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Mowen632
05-09-2018, 08:20 PM
Got a check engine light today accelerate from a stop light. The van seemed to hesitate a little bit. It was accompanied by codes 2016 and 2511. After clearing the codes and taking it for a short drive 2197 has returned but the others have not.

Any idea on where to start on troubleshooting this? I'm new to sprinters

grumpy-old-van
05-09-2018, 10:07 PM
P2197 o2 Sensor Signal Biased/Stuck Lean
thats a generic OBD interprtation, take it with a pinch of salt but should be 02
more than likely failed o2 sensor

Mowen632
05-09-2018, 11:32 PM
From what I read in the sprinter error coffee manual it was something more ominous like a ecm thermal overload

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Midwestdrifter
05-10-2018, 08:10 AM
What reader/tool did you use to get this code? It is probably accurate (we would need the subcode to be precise). Also, diesels are not always 100% OBDII compliant, so the code details for some systems don't match the generic definitions.

P2197 has two sub codes

2197 8 Fuel management valve (Y93) CDI [ECM] control unit (A94) thermal overload
2197 4 Fuel management valve (Y93) Open circuit

The other codes

2016 1 Rail pressure monitoring. Fuel flow was below the specified minimum quantity.

2511 1 Exhaust gas recirculation positloner Short circuit to ground(-) (Y85)
2511 2 Exhaust gas recirculation positioner Short circuit to ground(-)

Based on your other codes you have a harness problem common to the EGR and fuel management valve. I am not sure if the fuel management valve is the rail solenoid, or the fuel pump quantity valve. Loof for Y93 in the wiring diagrams. The thermal overload reference (if that is the subcode) means that the fuel management valve control line is drawing too much current, so the ECM has stopped supplying ground/power to it. The ECM is internally protected against most short circuit situations. These Bosch ECMs are very robust.

SneakyAnarchistVanCamper
05-10-2018, 11:14 PM
Great info MWD. I'd check where the harness passes thru the firewall, for very slightly damaged wires from rubbing on an edge. Then I think they go behind the fuel filter (check here for damage with a flashlight) and then up onto the engine. The wires can also short out by rubbing on the engine from vibration.

Mowen632
05-10-2018, 11:23 PM
What reader/tool did you use to get this code? It is probably accurate (we would need the subcode to be precise). Also, diesels are not always 100% OBDII compliant, so the code details for some systems don't match the generic definitions.

P2197 has two sub codes

2197 8 Fuel management valve (Y93) CDI [ECM] control unit (A94) thermal overload
2197 4 Fuel management valve (Y93) Open circuit

The other codes

2016 1 Rail pressure monitoring. Fuel flow was below the specified minimum quantity.

2511 1 Exhaust gas recirculation positloner Short circuit to ground(-) (Y85)
2511 2 Exhaust gas recirculation positioner Short circuit to ground(-)

Based on your other codes you have a harness problem common to the EGR and fuel management valve. I am not sure if the fuel management valve is the rail solenoid, or the fuel pump quantity valve. Loof for Y93 in the wiring diagrams. The thermal overload reference (if that is the subcode) means that the fuel management valve control line is drawing too much current, so the ECM has stopped supplying ground/power to it. The ECM is internally protected against most short circuit situations. These Bosch ECMs are very robust.I'll do some further investigation under the hood for wiring. Thank you for the info.

I used a carsoft mb2 to pull the codes. I don't see a subcide attached to the dtc though

Anyone know how safe it is to drive the van in this condition?

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grumpy-old-van
05-11-2018, 12:29 PM
If you have arcing near your fuel line maybe not such a great idea..
If you live for excitement maybe...

Mowen632
05-11-2018, 02:37 PM
Haha fair enough. If you have arcing near your fuel line maybe not such a great idea..
If you live for excitement maybe...
I am looking at the engine bay and the big trunkline of wires that I believe is coming from the ECU appears to be in good shape in it's mesh sheathing except for one area that is ziptied together fairly well. This occurs where it passes over the intake manifold. Inside the cab where it passes through the firewall everything is wrapped pretty well and there is not much play to move them around to search for issues. I've wiggled and pulled without much movement.

I've felt up and down the wires to see if there is anything that I can feel on the backside and nothing is jumping out at me.

