2006 3500 blowing black coal badly Help..

FLYNRYAN

New member
what I done so far: still have bad black coal and stumbles when giving it gas, This thing ran good but black death that was unreal the last 2003 black death came out fine...
black death fixed
new valve cover and gasket
new tensioner - not really any spring tension
2 new ideler pullys -one had no sides
new harmonic balancer -broke
new used great condition wire harness-old on was destroyed at injector area ALSO DOUBLE CHECKED ALL PLUG ENDS.
new cabin air filter- none in there
new air filter-clogged full
cleaned air box
cleaned MAF-never seen one so dirty
took boot off from MAF to turbo cleaned out and all new hose clamp
cleaned front of turbo
pulled o2 sencor out cleaned and replaced
new fuel filter replaced fuel lines looked nasty
cleaned egr it wasn't bad and all worked with spring back
cleaned all sencors on on air box 2 on hose to intake.
Trany service
3 oil changes till it was clean
oil filter
5 new glow plugs
were a exhaust shop repair shop for over 30 years.
So i took off converters blew out good put back on, put new exhaust on it.
still have black smoke heavy black smoke...
5 new injectors do in Monday as well as new MAF and 3 sensors that i cleaned that way that's all covered.
if that don't work everything is cleaned or been out for someone with a DAD stem to look at the dealers here in ohio don't want to give you a time or day to scan it
anyone in ohio between Cleveland and Columbus have one our does some but not enough.
or anyone rent one for a few days would love to see whats going on scratching my head????
 
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MillionMileSprinter

Millionmilesprinter.com
Re: 2006 blowing black coal badly Help..

Injector 3 is the one in the middle. My guess is there's a wiring problem because you replaced #3 and it's still throwing the same error code. The injector knock is often a leaking injector causing pre-ignition, but you already replaced them. Are they original Bosch? There have been issues with people using cheap rebuilt ones.
Also, a sticking EGR valve can cause lots of black smoke.
 

FLYNRYAN

New member
Re: 2006 blowing black coal badly Help..

does anyone have a pic of the firing order, I thought 3 was 3 as well but all the 5cyl firing orders none show 3 as 3
finding 12453. but cant find a pic to show me MB firing order for the sprinter but we did change all except the 1st one.
 

lindenengineering

Well-known member
Re: 2006 blowing black coal badly Help..

Before doing all that--shenanigans CHECK!!!
Check???
You haven't cross connected the engine breather heater socket connector with the fuel HPOP qty valve!
These two sockets are the same save for the HPOP Qty valve socket which has a 45 degree sleeve on it and thicker #16 wires than the breather socket which use #18 wires & different colors/colours .Dennis
 

FLYNRYAN

New member
Re: 2006 blowing black coal badly Help..

just went threw everything one by one pulling everything out cleaning checking everything.
motor has a gallop to it give it gas and it has a studer, high end say 3k rpm it clears up.
only thing I see on autel scanner is glow plugs low circuit and com rail failer this is if dig deep to find.
no injector codes maybe it didn't clear yesterday cause it took a few times this am to clear it. but I did change around the injectors yesterday.
But still have a lot of blk/ coal flowing. not a bit a lot. yes I did look at wire ends all correct. thought they were I took my time and with one guy on top and my self under the rack we just went one by one. any thoughts.??
 

FLYNRYAN

New member
Re: 2006 blowing black coal badly Help..

what I done so far: still have bad black coal and stumbles when giving it gas, This thing ran good but black death that was unreal the last 2003 black death came out fine...
black death fixed
new valve cover and gasket
new tensioner - not really any spring tension
2 new ideler pullys -one had no sides
new harmonic balancer -broke
new used great condition wire harness-old on was destroyed at injector area ALSO DOUBLE CHECKED ALL PLUG ENDS.
new cabin air filter- none in there
new air filter-clogged full
cleaned air box
cleaned MAF-never seen one so dirty
took boot off from MAF to turbo cleaned out and all new hose clamp
cleaned front of turbo
pulled o2 sencor out cleaned and replaced
new fuel filter replaced fuel lines looked nasty
cleaned egr it wasn't bad and all worked with spring back
cleaned all sencors on on air box 2 on hose to intake.
Trany service
3 oil changes till it was clean
oil filter
5 new glow plugs
Injector cut out test- pull off and feel motor miss put back on feel it pick back up
Turbo actuator moves free up and down as you give it gas
Turbo boost hoses all swell up when you give it gas
were a exhaust shop repair shop for over 30 years.
So i took off converters blew out good put back on, put new exhaust on it.
still have black smoke heavy black smoke...
5 new injectors do in Monday as well as new MAF and 3 sensors that i cleaned that way that's all covered.
if that don't work everything is cleaned or been out for someone with a DAD stem to look at the dealers here in ohio don't want to give you a time or day to scan it
anyone in ohio between Cleveland and Columbus have one our does some but not enough.
or anyone rent one for a few days would love to see whats going on scratching my head????
 
