Advice/Comments from MB Sprinter Engineer

During my quest to find out all that I could about the Sprinter before I bought one, I finally used family connections to speak with a senior production engineer in the Dusseldorf plant in Germany. Lucky for me I speak German. My first question was, are the German 3.0L diesels the same as the US version. The answer was…the engines are identical except for bolt on emissions required by the US. I asked why the German diesels have a recommend oil maintence schedule of 24k miles while the US version has a maintence schedule of oil 10k. He laughed and said …this was a decision based on the US market. He detailed 3 points, 1) no vehicle in the US had a 24k change cycle and the fear was that if that long of a cycle was given, people would forget or not change their oil as well as not have their vehicle have preventative inspections that are now done during the 10K changes. 2) since the proper oil in the US is not widely available, it would cause less damage to the engine if the wrong oil was accidently used and was changed on a shorter cycle….but he questioned this logic himself 3) There was also concern that if there was no need to go into the shop except for every 1.5 years (24K miles) service revenue would fall.

He then went on to explain that changing the oil on a diesel Sprinter was designed to be a “clean affair”.
No need to get dirty. He pointed out in Germany; most Sprinter owners perform their own maintence. The engine was designed to have the oil sucked out of the fill pipe like a boat, not to pull a plug from below like most US vehicles. He recommended that I buy a boat oil/siphon pump to remove the oil through the fill pipe. This way I could pump the oil out into a receptacle versus a drain pan….much cleaner. The oil filter is on top of the engine for easy access…another easy change and can be done without mess. He did recommend that during the warranty period to change the oil every 10K to prevent voiding of the warranty, but every 24k after warranty expires. He also said that since many places in the US have low quality diesel to change the fuel filter every 10K if not sooner. He also recommended that I change the oil myself that way I know the “proper” MB spec’d oil was used. Lube it myself, and visually inspect the hoses, belts, ect…myself after every change. I called several Freightliner and Dodge maintence departments around the US about what oil they would use for a ’08 Sprinter…ALL quoted the Mobil 1 ESP as I expected (it’s in the book)… but they also added on their own (I did not expect this) that if the Mobil 1 ESP was out, they would use an “acceptable alternate”….since they added the “acceptable alternate” part I will assume they have a cheaper oil that they prefer, higher profit margins.

I asked him why are there so many issues with the US version of the Sprinter….he quickly had 2 reasons…bad fuel and wrong oil. He said that the new 3.0 absolutely requires ULSD. Even 1 tank of LSD can cause problems. The use of the wrong oil will also cause issues. He noted, you must use Mobil 1 ESP or and ESP equivalent. His recommendation…use Mobil 1 ESP as that is what is used by the factory. He also noted NOT to change oil before 10K as it is essential to keep the Mobil break in oil specially formulated for MB in the engine for at least 10K. Then to make sure that the next oil change is absolutely Mobil 1 ESP oil. Again he stressed fuel filter changes as an absolute must in the US. He also alluded to untrained mechanics working on Sprinters. He said; just because you can work on a Dodge, does not mean you are qualified to work on a MB. He said the level of training that a MB mechanic in Germany goes through is extensive, time consuming, and not cheap. Most US dealership will not incur this expense and try and substitute training with a few on-line courses.

The reason behind his convictions for these recommendations…after all the issues relating to the US emissions equipped engines and the EGR value, MB took a US version and ran it in Germany for an extended period…no issues. They sent engineers to evaluate the issues…everything came back to diesel quality and oil. After the engineers were finished with their evaluation, the H44(ECM) recall was issued. This recall reprograms the engine to extend the “self clean” mode in an attempt to account for the bad diesel and oil.

I asked him about transmission issues. (I have personal experience with my US vehicles in this department). His comment…they actually lowered the GVWR because of people overloading the vehicle due to its large cargo size…in attempt to prevent issues. He noted transmission issues are not localized to the US. No issue should arise if the vehicle is not continually subjected to overloading. However, because of high fuel prices and ever tightening margins…commercial operators choose the Sprinter because of its size…then load it up as if it were an 18 wheeler…Since I plan on using mine as a passenger van he said I should have no issues.