Looks like most of the wires split off after they reach the head to individual sensors. I found some bare wire on one sensor at the front if the fuel rail looks like this might be a fuel pressure sensor? Will continue to check other end connections for damagehttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180511/ba564b319c718877144f9925626a231b.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180511/440f1c61a8ce958a31c8702dae0b3981.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180511/00c9bbff1adbe4ef1a2198f700caee7d.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180511/983e4424ac73f9d3ea3056030c74ed13.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180511/31abba28d37ef541fc571f7918607070.jpg

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Mowen632
05-11-2018, 03:17 PM
Also maybe found some cracking or potentially a slice where these zipties were cut off previously. Looks to effect a brown with white wire and a black with red wire mostly. I'll cut off the zip ties and inspect further

After cutting them off I found one wire that is significantly worn through. It is on a green/black running in a twisted tripple with green white and green brown

Any tips on correcting this? I was going to wrap damaged wires individually in electrical tape and then tape this whole bundle before zip tieing them back together. Not sure how to handle the bare wires at the sensor as the location would be very difficult to tape uphttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180511/5eac9fd0dde4cf0d467b52002ebb492e.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180511/641a6cb5309ceaec914840f109aa223c.jpg

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Mowen632
05-11-2018, 08:41 PM
I patched everything that I could. Took it on a quick test drove and thought I had fixed it. After clearing the code the light stayed off but immediately returned after restarting the van.

After looking at it further the code is in the fault memory even after clearing it and with the light off. Not sure why the light remains off even though it's showing a fault. Only seems to initiate the dash light on the next start

Any other ideas on places to check?



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Midwestdrifter
05-11-2018, 08:49 PM
The code will return immediately if the problem has not been fixed. The ECU is powered on when reading codes, so it is doing the regular checks. If it comes back immediately, I would suspect a broken wire.

You need to find the wires for the valve (Y93), check the wiring diagrams. Then identify them in the harness and trace them as far as possible. The harness is pretty rough, and may have had previous repairs (or hacks). If no obvious damage shows up, you should unplug the ECM main harness under the dash, and check the wires for opens or shorts to ground etc with a multimeter.

The damaged plug on the front of the rail is the fuel pressure sensor I believe, and is probably not related to the codes. For peace of mind I would use liquid electrical tape to seal the damaged areas, and put a single wrap of outdoor rated electrical wrap of the area once it has dried.

The issue itself may be the valve has failed due to a wiring fault burning it out or similar.

A quick search seems to indicate that the fuel management valve is the high pressure pump element shut-off valve. It is mounted to the side of the HP pump. Wires are Brown/yellow and red/black. I am not sure if this is the right "valve" though. As the Y93 reference is not in the service manual (it is probably used with the Star diagnostic system).

Mowen632
05-12-2018, 02:50 PM
I pulled the engine side of the ECU to check the pin outs. I get open loops on every pin. I'm not sure if I'm doing something wrong when I'm testing it but I feel like at least some of the sensors should show a resistance. I'm definitely making contact with the connectors with the lead on the multi meter

Any suggestions on what I could be doing wrong?

I'm using the gas pedal mounting bolts as the ground. I tested it against the door mounting bolts and got continuity so it should be good.

Are any of these switched that I would need to have the ignition on? I thought that would likely introduce voltage to some pics which would effect continuity measurementshttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180512/cdaa067595073a96ed242658b274c8f6.jpg

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autostaretx
05-12-2018, 03:49 PM
The full 2006 service manual (with wiring diagrams as section 8W) is here: http://diysprinter.co.uk/reference/2006-VA-SM.pdf

The connector pin-out section lists wire colors, as do all of the diagrams. You can use Adobe's Search to locate known (BR/WH) combos.

Many of the sensors are active devices: the ECU feeds them regulated 5v or 12v and also supplies the negative return. The "signal" comes down a third wire. At http://diysprinter.co.uk/reference/ the "scanned" sub-folder has training manual pages which includes the various expected waveforms, plus a "common mode" section that shows what pin on the ECU feeds power to which sensors.

97098

--dick

Mowen632
05-12-2018, 04:07 PM
The full 2006 service manual (with wiring diagrams as section 8W) is here: http://diysprinter.co.uk/reference/2006-VA-SM.pdf

The connector pin-out section lists wire colors, as do all of the diagrams. You can use Adobe's Search to locate known (BR/WH) combos.

Many of the sensors are active devices: the ECU feeds them regulated 5v or 12v and also supplies the negative return. The "signal" comes down a third wire. At http://diysprinter.co.uk/reference/ the "scanned" sub-folder has training manual pages which includes the various expected waveforms, plus a "common mode" section that shows what pin on the ECU feeds power to which sensors.

97098

--dickSo the open circuit or short could be back to the ground side of the ECU and not to the vehicle ground. That would explain why everything was an open loop.

I've reviewed some of the wiring diagrams but have been unable to find the "fuel management valve" there is a fuel quantity valve which sounds similar but I'm not sure.

Would I test between pin 76 and pin 28 to test that valve? How does the numbers on the OBD and the except OBD play into it. Are these pin locations for the wires?

Edit: I get 3 ohms across 28 and 76. I looked at the diagram you sent I'm more detail and the 12v supply is listed at pin 28 which confirms that but the ground is not shown.

How do I know what is the expected resistance of certain circuits?

