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lindenengineering
09-20-2018, 05:02 AM
Gents.
It wouldn't be right in this text as not to include carbon's abrasive cousin in this submission as to be without it! Consequently this technical observation would have no tangible relevance other than what might be profoundly categorized as musings of the workshop, but physical evidence is afoot ! Hence, it is called "in short" gentlemen and to you the tender fairer sex reading this might call the dastardly common or garden dust & dirt known as "silica" ! In some circles if not all these manifestations known to all as crankshaft & shell bearing failures on OM642 Sprinter engines!
Again in short the word "scouring" is observed as a salient problem not to be overlooked and caused mostly by that black lurking b-laggard in all diesel engines called Carbon or Soot!
Those of dubious filters and inevitable remiss of that what is of common but expensive overheads, called maintenance & giving cause to popular expressions of our latter day rise; This in short called stealerships by popular expression & involvement, plus those terrible grubby Independent repair shops that seem to plague every nook, cranny, & corner of our societies offering advice to the unwary & what one might call highway robbers like Dick Turpin! Obviously made familiar in this case with terms like "Stand and Deliver" being the hue and cry of the latter day in advanced motor vehicle repair facilities all facing the "travails" of the common man!. Akin that is it might be said to having a trophy wife I suppose, that may give you pecuniary nightmares of a particular fashion such as having an unfettered Mastercard in her tender hands on the High St or you retiring on a full stomach and having a mental fit during the night thinking of big end bearings of that broken beloved perambulation called a Sprinter van or GL or E Class "something " What worse the mental convulsions in the middle of Montana with population sum of zero and a dead Sprinter showing "start blocking" as a fault! ! Sadly that this situation has no romantic significance in the the realms of Victorian prose such as it was when you purchased it new with great expectations of the trouble free open road ! These are modern day manifestations are simply as the eloquent conviction made popular by writer's tragedy and of adversity of the dreaded eras depicted with Charles Dickens and his Greek tragedy like novels of humanistic kind.,
Consequently in spite of efficacious attempts to categorize the problem and fend off boastful statements by pundits, including "wisciouos false claims" bordering upon the absurd ! I have this to report with supporting observations including substantiation support from Mahle/Clevite; those renown engine bearing & piston manufacturers of some notoriety and motor industry fame !

The Specimen
2011 Sprinter van with OM642 engine.
Mileage to failure investigation 179,000 miles
Symptoms high oil consumption.

Observations upon tear down.
Engine had been run on various oil brands & weights due to consumption problems. Filters currently installed were all aftermarket including a Napa Wix oil filer and air filter of Chinese origin with about 50 % of dust & dirt contamination.
Removal of the major engine components revealed unusual wearing properties to all shell bearings and of course destruction of oil control rings ! ( the reasons for the original decision to teardown)
Of particular concern was the upper big end bearing shells that had a shiny strip amounting to about 30% width of the the shell bearing in question. Numbers 2 & 3 rod bearing heavily scoured creating a channel like groove clear through the copper lead flashing to the backing steel shell of about a qtr of the bearing length.
Other bearings shells showed similar scour traces but NOT to the same same depth of degradation. Dirt pitting was evident throughout most of the engine bearing shells observed
Oil tests showed no adverse conditions of metal or carbon nor silica contamination other than normal amounts .
Observations of the crankshaft oil gallery drillings revealed again related erosion of the crank counter bore recesses being somewhat oval in nature due to erosion.
Submitting samples to Clevite /Mahle for secondary investigation, the confirmed conclusion from their chief engineer is that carbon scouring is damaging the engine crankshaft & bearings in some case to a point of destruction due to the material erosion & dirt contamination.

This is for now for us at Linden a cause for more more in depth investigation and suggest remedial & preventative measures ! An encore for sure, plus a second appearance at least
Maybe with luck an appearance at the Royal Albert Hall but this really would be workshop musings --Engineering reports even in Victoriana times were never regarded as prose of romantic composition .
Case of the Carbon Scour to be continued.
Don't let yours fall to the carbon scour scourge.
Dennis

Ciprian
09-20-2018, 12:17 PM
Photos please.

