Advice on brakes, wheel bearings: 2006 T1N 3500

Guys. I'm down to the final lap on fixing up my 2006 Sprinter 3500 (Itasca Navion 23J motorhome) to take to South America. I have the steel, 16" wheels with dual rears.

I'm taking it in to look at rotors, calipers and pads. The use in South America is extreme, due to extremely mountainous climbs and especially deserts. A buddy of mine in a with a vehicle exactly like mine said he may have ruined his brakes yesterday, descening 10,000 over about 10 miles in Guatemala. He said his IR gun measured 750 degree F and that he boiled his fluid.

Anyhow, I want to do a scope of work and select the best products, and will likely be replacing some parts that are maybe 60% work out, just to be sure I'm good for this trip.

I'm planning to get parts from Europarts San Diego; rotors and calipers if needed. I'll check the hoses also. But, what are the best pads to get: semi-metallic or ceramic? As a rule, I won't be in cold weather that much. I'm mostly concerned about the long, grinding down hill descents and over heating.

Also, does the T1N have serviceable wheel bearings?

I'm having the steering assembly and drive train looked over carefully, while on jacks, the engine mounts, exhaust mounts, etc. I've serviced the diffy, replaced struts, shocks and other items.

So, mostly looking at semi-metallic vs. ceramic pads, and what else to look at while the wheels are off, like whether there are bearings to service. The cost difference isnt' important to me; just want whichever is best. My Sprinter is loaded to GVWR at 10,200, so it's hauling a load.

Thoughts?

Thanks so much!
 

220629

Well-known member
The wheel bearings are all replaceable on a T1N. The front bearings and seals are very conventional/typical. There is a difference in design between the rear bearings 2500 single wheel vs 3500 dual wheel. I believe that the 3500 rear bearings are a bit easier to change as compared to the 2500. Consult the service manual. You should find the additional tips in Write-ups.

I can't answer your brake selection questions. Europarts SD sells good quality parts and may have some advice. As noted, they do offer a more expensive brake pad option. Some here would recommend that you use only MB packaged parts from a dealership. I've had good service from Europarts SD offerings.

vic
 
The wheel bearings are all replaceable on a T1N. The front bearings and seals are very conventional/typical. There is a difference in design between the rear bearings 2500 single wheel vs 3500 dual wheel. I believe that the 3500 rear bearings are a bit easier to change as compared to the 2500. Consult the service manual. You should find the additional tips in Write-ups.

I can't answer your brake selection questions. Europarts SD sells good quality parts and may have some advice. As noted, they do offer a more expensive brake pad option. Some here would recommend that you use only MB packaged parts from a dealership. I've had good service from Europarts SD offerings.

vic
Thanks. I know nothing about bearings. Do they have a typical useful lifespan? I'm at 75,000 miles and will be at 110,000 before the end of this trip.
 

220629

Well-known member
Thanks. I know nothing about bearings. Do they have a typical useful lifespan? I'm at 75,000 miles and will be at 110,000 before the end of this trip.
My opinion. To pick a number out of the air. Up to 150,000 miles shouldn't be a problem.

On my vans/trailers I generally inspect/repack bearings at around 5 years. Given 15 - 20K per year service that works to about 75 - 100K mile interval. At around 225,000 miles inspection my 2004 front outer bearings (smaller) showed a "shadow pattern" which I didn't like. The bearings were still serviceable (not made in Germany). The inners (larger size - Made in Germany) looked great. I changed the outer bearings (so those are now also Made in Germany) and seals only. Now over 322,000 ... now 329,000 miles on the original inners.

I had a rear axle seal leak. I changed the bearing and seal on that leaking side only. The opposite side bearing is OEM same 322K... now 329K miles as inner fronts.

Based upon electric motor repair histories, and other equipment, I personally have little confidence in many of the "made everywhere in the world" bearings. My mode is to inspect in service bearings and keep the devil I know as long as all looks/sounds good.

YMMV.

:2cents: vic

Added:
Ciprian has over 770,000 miles on a 2005. I don't recall him mentioning wheel bearing changes, but maybe it just never came up as a topic.
 
