Seized Engine

ljonny18

New member
Hi all, I have a 2013 Sprinter 316 with about 140,000km (90,000miles) on the clock.

I live in Germany, and its currently quite cold (-10 at night) The van was last used about a week ago with no problems and was then parked for a week. I went to use the van the other day, it started, drove about 5 meters and then stopped - it would then not start... I thought at first a flat battery and then maybe the Diesel was frozen ... I was then towed to my local MB Dealer (who look after the car) and they told me today that the engine is seized and they will look at it again on Monday.

To me, a Seized engine means lack of oil and game over but I have a few questions.
- Has anyone else experienced this with a Sprinter?
- Would it start and drive a few meters if it was a catastrophic engine failure?
- And lastly (I dread to ask)how much would a new engine cost, fitted?

Thanks for any help or advice !!!
Jon.
 

lindenengineering

Well-known member
Jon
Hello and greetings!
Specifically yes I have had similar experiences with customers' Sprinters which have failed in a similar manner.
For the most part it is caused by a lack of lubrication at the crankshaft.

Sludging of oil is one issue that restricts the oil flow to the crankshaft and the other is water from condensation which has built up in the engine sump and gets drawn into the oil pump.

The other is an internal coolant leak like a head gasket /cooler failure that allows coolant to drip into the engine oil pan & sump.
Remember oil floats on top of water so water gets sucked in first! (remember your general science classes in school) :thinking::laughing:

In either condition water is not a good lubrication medium and the crankshaft seizes abruptly. In most cases destroying the block at the crankshaft tunnel.

As for cost.
Well the labor (handwork) is about 12 hours of billable time!
Do you know what the charge out rate is in Euros at the shop where you have the van?

Now pricing on this side might be of a different tariff than you in Germany.
Having just replaced an engine (non Blutech) last week in my shop; the complete drop in engine ex MB works stored in Chicago was $10,500. or about 8500 E.
Add about $700 extra at my end if the engine is a Bluetech.

All the est and where are you in Germany?
Curious!
Dennis

I am going to try this --My sister in law Stefanie from Tubingen will be proud of me!
Jon
Hallo und Grüße!
Insbesondere habe ich ähnliche Erfahrungen mit Sprintern von Kunden gemacht, die auf ähnliche Weise versagt haben.
Zum größten Teil ist dies auf mangelnde Schmierung der Kurbelwelle zurückzuführen.

Das Einschlämmen von Öl ist ein Problem, das den Ölfluss zur Kurbelwelle einschränkt, und das andere ist Kondenswasser, das sich im Motorsumpf angesammelt hat und in die Ölpumpe gesaugt wird.

Das andere ist ein internes Kühlmittelleck wie ein Ausfall der Zylinderkopfdichtung / des Kühlers, der es ermöglicht, dass Kühlmittel in die Ölwanne des Motors tropft.
Denken Sie daran, dass das Öl auf dem Wasser schwimmt, so dass Wasser zuerst angesaugt wird! (Erinnere dich an deinen allgemeinen naturwissenschaftlichen Unterricht in der Schule)

In beiden Fällen ist Wasser kein gutes Schmiermedium und die Kurbelwelle fängt abrupt ab. In den meisten Fällen zerstört der Block am Kurbelwellentunnel.

Wie für die Kosten.
Nun, die Arbeit (Handarbeit) ist etwa 12 Stunden abrechenbare Zeit!
Weißt du, wie hoch die Gebühr in Euro ist, in dem Geschäft, in dem du den Van hast?

Die Preise auf dieser Seite könnten von einem anderen Tarif sein als Sie in Deutschland.
Habe gerade eine Maschine (nicht Blutech) letzte Woche in meinem Geschäft ersetzt; Der komplette Rückgang der in Chicago gelagerten Ex-MB-Werke betrug 10.500 US-Dollar. oder etwa 8500 E.
Fügen Sie ungefähr $ 700 Extra an meinem Ende hinzu, wenn der Motor ein Bluetech ist.

Alles was und wo bist du in Deutschland?
Neugierig!
Dennis
 

ljonny18

New member
Hi Dennis thanks a lot for the reply - so it does not sounds good at all, chances are it needs a new engine ? If so, do you know if Mercedes will cover any of the costs (its out of warranty both age and mileage, so I doubt it) ...

What would cause the sludging of oil ? Its serviced regular at the local MB garage ? would the cold weather have an effect ?