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SneakyAnarchistVanCamper

Reading till my eyesbleed
It's good to do a test drive after each individual repair, in case things go wrong, so you know it was the last thing you worked on. I would do a manual cylinder cutout test by removing injector connectors 1 by 1. I see no mention of checking for boost leaks. Too little air can cause black smoke. Spray down intercooler and resonator (turbo muffler) with soapy water while revving, looking for bubbles. Check turbo actuator by unplugging maf and watching for full movement (visually and ideally with scanner too).
 

FLYNRYAN

New member
I did unplug 1 by 1 injector you hear and feel a cut out pug in and feel its better.
i looked at all the hoses some pulled off and looked at as well as cleaned others i looked at all clamping, as well as seen all hoses flex when reving
the actuator i watched it. was all the way up key off when running pulls down and moves up and down as i think it should when you giving gas feathering the pedal.
On this sprinter i don't see any type of vacuum going to it.?
what would the resonator do if leaking, I have replaced several mufflers on sprinters. Really did do the drive test injectors blk death and harness was so bad had to change it went smoothly had a pain on the injectors till i bought the puller thought we would be fine but problem was when started up this was the finding.
Thanks for the help thou. I will soap and water today
 

lindenengineering

Well-known member
Reading your post narrative so far-
What strikes me is no scan tool mention, no live data to help you pinpoint the problem, not even any fault codes if applicable.
Do you have any information like this to find the underlying fault(s)?
Scan tool info is essential to fixing these types of vans remember!!
Dennis
 

SneakyAnarchistVanCamper

Reading till my eyesbleed
I did unplug 1 by 1 injector you hear and feel a cut out pug in and feel its better.
But the black smoke did not go away when a certain injector was unplugged?

We're kinda shooting blind here without any codes or a scanner - maybe your local auto store will loan you one. By chance, is your air filter dirty as hell? Did you check if the black smoke disappeared when the maf was unplugged? It's good the turbo actuator is moving, but we don't know if it's moving fully/correctly until you use a scanner to view the % open.

"what would the resonator do if leaking"
It would starve the engine of boost, probably eventually put it in a limp mode disabling the turbo and limiting revs, and maybe cause black smoke. They leak oil and pressurized air from the top seam of the resonator usually.


One last odd possibility, maybe your catalytic converter or exhaust was damaged/stolen, reducing exhaust backpressure, interfering with the turbo.
 
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FLYNRYAN

New member
were a full blown shop and have something on our big rack so haven't checked today.
yes scan tool has been on
codes were glow plugs have to hook back up and check again
cr common rail fault.
in post I put pulled converters out cleaned and reinstalled not a leak in exhaust did check that this am before pulling out to get a semi on the rack
but wants you get decent pedal it has all the rpm you want but looks like a coal chimney.
will get back when on rack again today we have stuff that needs on my big rack. the boss got kicked out of the bay.
Thanks thou for the help well find it sooner or later.
 

