installer was well I am not a diesel mechanic--lame excuse!
Just go easy and take your time if they are tight, even train a blow lamp on them if it will help the removal.
Best of luck
Dennis

la90043
08-10-2014, 07:36 AM
I have A blow lamp torch at standby. Thank you A whole bunch for your post knowledge. Have A great day too. Rob

Thefwafwa
09-11-2014, 12:48 AM
Derek,
I have a 2002 Freightliner Sprinter 2500 Engine.. And I just replaced the control module for my glow plugs.. But have found the plugs a bit puzzling to take out.. There seems to be little to no actual room to fit a wrench in that area to loosen the "cap" above the plugs.. A fuel line looks to be in the way.. How did you get your Glow Plugs out?
Many Thanks,
-Rach

teamtexas
11-26-2014, 09:59 AM
Well I guess it's time to revisit this post. I have a modified relay with fuses that I put in years ago when I lost a glow plug and the relay. The glow plug light came on again the last time I drove her. I checked the 5 20 amp fuses, but none are blown. I think I will try the (5) 10amp fuse trick and see if I have one that's open. I have about 137, 000 miles on Mona these days. I wonder if I should go ahead and try to change them all? Scary!
Dan

ktm 300
12-01-2014, 10:04 PM
I b ought an 04 2500 2yrs ago with 38k miles. Didn't know about the glow plug situation then. Anyone care to guess which is more pertinent, age or mileage? I've got 80k on it now. Would it be helpfull to idle the engine (after getting up to temp) without the fan belt to raise the hd temp up to say 220?

sikwan
12-01-2014, 10:11 PM
I would drive it around the block if you can to raise the temp. Idling will take a long time, unless you can activate the diesel heater.

superstardj
02-05-2016, 11:32 PM
as anybody tried the tool kit to remove broken glow plugs?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HKuniumG6LI
does it work ?