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Midwestdrifter

Engineer In Residence
Bearings on the front are durable. They will make noise and have play for many tens of thousands of miles before failure. If you are concerned the they can be cleaned and repacked with a fresh seal easily. Use a moly grease of good quality.

The rears are also durable. At your mileage I would not be concerned unless the vehicle was overloaded or abused. The seals on the rear can leak. The pan gasket included. I would consider carrying a set of spare seals in case you need to fix a leak on the road. A spare set of bearings (one side) front and rear are not very large, and may be worthwhile given the crap roads you will experience.


Brakes are tough one. First off, your friends experience probably did not destroy his brakes. The pads and rotors are good to well over 900F. They will produce less force, but still do their job. The problem he experienced is heat soak of the calipers. After an extended period at low speeds with the hot pads and rotor radiating heat, the fluid in the caliper will boil. Old waterlogged fluid will boil much lower than fresh correct spec fluid. When the fluid boils, the brakes no long can maintain pressure, as the fluid is all displaced by the gas. Once the fluid cools they should return to normal. The pads may have some cracking, but they will likely not be destroyed.

If your fluid has not been changed in the last 2 years, get it replaced with fresh.


Ceramic pads will grip better when hot, but worse when cold. This means more pedal force needed during most breaking. Ceramic pads will provide some benefit in fast/rapid high speed stops. They will not prevent the heat soak and boiling fluid.


The best solution to preventing fade and or boiled fluid is to slow down. Don't descend faster than you can ascend for long periods. Stop and let the brakes cool on long descents. If you are unsure of how quickly your brakes heat up, get out your IR thermometer (one with a laser is nice) and check the wheels, rotors, and calipers. Ideally your want your sustained braking temps to stay under 650F. The hubs should stay under 350F sustained (to avoid grease flow issues).


If you really need the extra margin, there are water misting/spray systems available. They mount to the caliper, and spray a water mist on the rotor to cool it rapidly. A garden sprayer/mister nozzle could be mounted to the A arm, or strut. Aimed roughly at the rotor it would provide lots of cooling in a hurry.

Given the weight of your vehicle, you might consider carrying a spare set of pads. If your rotors are not 90% of new thickness, I would replace them as well. More mass is better, and carrying a spare set of rotors is heavy.
 
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Bearings on the front are durable. They will make noise and have play for many tens of thousands of miles before failure. If you are concerned the they can be cleaned and repacked with a fresh seal easily. Use a moly grease of good quality.

The rears are also durable. At your mileage I would not be concerned unless the vehicle was overloaded or abused. The seals on the rear can leak. The pan gasket included. I would consider carrying a set of spare seals in case you need to fix a leak on the road. A spare set of bearings (one side) front and rear are not very large, and may be worthwhile given the crap roads you will experience.


Brakes are tough one. First off, your friends experience probably did not destroy his brakes. The pads and rotors are good to well over 900F. They will produce less force, but still do their job. The problem he experienced is heat soak of the calipers. After an extended period at low speeds with the hot pads and rotor radiating heat, the fluid in the caliper will boil. Old waterlogged fluid will boil much lower than fresh correct spec fluid. When the fluid boils, the brakes no long can maintain pressure, as the fluid is all displaced by the gas. Once the fluid cools they should return to normal. The pads may have some cracking, but they will likely not be destroyed.

If your fluid has not been changed in the last 2 years, get it replaced with fresh.


Ceramic pads will grip better when hot, but worse when cold. This means more pedal force needed during most breaking. Ceramic pads will provide some benefit in fast/rapid high speed stops. They will not prevent the heat soak and boiling fluid.


The best solution to preventing fade and or boiled fluid is to slow down. Don't descend faster than you can ascend for long periods. Stop and let the brakes cool on long descents. If you are unsure of how quickly your brakes heat up, get out your IR thermometer (one with a laser is nice) and check the wheels, rotors, and calipers. Ideally your want your sustained braking temps to stay under 650F. The hubs should stay under 350F sustained (to avoid grease flow issues).


