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Wanted
11-23-2017, 12:34 PM
I picked up a 2006 416CDI 4x4 in Europe and am driving it 3000km home. Everything seems to be running well and all is smooth while driving on the highway. No heat problems etc. However, when the van is sitting at idle I can hear a noise underneath that sounds like something rotating and has a sound like a galloping horse (if I can use that comparison?). It doesn't sound like it's destroying anything, but does sound like it's probably not ideal. As soon as I push the clutch in, the sound disappears. When I take my foot back off the clutch, the sound reappears again. I don't really have any mechanical experience but over the phone my old man told me it could be a thrust bearing?

Any ideas guys? Sounds expensive? I've done 1500km and am halfway home

Patrick of M
11-23-2017, 01:17 PM
Your old man is correct. Sounds like a thrust bearing, if it seizes it will do damage, but if you don't idle with the clutch depressed it will last longer. I am not familiar with T1N manual transmissions, but on a regular transmission pulling the thrust and changing it means pulling the trans, so while you are in there you do the clutch as well, unless it is very healthy. Sometimes the PO changed a clutch and saved some $ by not changing the TB . It's a gamble to continue, basically all time spent with the clutch depressed is wearing thealready failing bearing. This can be mitigated by coasting in neutral, idling in neutral. Personally if I was on a long trip, I would limp to the nearest, recommended transmission shop and have it changed. Cause if it seizes it'll cost more.

lindenengineering
11-23-2017, 01:27 PM
Wanted
Well it could be expensive.
Remember the clutch is connected to the gearbox input shaft, which in turn is connected to the layshaft permanently inside the box.
When you disconnect the clutch the whole lot stop whirring around so it might conceivably be something n the box as well.
Or in fact clutch itself rattling on the input shaft splines.
Dennis

Patrick of M
11-23-2017, 01:45 PM
Just realized I read that wrong... the noise is at idle with the clutch engaged(no foot on clutch pedal)? If that is the case not thrust bearing, that makes noise when the clutch pedal is depressed.

Wanted
11-23-2017, 01:53 PM
Yeah I am not sure, when I take my foot off of the pedal, the noise starts. When I push the pedal in the noise goes away. I don't know if it's happening while I'm driving down the highway because the noise of the engine is probably masking it. I just see dollar signs - __-'

Just from reading online, it could be the input shaft bearing. It seems to be a bit of an argument online whether it is the thrust bearing or input shaft bearing, as people can't agree on which one makes the noise when the clutch is engaged (pedal out)

Cheyenne
11-23-2017, 02:22 PM
Wanted,

The first thing I would do is check the gearbox oil level, there is a plug on the side and the oil level should be just at the bottom of of the hole.

Also while you are under there look for any signs of oil leaks or debris in or around the bellhousing.

If you just ever so gently press the clutch does the noise stop? Or do you have to press the clutch all the way to fully disconnect the engine from the gearbox?

Keith.

ECU
11-23-2017, 05:07 PM
Worth a check of the harmonic balance. A loose outer ring can rub against stuff and sound like that. I don't know why it would stop with the clutch.

Wanted
11-23-2017, 05:50 PM
Wanted,

The first thing I would do is check the gearbox oil level, there is a plug on the side and the oil level should be just at the bottom of of the hole.

Also while you are under there look for any signs of oil leaks or debris in or around the bellhousing.

If you just ever so gently press the clutch does the noise stop? Or do you have to press the clutch all the way to fully disconnect the engine from the gearbox?

Keith.

Hey Keith, thanks for the message. I jumped under and took a look, I can't see any sign of a leak around the bell housing. I'm in transit between Denmark and Spain at the moment so don't have any tools or anything, can't get in to check the gearbox oil. I took a photo of the area here;

http://oi67.tinypic.com/34ywun8.jpg

I drew a red circle from around where the noise was coming from, I don't know where the gearbox oil plug is but I'm guessing it is the one in the picture that is inside the same red circle.

