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TrucksMedicAided
09-23-2018, 04:06 PM
After looking at the amount of time and energy folks have put into routing the small diesel line underneath the vehicle, I got an idea. How about I just run the line up through the driverís seat base, through the floor electrical pass though, back down through the passenger seat area and into the Espar? I get that if the line breaks there could be some diesel in cab, but I think thatís pretty unlikely.

lindenengineering
09-23-2018, 04:32 PM
Well in theory its a good idea!
In practice well--:idunno:

If you read the manual --you know that instruction sheet!!!!! Or even attend a factory installation course and get certified as a certified installer, then it will be a frowned upon idea.

Basically the problem arises out of getting unavoidable air bubbles and accumulated air pockets out of the fuel line which causes bad starting and flame outs in service!

Yes I know --Who reads manuals and who would be stupid enough to go on a factory course to install and repair the heater--Answer! Only us grubby mechanics do that--& then under some protestation !!
Its a male thing we can't help it!:lol:
All the best
Dennis

JFloFoto
09-23-2018, 04:35 PM
I wouldn't. Failure risk is small doing it the way you propose, but so is the investment of time to do it right.

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Bobnoxious
09-23-2018, 04:41 PM
After looking at the amount of time and energy folks have put into routing the small diesel line underneath the vehicle, I got an idea. How about I just run the line up through the driverís seat base, through the floor electrical pass though, back down through the passenger seat area and into the Espar? I get that if the line breaks there could be some diesel in cab, but I think thatís pretty unlikely.

Safety should be paramount over ease of installation. I would not route any fuel lines inside the passenger compartment. In fact, I don't like the concept of combustion inside the compartment. Install a carbon monoxide detector.

4wheels
09-23-2018, 08:03 PM
It was done on in-law's Sprinter . 4 years now .. 385k ..Just put that fuel line in one more line .

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Bobnoxious
09-23-2018, 08:55 PM
And there I was...driving down the road with no particular place to go. In an instant, I heard tires screeching and the crunching sound of metal clashing against metal and bones yielding to metal.

I awoke upside down, still strapped to the driver's seat, blood everywhere. A pungent liquid running down my body and into my eyes. Diesel! My mind raced as my lungs filled with acrid smoke. Frantically, I scratched and clawed at the seatbelt buckle but it wouldn't release, only to realize my arms had been severed just below the elbow. I looked up and realized my fate was sealed, the result of ruptured fuel line I routed inside the passenger compartment.

Flames erupted and I screamed in agony as flames licked my eyeballs and broiled my brains. And......

TrucksMedicAided
09-23-2018, 09:07 PM
ďBasically the problem arises out of getting unavoidable air bubbles and accumulated air pockets out of the fuel line which causes bad starting and flame outs in service!Ē

Why would this method incure air bubbles? It it because the line goes up and down?

Bobnoxious
09-23-2018, 10:49 PM
http://diysprinter.co.uk/reference/espar_sprinter_manual.pdf

lindenengineering
09-23-2018, 10:57 PM
The answer is due to the ingress of minute air bubbles created either naturally due to air in the fuel as you fill & a thing called meniscus.
Add that to a slight tendency for air to get past the clamped joints in the fuel line assy and you have a ripe situation for a flame or or a non starter. The install trick is to minimize the build up of an air pocket.

This is the most common issue I see with non trained DIY installs on camper vans like Sprinters.
In just about all installs the odd air bubble or two is inevitable and these can be observed flowing unhindered up into the heater where occasionally you "might" hear a warble of a split second misfire.
Both Webasto & Espar draw your attention to clamping, insertion of hose into connectors this avoiding air pocket formation & stalling.
Also fuel pump angle, pipe layout and inclination are mentioned and during training courses these salient points are emphasized by a on the job technical assessment by the trainee installer and instructor.
The final task is lay out the capillary hose so that these occasional air bubbles do not accumulate any adverse bend or up hill runs that stalls to continuous pulse fuel flow, since this will cause a large air slug or air pocket to form in the line. This big accumulated air pocket will inevitably will move up into the into the heater and causes a flame out or failed start with shut down lock outs .
Dennis

JFloFoto
09-23-2018, 11:21 PM
Flames erupted and I screamed in agony as flames licked my eyeballs and broiled my brains. And......

I handled a wrongful death case like that once. The rescuers couldn't get him out in time.

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Bobnoxious
09-23-2018, 11:45 PM
I handled a wrongful death case like that once. The rescuers couldn't get him out in time.

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Please excuse my grotesque articulation to make my point.

JFloFoto
09-24-2018, 12:00 AM
Please excuse my grotesque articulation to make my point.It happens, which is exactly why you and I would never cut corners when personal safety is at stake.

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TrucksMedicAided
09-24-2018, 12:24 AM
Well in theory its a good idea!
In practice well--:idunno:

If you read the manual --you know that instruction sheet!!!!! Or even attend a factory installation course and get certified as a certified installer, then it will be a frowned upon idea.

Basically the problem arises out of getting unavoidable air bubbles and accumulated air pockets out of the fuel line which causes bad starting and flame outs in service!

Yes I know --Who reads manuals and who would be stupid enough to go on a factory course to install and repair the heater--Answer! Only us grubby mechanics do that--& then under some protestation !!
Its a male thing we can't help it!:lol:
All the best
Dennis

I read the manual. Thereís really nothing that seems to jump out prohibiting it. Iím really donít see this install as anything too cerebral, just looking to see if anyone had any luck trying the t this way.

lindenengineering
09-24-2018, 12:43 AM
No
Because you are supposed to be a certified installer to bung these units in vehicles.
But unconvinced just go try it --if it works all power to you.
If it doesn't simply just cut the line out and do it the propah way!