FLYNRYAN

New member
Just a update for all of ya that's been helping , first of all thanks...
I didn't get to mess with today very much had to use the tall bay for semi work today. But did want to update where I'm at.
Yes I have been using a scanner but with out a DAD not lots of help.
Codes we have CR- common rail fault 4
1482- pre glow fault short circuit
2133,2134,2136 -glow plug is faulty or short circuit or open circuit. R17 R16 R14 ?
Pulled of on injector at a time you can tell they were disconnected when I did so, but pulled one off for about 1 min. Looked at black smoke ,then on yo the next there was a little clear up on injector 3 or the middle one. Not much but a bit checked it 3 times,
Yes I said above the air box when first got was unreal dirty but fully cleaned it all out new filter and New MAF sensor was installed at that time.
Checked exhaust not a tiny leak but we weld almost everything anyways but I did check.
I said above that I pulled converters off and cleaned them and reinstalled. All good there.
Live data I will check tomarrow again but if out of spec it turns red nothing was red 2 days ago.
Thing is I can't turn off like a injector etc with this scanner on a sprinter I can on others but we all know sprinters are tough to get in on these sprinters.
Did spray down every thing with water and dawn dish soap no bubbles .
Like I said had to pull it out of bay today all bays were full and this is in my Big truck bay. The boss got kicked out....
 

SneakyAnarchistVanCamper

Reading till my eyesbleed
I can't find any information on CR fault 4, but there is one picture of the fuel rail solenoid on mercedes gen in labled "Sprinter fuel pressure regulator fault 4."

Perhaps a rail solenoid leak test is in order? I would pay attention to this code.. Are you able to get snapshot info from the code? Can you graph fuel pressure and look for fluctuations with a steady throttle?

Rail solenoid test: https://sprinter-source.com/forum/showthread.php?t=27663

It's also listed in the manual. Leave the rail solenoid plugged in, unplug the cam sensor, install 3/8 vinyl hose on injector return lines so as not to blow the return lines out. Clamp all lines except for the one coming from the rail solenoid, look to see if it leaks. If it leaks anything, replace it. But I did not have *any* black smoke when I had this problem. I still suspect a faulty injector. It may be prudent to remove and bench test all injectors at a bosch facility - the consequences of continuing to run it for diagnosis with an injector leaking fuel at the tip are severe... piston could get a hole in it.
 
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AdrianD

Member
Are you sure there are no extra copper seals on any injector? When you have an extra seal on one or more injectors it blows black smoke even at idle.
 

FLYNRYAN

New member
AdrianD Yes there are in 3 of the 5 cylinders.
When i bought the van it has had black death prior and the seller told me that the only way they cold get it to seal was to double up the copper seals.
I have the good reseat tool from a long time ago when i redid that sprinter not one problem at all with that one. and did a few for people.
but this one i used my tool not the one he gave me looked like a cheapy. i tap the retainer hold down holes to clean out,put new retainers on and had to put 2 copper rings in front 3 holes to seal as they had. i have 5 new injectors do in Monday. seems like the retainer when tight will not seat so i had to double up to seal.
 

AdrianD

Member
Well, there we go...as far as I know unless you get the injectors to sit at the right depth, you won't get rid of the black smoke.
 

SneakyAnarchistVanCamper

Reading till my eyesbleed
Well, there we go...as far as I know unless you get the injectors to sit at the right depth, you won't get rid of the black smoke.
You've done the flying spaghetti monsters work, thank you for that nugget of info, I'll save it in my stash. I've never heard of that one before.


Edit: Op, it's either not sealing because the heads seal face or the injectors seal face is dirty or damaged, or you aren't following the torque sequence/spec. Keep in mind these bolts and threads are very very easy to break esp if removed from a cold engine and the hold down bolts must be tightened to the point of stretching and must never be reused.
 
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Nautamaran

2004 140” HRC 2500 (Crewed)
... Op, it's either not sealing because the heads seal face or the injectors seal face is dirty or damaged...
It now sounds like the seal faces have been cut well past tolerance so the bolts are bottoming in their holes without the seal making contact. But clearly the injectors will sit much too high with a second seal and the fuel pattern into the piston crown is going to hell.
So you're get a rich, sooty burn out in the cylinder instead of the concentrated swirly burn in the crown's toroid chamber.

Measure your current injector bore depth then select an appropriate seal thickness to get the required tip position.

There are Honda seals (part# 16472-RBD-E00) which are several thousandths thicker than the stock MB seals, and MB also has as series of over-thickness seals that are for use in recut heads, though I've not found their part numbers.

Comparison of seals: (from the injector replacement Write-Up thread)
https://sprinter-source.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=93673&d=1517445662

-dave
 

AdrianD

Member
Seeing this is a special case, wouldn't it be possible to accurately measure the seat depth and have a set of seals cut out of copper sheet?
 

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