If you really need the extra margin, there are water misting/spray systems available. They mount to the caliper, and spray a water mist on the rotor to cool it rapidly. A garden sprayer/mister nozzle could be mounted to the A arm, or strut. Aimed roughly at the rotor it would provide lots of cooling in a hurry.

Given the weight of your vehicle, you might consider carrying a spare set of pads. If your rotors are not 90% of new thickness, I would replace them as well. More mass is better, and carrying a spare set of rotors is heavy.
Thanks Midwestdrifter! I just realized that I'd been reading you all's blog on the build. Awesome work. My grad education is in finance, so I'm good with figures and technical information, but am the kind'a guy who has bought cars for years without looking under the hood. I got this sprinter so I could burn the older diesel and MAN, what a learning curve; but the content is interesting.


Winnebago (US RV manufacturer) stuck a huge fiberglass rear end on these 3500 and the logic of the transmission is dysfunctional, resulting in a high failure rate due to the torque converter overheating and taking out the 722.6 transmission when it melts down. I put a 67,000 BTU per hour Derale 13870 tranny oil cooler on that works well, so we'll see.

Anyhow, my vehicle was abused, due to overloading and towing another vehicle, which resulted in a $4,700 bill at a Mercedez dealer for a MB reman transmission, paid for by the fellow I bought it from. So my $1,300 "all in" for my oil cooler, will hopefully keep this reman 722.6 in one piece. So far, that cooler is doing a great job! Around Florida, I have to try to even get the fan to come on!


SCOPE: I'm gonna replace the bearings, seals, rotors, calipers and use semi-metallic pads all around, with the best Nappa parts available, then replace the fluid with the best Dot4 Plus (MB spec), I can find, with a boiling point north of 500F. From all I can tell, the semi-metallic pads, although cheaper, throw off rotor heat more efficiently.

I'm getting the best Napa can provide. I'm lead to believe that Napa's Fleet/ Commercial grade parts, or Napa's Ultra Premium at the least if a particular Fleet part might not fit my vehicle, is the way to go. I figure with Napa's distribution channels into South America and/or Mexico, to whatever extent those exist, that building this relationship with Napa could be useful, should getting parts become an issue in South America.


I had the diffy serviced. I have a 3 part drive shaft and those linkages are being evaluated, with no stress load on them, at a shop now. I'm scanning the service manual (all 1,500 pages) in my spare time. I've bought a number of tools, including the IR temp gun you mentioned, so thanks for that. I think I have all the tools to fully service the various systems, but don't have the weight capacity to carry much in terms of fluids, so I'll buy fluids as needed.


I did a bunch of mechanical stuff, like anything rubber, battery, pulleys, tensioners, thermostat, cleaned the ERG valve, replaced the viscous clutch and fan, dampener pully and main seal, and added the aluminum resonator, and other misc items that have been identified as problems for these older vehicles. I bought a bunch of parts/supplies from Europarts in San Diego take along, which has been really helpful.


Hopefully, the old girl doesn't fly apart on me.


John
 

OldWest

2004 T1N Westfalia
Check with Steve at Europarts-SD.com whether he can ship parts to you in an emergency on your trip.

Also, for dealer only type parts, check with Dennis at LindenEngineering as to whether he can help you troubleshoot during your trip and ship parts to you. I think there were several times folks were stranded in other Americas and Dennis rescued them by sending them parts.

Worst case scenario, I think I read a blog for some folks travelling who had to fly back to USA to get the right parts and then fly back to their campervan. Think it was a VW Camper which you'd think would have lots parts available.

As to brake fluid change, make sure someone has the special computer to activate the ABS module extreme service so fluid is changed out from the ABS module.

As to other things done, hopefully you or other folks did correctly. For example, on the harmonic balancer, LindenEngineering has had to redo other folks' replacements because of improperly installed cone washer, failure to turn/tighten bolt 90 degrees? After torque reached, etc. Weird things.

Also, don't forget LindenEngineering's cautions re replacing coolant level sensor and tapping the U-Bolts around rear axle springs.

MillionMileSprinter.com put together an emergency kit of various sensors, etc. Hopefully, there's a place to figure out which sensor needs to be replaced (Code Reader Number?) and how to do.