Really its the same as good trained advise I give to people installing these things- Don't puncture the tank for the stand pipe! Rather insert it in the fuel pump cartridge, but some do & some have success in the short term some totally bugger it all up!

I advise using the correct stand pipe --Most do not and wing it --some have success and some don't . I have advised the way to do it properly some follow that some don't.

Lets be frank here!
If someone makes a pigs ear of the job he isn't going to advertise that fact on this forum.
So go ahead and try your experiment & let us know.

Really good advise tells us not to fool around with other mens' wives. Some follow that & then some don't, & suffer the consequences--really it all adds up to the same thing!
Dennis

avanti
09-24-2018, 12:52 AM
Please do not underestimate how critical the fuel delivery setup is with these heaters. All those compulsive-sounding warnings in the installation guide are not BS. My upfitter used a slightly out-of-spec fuel line. Worked fine for a few months. I then spent a year chasing billowing smoke and flameouts. Finally had it diagnosed by someone who knew what he was talking about. Replaced the lines with the proper stuff, serviced the unit, and all has been fine ever since.

Suggest you listen to Those Who Know.

TrucksMedicAided
09-24-2018, 01:03 AM
http://diysprinter.co.uk/reference/espar_sprinter_manual.pdf

Luckily Iím installing in a 2014 with no need to drop/tap the tank.

TrucksMedicAided
09-24-2018, 01:23 AM
Thanks for the replies. Weighing my options. From a fire safety standpoint I think interior is actually safer. It’s not near anything that’s nearly as hot as the exhaust components and significantly less likely to be punctured in cab. I get that it’s fuel nearer to me, but it won’t be running while I’m driving and the minuscule residual diesel fuel left in the line is nowhere near as flameable or plentiful as all the plastic surrounding it. Having the line’s high point above the unit does give me some pause with regard to the potential for air infiltration, I’ll have to research the likelihood of that.

4wheels
09-24-2018, 03:30 AM
2015 , Subaru Impreza . Fuel line goes right on the left side INSIDE the car . There are electrical wires . And no , Subaru was not diesel but GAS .

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lindenengineering
09-24-2018, 04:29 AM
Well, first that fuel line is under of 2,5 bar plus constant positive pressure and is protected by a shield in some areas.
The fuel fired heater system is supplied by a very low pressure pulse pump system through a capillary line.
You are not comparing eggs to eggs by your post comparison!
Sorry
Dennis

TrucksMedicAided
09-25-2018, 12:59 AM
Well, first that fuel line is under of 2,5 bar plus constant positive pressure and is protected by a shield in some areas.
The fuel fired heater system is supplied by a very low pressure pulse pump system through a capillary line.
You are not comparing eggs to eggs by your post comparison!
Sorry
Dennis

That makes the Subaru system seem much more dangerous than what I proposed. Itís like comparing eggs(Espar) to chickens(Subaru). Without hard boiling and a decent propulsion device, Iím thinking eggs are less dangerous than chickens.

TrucksMedicAided
09-25-2018, 01:05 AM
2015 , Subaru Impreza . Fuel line goes right on the left side INSIDE the car . There are electrical wires . And no , Subaru was not diesel but GAS .

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Itís too bad we canít get diesel Subaruís in the States. AWD diesel wagon?!?! Yes please. I might even pair socks and sandal together in one of those with John Denver blaring on the stereo.

AKCub
09-25-2018, 01:07 PM
Iím guessing this is a very dramatic retelling of a bad dream you have had but probably not the best input for OPís question. The capillary line and pulse style pump used in these heaters would be hard pressed to produce more than a very small quantity of fuel in your example. I donít actually think the installation manual specifically prohibits routing the fuel line inside the cabin but itís either a standard or close to a standard on vehicles to avoid adding a line containing a flammable liquid inside the cabin. Another reason would be to avoid a point in the line that would hold air and create operational issues as others have mentioned. The requirements for fuel line siting are spelled out pretty well in the Espar manual.
If you did choose to run the fuel line against the norm, some things to consider are chafe protection/inspection for the long run and the wires you are routing the line next to. The cross vehicle chase you are thinking of using doesnít have a ton of extra room so your fuel line would be essentially bundled with electrical lines (also a non standard way of doing things in most vehicles. Iím guessing in the Subaru example the electrical lines are not of the single layer insulation style and probably have additional chafe protection.). The lack of space in that chase would make it tough to inspect the line for damage.

To be clear, I donít think running the line inside is a good idea but if you chose to do so there are some things to consider above and beyond a typical installation.



And there I was...driving down the road with no particular place to go. In an instant, I heard tires screeching and the crunching sound of metal clashing against metal and bones yielding to metal.

I awoke upside down, still strapped to the driver's seat, blood everywhere. A pungent liquid running down my body and into my eyes. Diesel! My mind raced as my lungs filled with acrid smoke. Frantically, I scratched and clawed at the seatbelt buckle but it wouldn't release, only to realize my arms had been severed just below the elbow. I looked up and realized my fate was sealed, the result of ruptured fuel line I routed inside the passenger compartment.

Flames erupted and I screamed in agony as flames licked my eyeballs and broiled my brains. And......