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Edit - I get three ohms across 28 and 76

autostaretx
05-12-2018, 08:48 PM
Let's go back to square one: the P2197 code.
Now, it *could* be from the wire damage, if *could* be a sick sensor, or it *could* be a problems with the valve.
Back at http://diysprinter.co.uk/reference/ you'll find the 2006 Powertrain diagnostics manual, indexed (somewhat) by P-code.
P2197 starts on page 177. (i'd provide a direct link, but the site is offline at the moment)

We'll also reference the "fuel delivery" chapter in the service manual (section 14, page 7 to be exact (at the moment))
There it clarifies that it's the Fuel Quantity Solenoid they're looking at, which is mounted on the high pressure pump (HPP).
One end of the fuel rail has the fuel pressure sensor, the other end has the fuel pressure solenoid, which releases fuel to go back to the tank.
(from your photo, i can't tell if you're showing the sensor or the solenoid)
The HPP also carries the fuel temperature sensor. (see fig 1 "fuel supply" in the service manual, pg 14-7 )

So now we know that we're chasing down the "Fuel Quantity Solenoid" (or Fuel Quantity Control Valve) and "fuel pressure solenoid", along with the "fuel pressure sensor" in the wiring diagrams.
So we go to page 8w-02-1 which is the component index. That points to 8w-30
From 8w-30's own index, we see:
Fuel Pressure Sensor . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 8W-30-5
Fuel Pressure Solenoid . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 8W-30-7
Fuel Quantity Control Valve . . . . . . . . . . . 8W-30-7
Fuel Shutdown Solenoid . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 8W-30-7
Fuel Temperature Sensor . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 8W-30-5

From which (like your posting) we see:

97103

NOW ... we go back to http://diysprinter.co.uk/reference/ and drop into the "scanned service documents" sub-folder.
(as i'm writing this, that site seems to be off-line). In there there's a zip file of all of the pages, as well as the pages as individual scans.
We want the ones involving the Fuel Rail and fuel delivery. Of particular interest are 079FuelRailPressSens, 080 and 081.
They include a kind'a schematic of the sensor itself, and its output curve:

97104

97105

--dick (who has been called away from the screen...)

autostaretx
05-13-2018, 03:15 AM
What YEAR is your Sprinter? (the engines differ before/after 2003)

Anyhoo... there are service manuals which DO go into measuring ohms on the ECU feeds if it's appropriate.
They're part of the Service Manual CD (if bought from the dealer).
Since the http://diysprinter.co.uk/reference/ site is offline today, i'll just post the 2006 versions here:

97121

97122

97123

97124

I'd start with the Powertrain manual, and then proceed to the others as needed (Brakes are in the Chassis manual, for example)

--dick

autostaretx
05-13-2018, 03:27 AM
I apologize for the delay in answering these questions... i've been distracted by other things today...


Would I test between pin 76 and pin 28 to test that valve?
Yes. (see below)
How does the numbers on the OBD and the except OBD play into it. Are these pin locations for the wires?
If it's a US Sprinter, it's an OBD Sprinter. Much of the Rest of the World doesn't/didn't have the OBD (On Board Diagnostics (for emission testing)) circuitry/modifications.

Edit: I get 3 ohms across 28 and 76. I looked at the diagram you sent I'm more detail and the 12v supply is listed at pin 28 which confirms that but the ground is not shown.

The three valves are all solenoids: electromagnets. So they should all show *some* relatively low (less than 200 ohms, more than ???). If you're seeing "infinite" ohms (open circuit), suspect solenoid coil damage (??all of them??) or a damaged wire harness.

Three ohms is suspicious: what does your Ohmmeter say when you just touch its own probes together (which should be zero). Many cheap ohmmeters are off by quite a bit (my "free" Harbor Freight one is saying 7.8 ohms when the leads are touched or pressed hard on conductive metal)

3 ohms at 12v operating voltage would draw 4 amps.
I don't know if the valves expect 12v or lesser levels. The Training manual pages may say.
(i'll see if i can find it)

How do I know what is the expected resistance of certain circuits?
Training manual or experience (which is why i don't know them... ain't read that section yet, haven't got that particular experience)

... i'll look in the scanned pages
--dick

autostaretx
05-13-2018, 03:34 AM
The fuel pressure solenoid only draws 600 milliamps ... if it's 12v that means about 25 ohms.

97125

97126

97127

97128

.. but that's not the Fuel Quantity Valve...

--dick (still digging)

autostaretx
05-13-2018, 03:37 AM
Waveforms, including the Quanity solenoid...

97129

97130

97131


These pages were all scanned by Vic/AquaPuttana, but unfortunately he didn't do the *entire* manual set. Thus some pages are missing.

The traces show that all three solenoids/valves are operating at 12 volts. Very very quickly...
(2 millisecond pulses)

--dick