I asked him about idling the vehicle in case I wanted to pull over and sleep in it at night while traveling. (A.C) He said…not recommend as the Sprinter engine wants to be “driven, driven, driven”…if you must idle he said, keep it at 1200 RPMS with a high idle control. He also said, do not park for several weeks. Make sure you drive the vehicle regularly…it wants to be “driven, driven, driven”.

He said the Sprinter was a good vehicle and designed to last a lifetime…however he said …it is a highly engineered vehicle that needs proper care….and food(fuel/oil). He personified the Sprinter and compared it to a friendship…If you take care of it and nurture it with the proper care and attention it will last a lifetime…however if you neglect and abuse it…it will fade by the wayside.

Sorry for the long post…just wanted to share what I learned…

well said and well written
this has been said on this forum before about diesel fuel quailty in the states differs from euro land
the right engine oil is a must on these vehicles
and as the german guy says these are well designed vehicles built to last
hope you enjoy your van
regards
chris

Happy Family Man thank you for a U.S explanation re fuel,oil and servicing,as I have stated on the forum since the instigation of the start period over the years, both fuel and oil for the N/American sprinters don't match the oils ASTM International standards or the fuel quality as to exemptions on Fame specifications or cetane levels due to lack of lubricants to compensate for the excessively higher concentrations of sulphur content due to the actual grades of Heavy based oils used in the States.
Extended oil changes are possible to 44 thousand kilometres I don't state this is possible at your end as to the explanations you have given , but thank you for a very unique posting.
PS you forgot to ask him why the engines,HP have been de-tuned.
Richard

This is all great information.

That said, Daimler (DC at the time) should have done the proper market research and realized fuel in North America is not the same as in Europe and designed for it. If the emission parts for NA are as stated "bolt on" for this market then they should have been designed for this market. There are hundreds of thousands of other diesel vehicles on the road in NA with EGR. On other internet boards I don't see a large cry from owners of other vehicles about unresolved EGR issues. Not every Sprinter has them either, I have yet to have an episode in 50,000 miles. I buy fuel from the truckstops, RARELY run an additive in it, and use the correct oil. Of note, I change my fuel filter every 30,000 miles and at the time it had less than 1/2 of a gram of contaminant in it.

The remarks about oil........fine, it needs special oil and was available at the dealers right away, other oils are available as well (not many but some!) but to blame the issues on NA diesel quality and other NA market realities is pretty poor management, you would think the costs of providing potential warranty on all these issues would be have been enough for it to be properly engineered for this marketplace.

Most people realize this van is a Mercedes, what damage is MB doing to their reputation in North America by just pointing the finger at (basically) their customers and saying it's their fault because they live in a market with lower standards (fuel and tech training mentioned). Sure it is true, but it didn't suddenly get this way after the Sprinter was launched.

Thank you to the original poster for providing this information though, it was a very interesting read!!

Piper

I agree in totality with your post. The excuse, and it is an excuse, that our diesel is the problem is not the problem. What kind of arrogance and disrespect for the market does Daimler hold that they would blame the problem with their vehicles on our cetane rating...It is not and as far as I know never has been a secret. When I sell my fire ant powered widget to Jon knowing full well where he lives there are no fire ants and the only thing he can power with is inferior North West black ants, should I warn him? Its OK Jon, I'll replace your BAF (black ant filter) under warranty, forever ???...eh...maybe not.

I really enjoy my Sprinter, it serves a purpose for me that no other van could fill. Quirks...It has a few (To be read with Frank Sinatra's I Did it My Way)...Left me stranded no. I have visited several dealers with mixed results but always came away with the same feeling, training and lack there of. My EGR valve was replaced 9 months ago not because I had a problem, but because the tech said I would have a problem. Why would I have a problem, he didn't know, I just would. The service writer at another dealer wanted to argue about what kind of oil to use (the wrong kind, she was looking at a combined chart of gas and diesel Sprinters). If I am going to market a widget and I care about my brand I will take steps to assure quality at my widget repair facilities.