Don't know if it were MidWestDrifter or someone else, but they installed a tow kit at the front of their Sprinter. While the tow kit is designed to tow a vehicle behind another vehicle, they installed as an emergency tow addition in case of a breakdown and no big flatbed lowboy tow truck (still need to disconnect the driveshaft). Might not be available for your size Sprinter.
 
Check with Steve at Europarts-SD.com whether he can ship parts to you in an emergency on your trip.

Also, for dealer only type parts, check with Dennis at LindenEngineering as to whether he can help you troubleshoot during your trip and ship parts to you. I think there were several times folks were stranded in other Americas and Dennis rescued them by sending them parts.

Worst case scenario, I think I read a blog for some folks travelling who had to fly back to USA to get the right parts and then fly back to their campervan. Think it was a VW Camper which you'd think would have lots parts available.

As to brake fluid change, make sure someone has the special computer to activate the ABS module extreme service so fluid is changed out from the ABS module.

As to other things done, hopefully you or other folks did correctly. For example, on the harmonic balancer, LindenEngineering has had to redo other folks' replacements because of improperly installed cone washer, failure to turn/tighten bolt 90 degrees? After torque reached, etc. Weird things.

Also, don't forget LindenEngineering's cautions re replacing coolant level sensor and tapping the U-Bolts around rear axle springs.

MillionMileSprinter.com put together an emergency kit of various sensors, etc. Hopefully, there's a place to figure out which sensor needs to be replaced (Code Reader Number?) and how to do.

Don't know if it were MidWestDrifter or someone else, but they installed a tow kit at the front of their Sprinter. While the tow kit is designed to tow a vehicle behind another vehicle, they installed as an emergency tow addition in case of a breakdown and no big flatbed lowboy tow truck (still need to disconnect the driveshaft). Might not be available for your size Sprinter.
Great resources and advice. Thanks so much.

On the main seal. My mechanic only does older Mercedez Benz vehicles. He said some folks don't have, or want to wait, for a specialized tool necessary to install the seal (seat it properly). Plus, he did use the correct torque. I'd never seen a 6' long wrench, with LED: it's was interesting to watch.

I'm going to ask about the brake fluid being changed in the ABS. As you know, most folks don't know about this detailed, specific MB stuff on these old sprinters. Without sounding too cynical, my brief experience with mechanics/ service providers on this older T1N that say they can do the work, is that worse than not knowing, they don't really seem to care that their work product is erroneous. I've never had an old vehicle, so I'm not accustomed to the mentality. Frankly, the level of professionalism (if applicable to auto mechanic garages) is appalling to me. In a one case, I experienced an event far beyond bad service; it was gross negligence, but that experience taught me a lot, so the world re-balanced. LOL

I'm a general contractor/ real estate developer that's directed hundreds of millions of expense over 35 years. I'm not naïve, I hope. I'm just surprised that the market dynamics are such that vendors can sell such crap and evidently do well. It certainly explains why those that are really conscientious mechanics are so backed up with work.
 
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If you really need the extra margin, there are water misting/spray systems available. They mount to the caliper, and spray a water mist on the rotor to cool it rapidly. A garden sprayer/mister nozzle could be mounted to the A arm, or strut. Aimed roughly at the rotor it would provide lots of cooling in a hurry.
https://www.facebook.com/groups/panamtravelers/permalink/1825160084189482/

This fellow above who just posted in FB has the same vehicle as I do: 2006 Itaska Navion 23J on Sprinter 3500. I removed a number of things, like AC, convection/microwave, cab over bed, etc. to get my weight down, but I'll still be at GVWR 10,200. I included the specs on my brake rebuilt above and will use the best fluid I can find.

I planned to use the semi-metallic pads due to better heat dissipation from the rotor, but generally find the information confusing. I'll take a second set of pads as spares.

Do you have a recommendation on these water mist systems? I'm still in Florida and can install one, while I can, if this will help. I failed to realize the magnitude of this brake issue when selecting the small class c motorhome, but I'm pregnant now, so I have to do the best that I can.
 