Sent from my VS995 using Tapatalk

lindenengineering
09-20-2018, 12:54 PM
Yes I will see if I can post some today.
Then on the other hand why not shoot me an email and I will send it to you directly at 9,00 pm ( dennis @lindenengineering.com)
Really an interesting "find" after 8 differently destroyed engines that defied definite reasons for failure due totally scrubbed & melted shells that defied the reasons why! This was one of those "She's about to blow Capt'n moments".
One of the shells actually has a circular impression on the groove all the way to the backing shell showing the blast of contamination & eroded pattern. Not surprisingly the circular etch pattern is the same diameter as the oil lube hole on the journal.
I held off on reporting this until I got a confirmation from Clevite/Mahle.
I have seen wear like this before but on the other hand not like this its quite distinct and bordering on the unusual .
Dennis

Bobnoxious
09-20-2018, 02:59 PM
Photos please.

Sent from my VS995 using Tapatalk

X2. If there ain't pictures, it didn't happen. In short, change your oil every 5,000 and this won't happen. I can provide supporting data.

Old Crows
09-20-2018, 03:25 PM
Dennis, thanks again for the professional and careful analysis of a Sprinter failure. Looking forward for more info on this issue! (BTW, when you said 'scours'.... my brain went into microbiologist mode and immediately thought of the cattle disease....)

lindenengineering
09-20-2018, 04:22 PM
Basically its your Brillo pad action. Carbon micro particles en-trained in the oil are blasting or scouring the bearing surface to destruction.
It explains in part why a perfectly running good engine suddenly has a rod or main bearing failure without warning.

My latest "event" was an auction purchase by a used car dealer who presented us with a Jeep Gran Cherokee /OM642 as a non starter.
Well we got it running OK but on road test it suddenly developed the familiar knock--#3 rod bearing out!
With a diesel engine oil of no description in it, a Korean oil filter of dubious back ground and a service history of unknown consequences. Probably why it got wholesaled at the local auction!
Dennis

Ed463
09-20-2018, 05:28 PM
The oil filter on the OM642 seems to be pitifully small to my uneducated eye. But. Would the consensus be that if you only use Mercedes genuine filters and high quality, correct spec. oil you could mitigate these failures?
Or maybe a secondary filter? Or am I over thinking it:idunno:

Your examples seem to have a common thread. Poor/unknown maintenance history. Cheap after market filters.
Reminds me of a friend who had the first, yes first oil change carried out on his 3.0 litre diesel Audi A6 at 60k miles. The garage who did it just commented that it seemed very black and very thin:lol:

Old Crows
09-20-2018, 06:20 PM
I agree with Ed. The cartridge OF on our OM-642 is hardly bigger than the OF cartridge on our '14 Sienna' 3.5 V6. Oh wait.... I have a spare of each. I'll see about getting a picture later and some data.

Bobnoxious
09-20-2018, 06:51 PM
So, some time ago, I brought-up a similar issue and was totally poopooed. So, what you're saying is there's sufficient abrasive in oil to elongate oil galleries? Yeah, go ahead, feel free to change oil every 20,000. Aren't diamonds made from carbon?

lindenengineering
09-20-2018, 07:01 PM
Bob Guys
Here are the pictures of the engine in question !
And before you ask the hand is Scottie's my Service Writer

100969

Dennis

Bobnoxious
09-20-2018, 07:09 PM
Nail polish? I am not convinced, hold your hands next to your...handsome mug and take a photo.

lindenengineering
09-20-2018, 07:25 PM
Look at the first photos for a view of the munster fingers!:laughing:
Anyway
This below is a general statement about carbon in big diesel trucks.
The oil filter does little to trap carbon.

Read on:-
A quotation:-
Did you know that soot will enters an engines lubrication oil at the rate of .0048 oz for every gallon of diesel fuel burned? Burn 210 gallons you get 1 oz of soot in the oil. Burn 3360 gallons and get 1 pound of soot in the oil. A large truck will burn 1,786 gallons of fuel every 12,500 miles, at 7 mpg. During this 12,500-mile interval, more than half a pound (8.5oz) of soot will enter the oil. Your standard oil filter doe not catch most of this soot! Today's engines have what is called a full-flow oil filter. These filters generally filter to 25 microns. Two things that you may not know are: (1) A 25 micron filter is only 80% effective, meaning 20% of particles larger than 25 microns are NOT held in the filter and go out to wear out your engine. (2)The other point is that the average oil film thickness between components in your engine is 5 to 20 microns. According to the SAE, particles as small as 4 microns can cause up to 77% of engine wear.
When I worked for the now defunct Leyland Truck and Bus Div, some of our engines had secondary by pass filters to trap these carbon & fine particles .
Food for thought but in this case I don't think "size matters"!
Dennis

danski0224
09-21-2018, 12:40 AM
Any idea what the maintenance history is for these vehicles?