The sadness is they realize they can replace a lot of EGR valves, crank position sensors, carrier bearings, and drive shafts and still make a huge profit. As far as brand I would supect that Damlier does not look at the typical North American Sprinter owner as a potential Mercedes buyer. We can blame this on Dodge, but it's still a Daimler brand.

After reading the comments of the gentleman from Germany, I realize I am too too stupid to decide when to change my own oil...because...I live in North America.

This confirms what I've known for decades...If you want a trully great German car where the manufacturer doesn't look down their nose at you...Buy an AUDI...

Thank you Happy Family Van for a great post.

gary

So does this mean we have the same hp\tq ratings of the euro versions or the emissions parts lower the engine output, if so which parts?

Does the Euro version use a different, if any EGR valve.
And unfortunately the engineers remarks about stupid Americans is true, I see them Daily. Very sad state of affairs.

For clarification…the engineer did not remark that American mechanics were stupid.
He just commented that dealerships were unwilling to pay for adequate training. Same goes for MB mechanics, if they are not trained to work on Dodges appropriately, how you can expect them to be qualified to fix a Dodge. There was no indication as to intelligence…it was strictly in reference to training. I apologize if the way I worded the conversation indicated anything else.

I called back today about knowing the market and our diesel …ie the bad fuel here in the States…maybe bad fuel was misleading….he was referencing the high content of sulfur in non ULSD diesel as well as stale diesel. Gas stations that do not have a high turnover in diesel are stations to be avoided. Highway truck stops are the best place to fuel up. As the fuel turnover is frequent. He also said drive away from the station if you see them filling the tanks…sediment gets stirred up and needs time to settle. Again he stressed….ULSD only…. I called a major oil company today and was informed that currently ~80% of all stations in the US have ULSD. …but that sill leaves 20% with non ULSD. I was also informed that by 12/01/10 only ULSD will be available in the US.

As for the oil…the proper oil was and is available to the dealers…but the question is…do they use it?…from mine own calls to various dealers…I do not like the “acceptable alternative” comments that I received….as for its wide availability through chain stores… If customers ask…they may stock it…otherwise you may have to go to a MB dealer, special order, Freightliner dealer, or Dodger dealer and buy it. If you buy it from a dealer and change it yourself…at least you will know you have the proper oil in your engine versus the dealer using an “acceptable alternative” when you have the oil changed in the shop…I am not aware of how you can visibly check the oil to verify that the dealer used the correct oil…and I do not think it would be cost effective to send samples from my engine after every change to a lab and have it tested to see if I got the correct oil. My train of thought…change it myself…then I know what I get…drive it to a deanship…pay the $20 and have the ASSYST reset….It is for each person to judge the level of trust they have in the dealership or mechanic that they work with…but for me…better safe than sorry on maintence items for which I pay…Warranty work….dealers make money on this so it is not an issue for them to replace items over and over….Dodge pays for this….so for warranty work…I have no issues with dealer to fixing.

The HP differential…he was not aware of any difference as the engines are the exact same expect for emissions…potentially misprint in literature….he could not imagine that the US emissions equipment would make that much of a difference…but he will look into it and get back with me.

Hope this clears things up.

qualityair said:

Does the Euro version use a different, if any EGR valve.
And unfortunately the engineers remarks about stupid Americans is true, I see them Daily. Very sad state of affairs.

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don't forget, there is one in EVERY crowd. americans, germans, chinese,...

bb

thanks happyfamily for sharing your "inside" information. it is always nice to get the skinny from the inside.

bb

Americans are not stupid , never were the fault lies with mangemnt not committing to R&D and training.
The HP difference is not a misprint it'/s too well documented by both Daimler and the U.S side.
PS That's a global issue as well. that is to training.
Richard

Altered Sprinter said:

{A}s I have stated on the forum since the instigation of the start period over the years, both fuel and oil for the N/American sprinters don't match the oils ASTM International standards or the fuel quality as to exemptions on Fame specifications or cetane levels due to lack of lubricants to compensate for the excessively higher concentrations of sulphur content due to the actual grades of Heavy based oils used in the States.