And wow - your german is good, and wow wow I Live in Tuebingen, in fact, my van is currently here:

http://www.autohaus-seeger.de/

Cheers,
Jon.
 

lindenengineering

Well-known member
Jon
Thanks for the praise but I confess I had to use "google translate" to correct my fading knowledge of German. As an exchange student from England in the 1970's I went to an early version TH Köln Campus Südstadt studying engineering.
Believe me Spanish is my most favourite language and I use it every day with latino mechanics in my shop.
I had French and Spanish with a dose of Latin rammed down my throat in England when in school for 13 years !
I am a drifting off topic here but my sister in law who is about to retire is a nurse practitioner in England. She came to Gloucester in the 1970's as an exchange medical student riding her Honda 125 motorcycle. She met my brother by crashing her bike into the back of his pickup truck!
She ended up in the back with a lacerated knee. He fixed her badly bent motorcycle, they got fixed up together as an item and have two grown sons ! One is called Jon a policeman! What a coincidence !
Anyway back to topic:-I wrote this recently.

That my dear friends is sludge.
Its root cause is infrequent if very few oil changes in its service life.

Essentially as the oil deteriorates the suspended additives start to drop out as contaminants binding up with carbon.
Since lubrication is affected and piston ring sealing, combustion blow by adds the jelling activity.
Then add too many short trips which then causes condensation in the engine and you get this lovely stuff.
Since it has a tendency to plug oil strainers the engine usually gets starved of oil and the crank & shells burn up. resulting a knocking noises,. sudden seizure and connecting rod detachment aka legs out of bed.
Legs out of bed--connecting rods blown out the side of the cylinder block

I see this with BMW. Ford compact 5 litre V8s and Nissan stuff as well!

For those who diligently stick to what MotherBenz states , like 20,000 between oil changes BEWARE! Simply put if you are 40 Mile per hour Fred or. grocery getter and church attendee on Sundays you might want to look at oil change frequencies.

Andso:-
Das meine lieben Freunde ist Schlamm.
Seine Ursache ist selten, wenn nur sehr wenige Ölwechsel in seiner Lebensdauer auftreten.

Im Wesentlichen, wenn sich das Öl verschlechtert, beginnen die suspendierten Additive auszufallen, da sich Verunreinigungen mit Kohlenstoff verbinden.
Da die Schmierung beeinflusst wird und die Kolbenringdichtung, fügt der Verbrennungsstoß die Gelieraktivität hinzu.
Dann addieren Sie zu viele kurze Reisen, die dann Kondensation im Motor verursachen, und Sie erhalten dieses reizende Zeug.
Da es die Tendenz hat, Ölsiebe zu verstopfen, wird der Motor normalerweise von Öl verhungert und die Kurbel und die Schalen verbrennen. resultierende Klopfgeräusche. plötzlichen Anfall und Pleuelstange Ablösung aka Beine aus dem Bett.
Beine aus dem Bett - Verbindungsstangen blasen die Seite des Zylinderblocks aus

Ich sehe das bei BMW. Ford kompakte 5-Liter-V8s und Nissan Sachen auch!

Für diejenigen, die sich fleißig an das halten, was MotherBenz sagt, wie 20.000 zwischen Ölwechseln, ACHTUNG! Einfach ausgedrückt, wenn Sie 40 Mile pro Stunde Fred oder. Lebensmittelhändler und Kirchenbesucher an Sonntagen möchten Sie vielleicht die Ölwechselhäufigkeit betrachten.

Again all the best
Dennis
 

Mein Sprinter

Known member
Jon
Thanks for the praise but I confess I had to use "google translate" to correct my fading knowledge of German. As an exchange student from England in the 1970's I went to an early version TH Köln Campus Südstadt studying engineering.
Believe me Spanish is my most favourite language and I use it every day with latino mechanics in my shop.
I had French and Spanish with a dose of Latin rammed down my throat in England when in school for 13 years !
I am a drifting off topic here but my sister in law who is about to retire is a nurse practitioner in England. She came to Gloucester in the 1970's as an exchange medical student riding her Honda 125 motorcycle. She met my brother by crashing her bike into the back of his pickup truck!
She ended up in the back with a lacerated knee. He fixed her badly bent motorcycle, they got fixed up together as an item and have two grown sons ! One is called Jon a policeman! What a coincidence !
Anyway back to topic:-I wrote this recently.

That my dear friends is sludge.
Its root cause is infrequent if very few oil changes in its service life.