If the oil analysis shows "nothing unusual", then what is the fix or preventative measure?

Is the installation of a bypass engine oil filtration system possible?

Sprinter SS
09-21-2018, 02:20 AM
These extended intervals are nothing but trouble. Did the crank show a clear line of abrasion as well?

Bobnoxious
09-21-2018, 03:08 AM
It is amusing how some owner's will quibble over the meager cost of an oil change. According to Mercedes Benz, "Used motor oil is not a hazardous waste but high grade raw material." Supporting documentation provided upon request.

lindenengineering
09-21-2018, 03:29 AM
Any idea what the maintenance history is for these vehicles?

If the oil analysis shows "nothing unusual", then what is the fix or preventative measure?

Is the installation of a bypass engine oil filtration system possible?

Usually when i see the rig it has usually blown its bottom end out, melted the shell structure or the thing has simply thrown a rod due to someone driving it to destruction. In short not much left to get a clear case of a smoking gun so to speak.

The Jeep I mentioned had the oil changed with a filter before it came in the shop so the oil was reasonably new but even an oil analysis didn't show up anything significant other than the resultant metal heavy contamination results following a bearing failure . I put that down to the oil having been recent changed before it blew up!
In the past I had seen the shiny metal strip register on the bearing shell before, but paid no heed considering it just a registration of oil flow out under pressure of the lubrication port in the crank as negligible wear was present. I simply replaced them as a matter of course.
With this last specimen I in fact stumbled upon it during a re-ring exercise.
Taking a close look at this bearing set and rods it was staring me in the face !!
My smoking gun about a good thrashing away from destruction.
For me a lucky find.

I think my next step is to look into a centrifugal by pass filter as a bolt on accessory to trap the carbon particles from the engine as you drive.

Dennis

lindenengineering
09-21-2018, 03:30 AM
These extended intervals are nothing but trouble. Did the crank show a clear line of abrasion as well?

In short no just the shells .
Dennis

lindenengineering
09-21-2018, 03:31 AM
Any idea what the maintenance history is for these vehicles?

If the oil analysis shows "nothing unusual", then what is the fix or preventative measure?

Is the installation of a bypass engine oil filtration system possible?

As usual nothing to use as a benchmark.
All so far have no history or scant DIY maintenance.
Dennis

Bobnoxious
09-21-2018, 12:10 PM
FACT OR FICTION

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=rKBs6KGcgwI

lindenengineering
09-21-2018, 04:06 PM
Yes Bob
In fact I have been "messing " with ideas and installations based upon either solid filter and/or centrifugal for some time off and on now based upon what i have seen in engine sumps after a 175,000 to 200,000 service.
With various permutations I have yet to determine which one application or style is best for the job. I suppose it now presents some urgent opportunity methinks
Hence !!
Ref my quotation "a second appearance" , "an encore" or "presentation at the Royal Albert Hall" ! In my popular of the latter times "fake" Victoriana style romantic style prose in response to the now deleted crankshaft symposium.:lol:

To the tomes of Land of Hope AND Glory I hope! Ultimately perhaps a successful conclusion--to The Scourge of the Carbon Scour ----Let's not be BASHFUL NOW SHALL WE!:thumbup:
tee heh hee
Cheers Dennis

Bobnoxious
09-21-2018, 07:35 PM
Yes Bob
In fact I have been "messing " with ideas and installations based upon either solid filter and/or centrifugal for some time off and on now based upon what i have seen in engine sumps after a 175,000 to 200,000 service.
With various permutations I have yet to determine which one application or style is best for the job. I suppose it now presents some urgent opportunity methinks
Hence !!
Ref my quotation "a second appearance" , "an encore" or "presentation at the Royal Albert Hall" ! In my popular of the latter times "fake" Victoriana style romantic style prose in response to the now deleted crankshaft symposium.:lol:

To the tomes of Land of Hope AND Glory I hope! Ultimately perhaps a successful conclusion--to The Scourge of the Carbon Scour ----Let's not be BASHFUL NOW SHALL WE!:thumbup:
tee heh hee
Cheers Dennis

Huh? I just want to hear some thoughts about bypass filters and disappointed a "plug and play" set-up is not available to replace the dinky OEM filter with fittings for hoses to relocate the high-flow and low-bypass filters to a location to facilitate servicing and eliminate the need to disassemble a bunch of brittle plastic components.