Hi guys
Can some one point me towards any "front tow kit" discussion ? Cant get it on a search.
Thanks
Wayne Poulsen
Fremantle
West Australia
 

Midwestdrifter

Engineer In Residence
Hi guys
Can some one point me towards any "front tow kit" discussion ? Cant get it on a search.
Thanks
Wayne Poulsen
Fremantle
West Australia
What do you mean by front tow kit? A brake upgrade for the fronts?

https://www.facebook.com/groups/panamtravelers/permalink/1825160084189482/

This fellow above who just posted in FB has the same vehicle as I do: 2006 Itaska Navion 23J on Sprinter 3500. I removed a number of things, like AC, convection/microwave, cab over bed, etc. to get my weight down, but I'll still be at GVWR 10,200. I included the specs on my brake rebuilt above and will use the best fluid I can find.

I planned to use the semi-metallic pads due to better heat dissipation from the rotor, but generally find the information confusing. I'll take a second set of pads as spares.

Do you have a recommendation on these water mist systems? I'm still in Florida and can install one, while I can, if this will help. I failed to realize the magnitude of this brake issue when selecting the small class c motorhome, but I'm pregnant now, so I have to do the best that I can.
I have never used a water misting system, but I am sure someone makes one. Otherwise you can rig something up yourself, a basic water pump and some misting nozzles are cheap.


Personally I think you are freaking out unnecessarily. Big rigs have been dealing with the kind of troubles you are discussing since their inception. They just go slower! You have total control over your brakes and vehicle, just drive within its limits.

Find a long pass somewhere, ideally a few minutes minimum of constant climbing. Drive up it at 80-100% engine output. Record the time it takes to climb the pass, and how much elevation you gain. Use this to determine your average rate of climb in feet per minute.

This figure ft/min is your max sustained descent rate. Get a Garmin GPS (you will want one for the Open Street Maps). Add the elevation gauge to the map screen. Now you can roughly monitor descent rate. Once you drive a few passes while watching the elevation, you will get a feel for how fast you can drive on various grades. During this learning period, stop on occasion and hit your brakes with a IR thermometer to get a baseline (also good to make sure none of the wheels are much hotter). After doing this a few times, you will learn the limits of your vehicle without having to push up against them.

My van can weight 200lbs over gross (8,500lbs) maybe a bit more. I can easily overheat the brakes if I drive down steep winding roads at high speeds. I was on a sustained 20% grade a few months ago. about 3,000 vertical feet of 15-20% grade. I could have safely driven at about 25mph, but at that speed I may have overheated my brakes before the end, even with engine braking at 3k rpm. So I dropped my speed to 15mph, and stopped once for 5 minutes to check and cool the brakes (they were fine, about 400F).

Interestingly, my ascent rate on this hill was about 15-20mph, which means my max ascent and descent rates roughly match.
 
Hi
My question arose from this post by OldWest ...
"Don't know if it were MidWestDrifter or someone else, but they installed a tow kit at the front of their Sprinter. While the tow kit is designed to tow a vehicle behind another vehicle, they installed as an emergency tow addition in case of a breakdown and no big flatbed lowboy tow truck (still need to disconnect the driveshaft). Might not be available for your size Sprinter."
Interested in this as an emergency tow option.
Wayne
Fremantle
West Australia
 

OldWest

2004 T1N Westfalia
Wayne:

Posted a bunch of links above. Blue Ox and Roadmaster seem to be popular manufacturers. Older T1Ns may only have Roadmaster as an option.

For folks in USA or other countries with less restrictive roo/bull bar requirements than Australia, one might use the two receiver tubes in front to insert a custom made Superbumper.com or other front-mounted rack.

Then carry the towing stuff as emergency stuff.

Here's a post by someone who has this setup for emergencies:

https://sprinter-source.com/forum/showpost.php?p=643280&postcount=14

https://sprinter-source.com/forum/showpost.php?p=638164&postcount=5
 
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What do you mean by front tow kit? A brake upgrade for the fronts?



I have never used a water misting system, but I am sure someone makes one. Otherwise you can rig something up yourself, a basic water pump and some misting nozzles are cheap.