If I ever so gently press in the clutch, it sounds like it speeds up slightly or adds an extra rattle until the clutch pedal is fully pressed in, and the sound disappears completely.

I have 1,500km until I arrive to Madrid and I don't need to drive it anymore, in fact I intend to strip most of it back to bare bones in order to prep it for a conversion and I'll replace any bearings, bushings, ball joints and tidy up everything underneath anyway. Do you think I should continue on the 1500km to Madrid, or is it critical and will lead to something catastrophic if not fixed immediately. I guess it's worth noting that I first noticed the noise when I first left Denmark, 1500km ago.

lindenengineering
11-23-2017, 06:18 PM
My advise is to get the level checked maybe drain the oil and look for metal!
If there are no chunks then carry on.
As inspiration I drove in me younger yurs a 1956 Morris Minor from Gloucester to Lille and then to Beziers to collect and tow a Citroen 2CV back to Lille with a noisy gearbox and with No 1st or reverse gear!
Dennis

Patrick of M
11-24-2017, 01:33 AM
Adding to what Dennis says, if it makes more noise in neutral, stay out of neutral. That may help get you there. It's the opposite with a bad thrust bearing, you try to stay in neutral and away from the clutch.

fisjon
11-24-2017, 04:40 PM
This sounds to me like a detached or loose finger/s on the pressure plate. A loose/damaged finger will flap about at idle but will stop rattling as soon as you press the clutch pedal because the bearing is pushing on the fingers to open the clutch. When you are motoring along the higher engine speed rotational forces will contain any loose debris and steady any damaged fingers and the noise will go away.
Unless it is a large piece of debris it probably won't cause a problem. I have a bit of clutch clatter on my old 2.9/5pot 312d. It doesn't worry me!

CharlesinGA
11-25-2017, 07:52 PM
If a very light touch of the clutch pedal stops the noise, then its the throwout bearing (what you are referring to as the thrust bearing) they can be dry and rattle, and pressing them tightly to the clutch makes them quiet-en up. If you need a fully depressed clutch pedal for the noise to stop, then it is the transmission innards rotating that is causing it, as Dennis noted. Could be any gear or bearing on the input shaft or counter shaft/lay shaft/cluster gear (whatever you call it in your part of the world).

By all means get the fluid checked/changed or you could destroy the transmission.

Charles

Wanted
11-26-2017, 10:49 PM
Well I made it the 1500km back to Spain without much issue. Will get the noise checked out tomorrow. Parked up the van last night and went to check around things today, my girlfriends dad turned on the car to check it out and started revving it a few times. We then all listened for the noise but it wasn't so bad (typically worse after the van has been running for a while). But all of a sudden we noticed a bit of smoke or something smouldering under the drivers side headlight behind the bumper. No idea what it is, disconnected the battery and it seemed to stop - __-' no idea what it is but any white smouldering smoke has to be coming from some sort of electrical cable nearby under the headlight, doesn't seem normal lol

lindenengineering
11-27-2017, 12:17 AM
Remember!
Electrical wiring is made with smoke built into it.
Depending upon the current and the size of the cable, the right circumstances, and the smoke may be let out.

This can be quite spectacular at times , so the moral of the story is DON'T let the smoke out!
Dennis

DesertAdventures
11-27-2017, 12:46 AM
Another option I've found useful is to take a piece of wood/pipe/stethoscope etc and check around to try and isolate where noise is coming from.

PS: Congrats on making it home!

ECU
11-27-2017, 04:37 AM
That smoke could be the Espar Aux Heater.

Midwestdrifter
11-27-2017, 06:30 AM
That smoke could be the Espar Aux Heater.

If the smoke smelled like diesel instead of burned vinyl/plastic, then it's probably the espar coolant heater (Assuming you have one). Might be a good sign, as many don't even try to run after a few years.

Wanted
11-27-2017, 07:53 AM
That smoke could be the Espar Aux Heater.