Essentially as the oil deteriorates the suspended additives start to drop out as contaminants binding up with carbon.
Since lubrication is affected and piston ring sealing, combustion blow by adds the jelling activity.
Then add too many short trips which then causes condensation in the engine and you get this lovely stuff.
Since it has a tendency to plug oil strainers the engine usually gets starved of oil and the crank & shells burn up. resulting a knocking noises,. sudden seizure and connecting rod detachment aka legs out of bed.
Legs out of bed--connecting rods blown out the side of the cylinder block

I see this with BMW. Ford compact 5 litre V8s and Nissan stuff as well!

For those who diligently stick to what MotherBenz states , like 20,000 between oil changes BEWARE! Simply put if you are 40 Mile per hour Fred or. grocery getter and church attendee on Sundays you might want to look at oil change frequencies.

Andso:-
Das meine lieben Freunde ist Schlamm.
Seine Ursache ist selten, wenn nur sehr wenige Ölwechsel in seiner Lebensdauer auftreten.

Im Wesentlichen, wenn sich das Öl verschlechtert, beginnen die suspendierten Additive auszufallen, da sich Verunreinigungen mit Kohlenstoff verbinden.
Da die Schmierung beeinflusst wird und die Kolbenringdichtung, fügt der Verbrennungsstoß die Gelieraktivität hinzu.
Dann addieren Sie zu viele kurze Reisen, die dann Kondensation im Motor verursachen, und Sie erhalten dieses reizende Zeug.
Da es die Tendenz hat, Ölsiebe zu verstopfen, wird der Motor normalerweise von Öl verhungert und die Kurbel und die Schalen verbrennen. resultierende Klopfgeräusche. plötzlichen Anfall und Pleuelstange Ablösung aka Beine aus dem Bett.
Beine aus dem Bett - Verbindungsstangen blasen die Seite des Zylinderblocks aus

Ich sehe das bei BMW. Ford kompakte 5-Liter-V8s und Nissan Sachen auch!

Für diejenigen, die sich fleißig an das halten, was MotherBenz sagt, wie 20.000 zwischen Ölwechseln, ACHTUNG! Einfach ausgedrückt, wenn Sie 40 Mile pro Stunde Fred oder. Lebensmittelhändler und Kirchenbesucher an Sonntagen möchten Sie vielleicht die Ölwechselhäufigkeit betrachten.

Again all the best
Dennis
Ach Du Lieber, Dennis kann Deutsch sprechen und schreiben. Nächstes mal wenn wir vorbei kommen werden wir sprechen/plaudern auf Deutsch, eh.

cheers...
 

sailquik

Well-known member
ijonny18,
Might be good to look at your previous service records and determine what oil specification was used at your "local MB shop".
If they have been changing the oil regularly, with one of the correct specification oils listed on the MB BEVO list for you particular
year model and engine model, then you may need to visit them and see what they can discover about why your engine seized.
Yes, the cold temperatures may have contributed to this failure, but it seems like a 2nd opinion might be worthwhile.
Do you have any idea HOW the "engine is seized" diagnosis was discovered?
Did they take a wrench or socket and try to turn the crankshaft or did they simply hit the starter and when the engine wouldn't
turn make a snap diagnosis that the engine is completely seized because the start won't turn it.
While your engine very well could be seized as Dennis suggests, how it was determined that it's actually seized could make
a huge difference in the overall diagnosis.
If the engine is not "seized" but there are electrical issues that prevent the starter from turning the engine crankshaft so it will
start a snap diagnosis could easily be that the engine is seized, when actually it's a starter problem.
Again you have a 2013 316 CDI Sprinter, which is a little hard for us Yanks to identify which engine you have.
Is your engine the OM-651 4 cylinder?
Do you have the 7 speed (7G-Tronic) auto transmission or perhaps a 6 speed manual gearbox.
When I search on 2013 MB 316 CDI Sprinters for sale in Europe, I see a DT4 engine listed.
I believe this is the OM-651 (or a derivative/predecessor) 2.1 liter 4 cylinder that is available in several power ratings.
It comes with a 7G-Tronic, 5G-Tronic or 6 speed manual transmission.
Looking at your data card it looks like you have the 5G-tronic 722.6 5 speed transmission behind an OM-651 Euro 4 tuned
engine.
It also can be a 4x4.
Can you tell us more about which engine you have or perhaps send me your VIN# so I can pull the OEM Data Card
and discover exactly what engine/transmission/state of tune you have?
Just click "sailquik" above the photo of my 2014 Sprinter and trailer, then click "Send email to
sailquik
" in the drop down box that appears.
Include your VIN # and a valid return email address and I will send you a .pdf copy of all the specifications and options that
were assembled into your Sprinter.
Then all of us will have the full picture of what engine seized, what transmission you you have.
Roger
 
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ljonny18

New member
Hi Roger I will do just that once im home and have access to the car documents - thanks.