Richard

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Richard: As Sprinters are also built in Argentina and sold throughout South America, and South Africa is also a large Sprinter market, what are the diesel standards and the reality of diesel readily available there? Or does Daimler sell only de-rated Sprinter engines in these markets?

HK cetane minim is 47 Cn two winter fuels available Mountain and alpine do not know the differences between the two? all fuels have a lubricity agent to help negate sulphur build-up.

There are reference's From Daimler Asia Pacific to investigate with the local fuel distributors for an additional upper cylinder lubricant to match the fuel standards But not from Chrysler Daimler Australia, now renamed,Daimler.

But Like you we went through a rapid change in fuels since 1998 to 2002 Standard diesel 5000/pm to LSD 3000/5000 /ppm to ULSD in 2006 15 /ppm 300 not to exceed 500/ppm Now 10/ppm 50 Cetane High performance diesel and down to 8/ppm the latter still being trailed in Western Australia and Tasmania via BP Australia. under 150/ppm but not certified as a ASTM Standard as of yet?

We have had the same problems you guys had but on older sprinters, say 2000 to 2003 after they changed hands two or three times now 5 to six years old, as to No 5 injector failing and no 1 on the 4 pots , not maintained driven until they stopped 240 thousand kilometres seems to be the range where failure comes in, {Repeat Not maintained by the cowboy operators who drive them, and yes they moan and blame MB } but the mechanics had no problems removing them, and exchange heads via a partnership of Daimler via Alliance re- manufacturing is available for a 48 Hr turn-around on exchange parts. same as injectors they can be re manufactured to OEM specks. Glow plugs are to be replaced every five years according to bosh as to start cycles and degrading of them with-in five years.

We have eight or eleven refiners from the top of my head and it's interesting as to your refineries at your end, The Australian Government passed legislation fro the refineries to upgrade to the standards, required to meet Euro 4 specks BP was the first Shell followed Mobil and Caltex were the most vocal as to lobbying against it, the Handsard papers are word for word as to your end with both Caltex Chevron and Mobil Exxon lobbying against the change they have until sept 2009 to do it ir get out of Australia Mobil sold of it's stations to Caltex same your end.

Our fuel is not shipped via transmix so contamination of cross mixing of fuels is not a problem as it's shipped from Hub refineries blended and sent via Tankers either ship or road trains.

I honestly don't know why you have an EGR valve but I'm speculating as to the quality of fuel highly variable from 300 minim to no more than 500 /ppm winter fuel mix hitting eight hundred parts per million to 22/ppm resulting in unburned fuels thus blocking the valve with excessive carbon. To clarify the above statement different refineries in the U.S with different standards based on what they can ship via the lines as to operators objecting to any type of additive in a fuel that will in effect clean the lines which will further to dis-grade, the quality of the said mix of fuels in bulk transportation of fuel through out the States it's a smack in the face to Government and to the uses as to the line operators monopolizing the standards especially when those lines are supposed to be pigged out on a regular basis.

Most of the U.S refineries were built in the early twenty's and lines are as old in many areas,it's a logistical nightmare to sort it out as to stakeholders objecting as to cost of rebuilding.

Happy Family Man has given you a report all I have done is show the dark side of the reasoning behind it as to political and stakeholders interests that have in the past stalled the rebuilding and up-grading of the U.S infrastructure.

With Euro 5 coming on line and fuels pp/m going below to 5/ppm it's going to be a tough call to get this resolved in the u.S as to the cost involved.
Sorry HK: I have no magic cure except use a non-alcohol based upper cylinder enchantress and the best engine oils, you can get. to help our sprinters along.
Richard

HappyFamilyVan,
Thank you, thank you, thank you for the insight into many of our Sprinter questions and issues.
I knew when I bought my '08 144 that it would be a "stepchild" as far as my Dodge dealer was concerned. However, having serviced and repaired most items on my vehicles for the last 50 years I felt that I could live with the incompetence of the dealer if I could just get the parts needed for maintenance.