If the smoke smelled like diesel instead of burned vinyl/plastic, then it's probably the espar coolant heater (Assuming you have one). Might be a good sign, as many don't even try to run after a few years.

Thanks guys, that is exactly what it is. The thing sounds like a plane taking off when it's fully cranking. Don't know why or how it is in, other than its about -1 Celsius outside and maybe it starts below 0? There is a trail of smoke leaking through the cracks of the unit. Don't know how to control this thing or disconnect it. Might be one for YouTube

Midwestdrifter
11-27-2017, 08:56 AM
There should be a timer on the dash, or a button under the aircon one. You can also just unplug it, remove the headlight for access. When working properly they are really nice in cold weather. There are some threads on it for your reading. I have a newer model of this heater for making.hot water and heating my engine.

Wanted
11-27-2017, 01:54 PM
There should be a timer on the dash, or a button under the aircon one. You can also just unplug it, remove the headlight for access. When working properly they are really nice in cold weather. There are some threads on it for your reading. I have a newer model of this heater for making.hot water and heating my engine.

Yup, you're absolutely right, there was an aircon style dial which had the heater on/off thing on it (seperate to the smart select control thing). Was able to turn it off and will replace it with a new D4 later on during the build as I've heard the OEM ones are terrible. Just in a process of diagnosing any noticeable issues at the moment and this forum has been such a huge help.

I went out and tested all the 4x4 again this morning. I think I may have an issue with the rear diff lock engaging. I press the button to engage 4x4 and the amber light comes on, followed by the red light. I then press the button to engage low range (just to make sure its working), and the same thing. The amber light comes on, followed by the red light. But then I press the rear diff lock button, the amber light comes on but no red light ever appears. Not sure what is going on there. Any ideas?

ECU
11-27-2017, 04:17 PM
You'll want that heater. I found that on that cold day when snow is deep and traffic is slow that my van will start to freeze over.
Stuck in 15 mph traffic in 15 degree weather and the ice forms so deep on the windshield that it becomes hard to see and the engine temp is about 110F.
The joke is that the control button is the symbol for bacon. The far right of the heater. Top is A/C. Middle bowtie button is that heater and it only comes on when the engine is running. Bottom button is REST, to recover energy from the heat system after you stop. It only works when the engine is off. It runs for about 20 minutes to pull the heat or cold from your van's heater system.

Midwestdrifter
11-28-2017, 08:29 AM
On T1Ns the 4x4 controls are fairly simple.

When you push the button, the 4x4 control unit triggers one of several vacuum control solenoids under the van near the drivers door. These control the vacuum flow to the actuators which in turn move gears and shafts to do what you want.

The transfer case has two actuators. One for 4x4 on/off, and one for low range on/off. As far as I can tell, the 4x4 control unit has no electronic feedback from the diff. it may have a switch in the T case to indicate 4x4 on/off It has some built in logic, and a wait timer. If you have the owners manual, its gives you a description of how to use the 4x4 system. There are certain conditions which need to be met, or the control unit won't switch the solenoids. For example, I am pretty sure it won't let you engage low range unless you are nearly going slow and in neutral.


I have also found that the T case and rear diff lock can get what is called "torque locked" if you are stopped when you turn them off/on. This means that even though the indicator light is off, you may need to roll the van forward, or put it into reverse briefly to release the load, and let the vacuum/spring move the actuator.

The rear diff lock is easy enough to test. Jack up the rear axle, and turn the lock on. IN neutral, you and a helper can confirm if both wheel are locked together.

Alternatively you can take the diff cover off and observe the locking actuator move. You will need silicone, or a new gasket, and some gear oil (about 1.8L).


The nice thing about the T1N 4x4 system is that at its heart it is purely mechanical (even if it does have electronics for the buttons). If you find the system wont work for some electrical reason, you can bypass the solenoids and connect vacuum directly to the actuator.


FYI. User Eric Experience has a number of T1N 4x4s, and has used then extensively. He may be willing to answer any questions you have about operation and usage. Obviously read the manual first though.