What I know off the top of my head is that its the 163 BHP 4 Cyclider 5 Speed Auto Diesel Engine.

Re the matter of the engine being "Seized" The workshop said they took the anlasser (starter) off the car and it still would not turn :(

Its strange as the van drove with no problems whatsoever 1 week ago, was parked up, then I started is and it drove 5 meters and stopped :(

Anyway - I will dig that information out and get it to you !

Thanks again,
Jon.
 

220629

Well-known member
I assume that someone has tried a socket and ratchet/breaker bar on the crankshaft to see if it is seized tightly or has some slight back and forth movement allowed.

vic
 

ljonny18

New member
I assume that someone has tried a socket and ratchet/breaker bar on the crankshaft to see if it is seized tightly or has some slight back and forth movement allowed.

vic
Hi Vic, thanks, I will ask. Would this be a difference of a new engine or not?

Thanks,
Jon.
 

lindenengineering

Well-known member
Hi Roger I will do just that once im home and have access to the car documents - thanks.

What I know off the top of my head is that its the 163 BHP 4 Cyclider 5 Speed Auto Diesel Engine.

Re the matter of the engine being "Seized" The workshop said they took the anlasser (starter) off the car and it still would not turn :(

Its strange as the van drove with no problems whatsoever 1 week ago, was parked up, then I started is and it drove 5 meters and stopped :(

Anyway - I will dig that information out and get it to you !

Thanks again,
Jon.
Remove the starter motor.
This is the prescribed Euro mechanic method to determine if the engine is actually seized (or simply locked) due to a starter motor malfunction locking the flywheel and giving the mechanical impression it is seized.
I would imagine they removed the starter and then tried to turn the engine to determine the extent of the problem.
This is standard practice in my shop.
Dennis
 

220629

Well-known member
Hi Vic, thanks, I will ask. Would this be a difference of a new engine or not?

Thanks,
Jon.
Not for a dealership, but may hint whether the mains are seized or some other component(s) are involved. A little wiggle might hint that the mains didn't lock up.

Not very scientific.

vic
 

ljonny18

New member
Ok, so the Mercedes garage have today confirmed that the engine is Seized.
They have not said why and not yet looked into why, but have told me that investigating and diagnosing the problem will be expensive :(

I looked at the records, and the van was with them approx 10,000km (6000 miles) ago for a full service including new oil and also repairing an oil leak requiring a new oil pan and gaskets and bolts plus some other bits... the service cost 1600 Euros.

I spoke to the mechanic today and he said he has never experienced this is 20 years working at Mercedes. The van has been running with no problems, no warning lights, nothing. It was simply started driven 5 meters and seized - the only difference was the recent cold weather (-10 Degrees at night) ... no idea ...
 

220629

Well-known member
...

I looked at the records, and the van was with them approx 10,000km (6000 miles) ago for a full service including new oil and also repairing an oil leak requiring a new oil pan and gaskets and bolts plus some other bits...
... no idea ...
That should put to rest any question of oil pan sludge.

Good luck to you.
:cheers: vic
 

ljonny18

New member
Remove the starter motor.
This is the prescribed Euro mechanic method to determine if the engine is actually seized (or simply locked) due to a starter motor malfunction locking the flywheel and giving the mechanical impression it is seized.
I would imagine they removed the starter and then tried to turn the engine to determine the extent of the problem.
This is standard practice in my shop.
Dennis
Hi Dennis, yes they did
 

220629

Well-known member
Hi Vic - sorry I don't understand?
If the oil pan and oil was recently replaced there is really no chance that a layer of sludge formed in the bottom of the oil pan to restrict the oil pickup and cause oil starvation with resulting low oil pressure/flow. Sludge builds up over time and many miles, certainly not just 6000 miles in a new oil pan.

vic
 
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icarus

Well-known member
On the other hand, it may be suspicious that the pan was recently removed. Why, and was it replaced properly, did some grit remain in the reinstalled pan etc?

Icarus
 

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