Bobnoxious
09-21-2018, 07:37 PM
FACT OR FICTION

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=rKBs6KGcgwI

?????

Ed463
09-22-2018, 09:47 AM
OK Dennis, don't shoot me down in flames:lol:
I'm possibly about to enter into your least favourite subjects.
Zero data, zero scientific evidence and
Messing with emission control systems:bash:

So the not very good photo below is of oil which has done around 7.5k miles of mixed urban/short runs but mostly cruising at 55 to 75mph.
It's still translucent and looks pretty clean. The oil analysis with the associated data is "in the post". Honest.
However. This is on a OM642 with an EGR delete. So the question is. Does stopping an engine regurgitate it's oil/exhaust gases make life easier on the oil.

I know, I know!!:bounce: just adding to the debate:lol:

On a serious note I would be interested in preventative maintenance such as a centrifuge oil filter. Ours has 135k miles on it. I'd like to see more than another 40k miles!!

Bobnoxious
09-22-2018, 01:31 PM
OK Dennis, don't shoot me down in flames:lol:
I'm possibly about to enter into your least favourite subjects.
Zero data, zero scientific evidence and
Messing with emission control systems:bash:

So the not very good photo below is of oil which has done around 7.5k miles of mixed urban/short runs but mostly cruising at 55 to 75mph.
It's still translucent and looks pretty clean. The oil analysis with the associated data is "in the post". Honest.
However. This is on a OM642 with an EGR delete. So the question is. Does stopping an engine regurgitate it's oil/exhaust gases make life easier on the oil.

I know, I know!!:bounce: just adding to the debate:lol:

On a serious note I would be interested in preventative maintenance such as a centrifuge oil filter. Ours has 135k miles on it. I'd like to see more than another 40k miles!!


But........wait........some of the forums most respected experts all agree (not me ) it is not possible to use color as a basis to determine the health or service life of oil. Nice looking oil BTW.

lindenengineering
09-22-2018, 03:20 PM
Ed
Hi and hope you are having a great weekend .
Well you have raised a subject close to my heart and that is pollution. With it goes getting the best out of an internal combustion engine that has powered our transportation , & liberated our collective mobility for more than 100 years.
Getting to the point about EGR valves and pollution controls on modern diesel engines it certainly presents enormous challenges, and really i don't think there a definitive answer.
Currently the desire to get clean burning diesel engines as we like to call them and carbon soot getting in the oil and reducing its overall life ends up as being a two edged sword. In short with current technology as it is, the old fashioned song about marriage i.e. you can't have love without the other comes to mind . As with most successful marriages ( and I have had my fair share) its a compromise.
My own personal viewpoint is that the EGR valve in a diesel is a bloody disaster , works of sorts in a petrol engines, up to point. Now over shadowed by the service challenges & maintenance costs of GDI technology that of trying to make a petrol engine work like a diesel.

So yes carbon in engine oil is an abrasive substance .
How much of that in an engine given a set of service circumstances i suppose determines its service life..Does it last a few thousand miles past the "magical " 100,0000 or does it run to about 400,000 before it blows up or loses a cylinder.

Now to secondary filtration whether passive or active.
Certainly Leyland trucks had a 5 micron secondary filter on one PREMIUM engine range as part of the filtration assy hanging on the block.

Then of old our forefathers knew a thing or two.
As an apprentice it became abundantly apparent that the very same engine derivatives we repaired had two different engine oil treatment systems.
Bus, marine and rail engines had centrifugal filters on them by the old now defunct bearing maker called Glacier .
The same could be said of those same derivatives usually being horizontal configurations that had two sumps , one wet one dry where the carbon sludge had a tendency to fall out and collect in the outer casing. Passive filtration of sorts combined with an active centrifugal filter.
Asking the mechanics about that, the answer was always the same. Buses and trains spend a lot of time idling and doing short stop and movement like 10 stops per mile & short trips so carbon build is a problem. On trucks its not like that! They run flat out for the most part so carbon is less of a problem.