Personally I think you are freaking out unnecessarily. Big rigs have been dealing with the kind of troubles you are discussing since their inception. They just go slower! You have total control over your brakes and vehicle, just drive within its limits.

Find a long pass somewhere, ideally a few minutes minimum of constant climbing. Drive up it at 80-100% engine output. Record the time it takes to climb the pass, and how much elevation you gain. Use this to determine your average rate of climb in feet per minute.

This figure ft/min is your max sustained descent rate. Get a Garmin GPS (you will want one for the Open Street Maps). Add the elevation gauge to the map screen. Now you can roughly monitor descent rate. Once you drive a few passes while watching the elevation, you will get a feel for how fast you can drive on various grades. During this learning period, stop on occasion and hit your brakes with a IR thermometer to get a baseline (also good to make sure none of the wheels are much hotter). After doing this a few times, you will learn the limits of your vehicle without having to push up against them.

My van can weight 200lbs over gross (8,500lbs) maybe a bit more. I can easily overheat the brakes if I drive down steep winding roads at high speeds. I was on a sustained 20% grade a few months ago. about 3,000 vertical feet of 15-20% grade. I could have safely driven at about 25mph, but at that speed I may have overheated my brakes before the end, even with engine braking at 3k rpm. So I dropped my speed to 15mph, and stopped once for 5 minutes to check and cool the brakes (they were fine, about 400F).

Interestingly, my ascent rate on this hill was about 15-20mph, which means my max ascent and descent rates roughly match.
Great info. Sounds like the engine braking capacity is the control. I just go this vehicle and live in Florida, so I really don't have the experience driving it yet. I did buy a Garmin 770 RV unit, so I'll get the Open Street Maps downloaded and experiment with that methodology.

There are some manufacturers that sell rotors that have been groolved and drilled. This is the upgrade I'm thinking about, since I'm rebuilding the brakes anyway. I haven't made any selections, but this will give you an idea: https://www.sprinterstore.com/product/sprinter-power-brake/

If my messages are conveying urgency, it's just to get this parts order completed, so I can move onto completing the solar system. I can always drive the lower elevation topography closer to the coast, but I'd like to stay in the mountains on this trip, because I removed the AC and Onan generator (replaced with Honda 2000) on this rig to save weight and because AC power isn't available, so traveling though at higher elevations is about comfort. Heat can be brutal down by the coasts.

Thanks again for your help. It is appreciated.
 
If you need assistance on the solar/inverter installation, John Palmer at http://palmerenergysystems.com/

Is reputable and inexpensive. He's in northern Florida, so convenient to you. Recommended by Meyer and Mac the FireDude.

https://sprinter-source.com/forum/showpost.php?p=631340&postcount=8

https://sprinter-source.com/forum/showpost.php?p=632313&postcount=13

Oh yes, I'm heading up to see that old porch hound in a few days. John installed about $15k worth of solar onto my 37' Carri Lite fifth wheel rig a couple years ago. He's an acquired taste personally, but really knows his stuff. Thanks for the referral. I'd recommend John Palmer to anyone myself. It's always a good idea to Palmerize!
 
Don't buy grooved or drilled rotors. They don't cool any better, and have more failure modes.

Thanks Midwestdrifter. Steve at Europarts SD has Meyle rotors, so I get them. I think I'll go with semi-metallic on the pads, due to the heavy load. I'm surprised after reading and surveying folks on ceramic vs. semi-metallic how nearly split the opinions are, but semi-metallic seems to edge out ceramic due to my vehicle being over 10,000 pounds.

I have a 37' fifth wheel with hydraulic brakes. I've helped an experienced mechanic drain and bleed the lines, so I have the tools and knowledge to do that. I'll get my mechanic to drain and replace my fluid and take my tools and spare fluid, so I can replace it around 15,000 miles. I think I'll go with Castrol SRF that boils wet/dry at 518/608 F it seems. It meets MB specs, except for the viscosity. Some of the fluids meeting MB 331.0 seem to boil wet under 400F. I'll read some more on this, but it seems the higher wet point would help.
 

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