I bought it for the engineering excellence, build quality, roomy on board space, and good fuel economy. I took my own Mobile ESP oil to the dealer for the first oil change at 12,000 miles, and his shop ( the largest Sprinter dealer in the Tulsa area) did not even have the proper oil filter wrench to remove the oil filter cap ... I watched the mechanic just fiddle and wrench the cap off with large pliers. I had to tell them that the fuel filter was supposed to be changed! I won't take it back to them for anything but warranty repairs. They treat their Sprinter business like it was a bother to them. I could say something about the arrogant nature of the failed Chrysler company, but ... I won't.

Thanks again and if you learn more from your source, please pass it onto us here on the forum.

Altered Sprinter said:

The HP difference is not a misprint it'/s too well documented by both Daimler and the U.S side.

Richard

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I agree with this.

SprinterUK sent me the OEM info on my Sprinter, based on my VIN. According to the report, I do not drive a 318 cdi, as all the NCV3 diesel MB badges in the US would say.

Daimler calls it a 315 cdi.

It's my understanding that 318 means "3 tonne, 18(4) HP cdi"

As I read my OEM info, I drive a "3 tonne, 15(4) HP" cdi. This matches the labeling under the hood. There's a difference, at least on Daimler paper, regardless of the physical properties purported.

Next I want to say, as others have, that I really appreciate the information. Much of it rings true with my own ownership practices and my experiences. It's nice to get a confirmation that I am not (necessarily) just an exceptionally lucky owner.


-Jon

A decent thread for once funny how the circle turns around as to sorting that HP one out a few years back but it will always come back in a new thread to haunt us once more.
I honestly hope in time you guys get a decent break, you deserve it.
Richard

My understanding, was that a 315CDI was only available in the inline 4 and if you had a V6 its was a 318CDI.
No where could I fine refernce for a 315CDI V6....
But Jon based on your VIN info it looks like a 315CDI V6 is possible....interesting...Looks I have another call to Germany...

I think it's really valuable that a Daimler employee has confirmed what we've all be talking about: fuel, oil, EGR system fouling and how our ownership practices can mitigate the situation. We can't change the fuel problem, but we can mitigate its impact by fueling at sites that don't dispense stale fuel.

I also wish more retail fuel suppliers would put particulate and water separating, spin on filters on their pumps; and change them regularly. This practice has to help keep sediment out of the vehicle and if someone would fund the study, I suspect we'd find that a last ditch effort at polishing the fuel before it's used in the vehicle may provide a small benefit in terms of pollution, as well as vehicle health. The initial posting supports my suspicion that such filters help prevent performance issues.

It's also nice to know that a product engineer at Daimler confirms what the MB enthusiasts have been saying about oil changes: the system was designed to be a clean affair and oil should be removed through the top side. If I could find a fluid extractor with a long enough tube, I do this; but the fluid extractors available from local retailers are for boats. I have one. I've been unsuccessful at adapting a sturdy enough tube with enough reach to hit the lower oil pan from the top side of the Sprinter. Mostly I use it on my lawn mower and my girl friend's scooter. Very sad.

-Jon

It may not have occurred to anyone as to the reason behind an automated oil change and engine flush as to the healthcare and safety factors , as to Diesel is a known and proven carcinogenic.
Work-place safety practices in my state are voluntary adhered to as to meeting disposal of waste diesel products. the mechanics love it as no diesel getting on their hands and arms etc ,as the fluid can be absorbed through the skin. toxins build up and cancer is a factor as to reasoning of the use of automated oil changing techniques.
Richard

HappyFamilyVan said:

He also said, do not park for several weeks. Make sure you drive the vehicle regularly…it wants to be “driven, driven, driven”.

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This advice of course applys to all vehicles and engines, whether designed for road, dirt, water, or air.
My question for the group is:
Is this advice of more importance related to diesel Sprinters than any other internal combustion powered vehicle?