Of course the centrifugal filter disappeared over time and cost saving was always the response. That factor alone tells me what we needs to know about anything automotive ! Its all about the money! Make something for the lowest costs possible & compromise to gain maximum profit taking. Its always the salient factor like carbon in oil!
Dennis

Sprinter SS
09-23-2018, 02:06 AM
Another area to consider for intake oil to intake system is the crankcase breathing system. I am sold on the Mann Hummel oil separator for this.

Ed463
09-23-2018, 08:38 AM
Ed
Hi and hope you are having a great weekend .
Well you have raised a subject close to my heart and that is pollution. With it goes getting the best out of an internal combustion engine that has powered our transportation , & liberated our collective mobility for more than 100 years.
Getting to the point about EGR valves and pollution controls on modern diesel engines it certainly presents enormous challenges, and really i don't think there a definitive answer.
Currently the desire to get clean burning diesel engines as we like to call them and carbon soot getting in the oil and reducing its overall life ends up as being a two edged sword. In short with current technology as it is, the old fashioned song about marriage i.e. you can't have love without the other comes to mind . As with most successful marriages ( and I have had my fair share) its a compromise.
My own personal viewpoint is that the EGR valve in a diesel is a bloody disaster , works of sorts in a petrol engines, up to point. Now over shadowed by the service challenges & maintenance costs of GDI technology that of trying to make a petrol engine work like a diesel.

So yes carbon in engine oil is an abrasive substance .
How much of that in an engine given a set of service circumstances i suppose determines its service life..Does it last a few thousand miles past the "magical " 100,0000 or does it run to about 400,000 before it blows up or loses a cylinder.

Now to secondary filtration whether passive or active.
Certainly Leyland trucks had a 5 micron secondary filter on one PREMIUM engine range as part of the filtration assy hanging on the block.

Then of old our forefathers knew a thing or two.
As an apprentice it became abundantly apparent that the very same engine derivatives we repaired had two different engine oil treatment systems.
Bus, marine and rail engines had centrifugal filters on them by the old now defunct bearing maker called Glacier .
The same could be said of those same derivatives usually being horizontal configurations that had two sumps , one wet one dry where the carbon sludge had a tendency to fall out and collect in the outer casing. Passive filtration of sorts combined with an active centrifugal filter.
Asking the mechanics about that, the answer was always the same. Buses and trains spend a lot of time idling and doing short stop and movement like 10 stops per mile & short trips so carbon build is a problem. On trucks its not like that! They run flat out for the most part so carbon is less of a problem.

Of course the centrifugal filter disappeared over time and cost saving was always the response. That factor alone tells me what we needs to know about anything automotive ! Its all about the money! Make something for the lowest costs possible & compromise to gain maximum profit taking. Its always the salient factor like carbon in oil!
Dennis
I'm having a great weekend thanks Dennis, sat in the sun in southern Italy (Basilicata, unknown to most Brits:clapping:) drinking superb wine for less than $3 a bottle and eating superb food.
However, you're attempting to ruin it:idunno: reminding me that I've just bought a direct injection petrol turbo VW:cry:
Complete with EGR.
Yep, they ingest their own waste and suffer from all the issues the Sprinter diesel intake system does.
On the upside, it's a sub 1 litre 3 cylinder turbo which does 74mpg if I try. And (sorry) it's been fiddled with so makes bloated fat arse 300bhp SUV's look very silly:lol::lol: and the 3 cylinder noise is fun.

Ed463
09-23-2018, 09:12 AM
A copy and paste from the internet, so beware!
Just making a point that not all filters are born equal. Why do some people try to save a couple of dollars when they're trying to protect maybe $20k:thinking:


"Info from German Mann employee I spoke to:
Carol Hubbard (U.S.): 269-329-7211 (she forwarded my questions to Germany)
Jurgen Englmaler: 269 327-0057
Sellers: Volkparts.com : 1-800-322-6006 (paid $43.70 for six w/shipping) or
Filtersupplyamerica.com: 904 695-2539
Mann Filters – GTI 1.8t (OEM Supplier)
• Oil Filter (W 719/30) – 9 micron filtration at 99.5 – 99.9% efficiency
- Flow rate: 18 liters/min at ? pressure (tech guy did not know pressure)
- By-pass valve opens at 2.5 bar = 36.3 psi
- Cellulose treated with chemical – no fiberglass filters allowed in Germany
- Long-life filter – has recently been greatly improved to allow VW/Audi’s extended drain intervals
• Air Filter (C 37153) – 2 to 3 micron filtration at 99.8% efficiency
- Flow rate: 6 cubic meters/min at ? pressure (tech guy did not know pressure)
• Fuel Filter (WK 730-1) – 10 micron filtration at ? efficiency
- Flow rate: 90 liters/hr at ? pressure (tech guy did not know)"

lindenengineering
09-23-2018, 01:44 PM
Ed
Well first you are making me envious, Italy and autumn.
Hmm!
Long distant misty memories as an 18 years old on the Triumph mostly in the northern parts & Rimini!! Yes food and wine and very friendly people.

Yes when it come to filtration I feel as though I am talking to the rear bumper of the car quite frankly !
Only discussing this recent Jeep/OM 642 engine failure the other day with this used car dealer and showing him this useless cheap collapsed Korean oil filter, it was all lost in the emotion of an expensive repair going wrong. The repair cost will exceed the value of the beast!
As for air filters, I got a lecture by one Sprinter owner about the virtues of K&N air filters versus the OE paper filter . This specimen was swimming in oil in the air box--recently serviced by the owner. He was complaining no power !
I wonder if there is a saint of misguided auto repairs & maintenance in Italy.:lol:
Or
Maybe a sinners statue of St Jude in the shop! (Patron saint of Lost Causes)
"Santo patrono delle cause perse"!

In response to all this we just gave him the sign of the cross like you will see if you wander down into that town where you are this Sunday outside a church with the local catliks.:thumbup:

As for three cylinders !!
Well no matter what the config' or design or make etc there's nothing wrong with the sound of a three--almost musical.
Enjoy & Cheers (divertiti e saluti):thumbup:
Dennis

4wheeldog
09-23-2018, 01:56 PM
Ed
Well first you are making me envious, Italy and autumn.
Hmm!
Long distant misty memories as an 18 years old on the Triumph mostly in the northern parts & Rimini!! Yes food and wine and very friendly people.

Yes when it come to filtration I feel as though I am talking to the rear bumper of the car quite frankly !
Only discussing this recent Jeep/OM 642 engine failure the other day with this used car dealer and showing him this useless cheap collapsed Korean oil filter, it was all lost in the emotion of an expensive repair going wrong. The repair cost will exceed the value of the beast!
As for air filters, I got a lecture by one Sprinter owner about the virtues of K&N air filters versus the OE paper filter . This specimen was swimming in oil in the air box--recently serviced by the owner. He was complaining no power !
I wonder if there is a saint of misguided auto repairs & maintenance in Italy.:lol:
Or
Maybe a sinners statue of St Jude in the shop! (Patron saint of Lost Causes)
"Santo patrono delle cause perse"!

In response to all this we just gave him the sign of the cross like you will see if you wander down into that town where you are this Sunday outside a church with the local catliks.:thumbup:

As for three cylinders !!
Well no matter what the config' or design or make etc there's nothing wrong with the sound of a three--almost musical.
Enjoy & Cheers (divertiti e saluti):thumbup:
Dennis
I read an article years ago by a guy that spent a lot of time testing both oil and air filters.
One thing he discovered was that different vehicle manufacturers had varying theories/philosophies concerning filtration.
His example was Toyota, who supplied extremely tight air filters, but oil filters that were better than rock stoppers, but not a lot better. Apparently, their corporate philosophy (At the time, anyway) was that if it didn't get past the air filter, it couldn't show up in the oil.
My reaction was to keep buying Toyota OEM air filters, but I went to Wix oil filters, which did better in the testing than Toyota's OEMs.
Oh, and K&N filters barely stop boulders, and should only be used on desert racers that get rebuilt after every race. Just sayin'.