MAP loss

I’ve been having problems with my ’04 Sprinter and loss of MAP and overall power. Problem started a few weeks ago with a few minor lurches while going up hill at higher speeds (65 or so) with engine load near 100%. I hooked up my UltraGauge and started monitoring the MAP and sure enough I started noticing quick dips in the pressure. The pressure would only dip if I was above 28psi or so. When I got up to 32 or 33 the loss of pressure would happen on a more regular interval. I don’t have a lot of time to do any wrenching on my van so I took it to Upscale Automotive just south of Portland. They’d worked on the van before and had already replaced the turbo resonator. I described the problem though they didn’t really care to listen to my list of symptoms… They said “they’d check it out…” I had to go to Alaska for work for 2 weeks. During that time Upscale did a treatment with BG. I wasn’t familiar with this product but they assured me my van would be running great afterwards! Turns out they couldn’t run the treatment without replacing my EGR valve, so they did that. I believe they also replaced an O-ring on the turbo resonator because they said whomever installed it never put one on. I never let them know that they were the ones that replaced the resonator and didn’t install the O ring. Once I get back from AK they say the van is running great and they inspected everything and the problem was solved. I drove the van back up to Portland in traffic and was unable to get my speed above 50 or so due to traffic. But the van appeared to run well albeit it sounded a bit different. I am assuming this was due to the BG treatment?

The van sat for a few days as its not my daily driver and I thought all was well. I had a job in California so I packed up the van and hit the road. The first couple hours felt just fine in the van, but again there was traffic and it is pretty flat south of Portland. Once I started hitting some hills I noticed I was once again loosing MAP pressure. I was a bit pissed to say the least. With no other choice I continued south. The problem became worse as I went and became bad enough that the van started going into limp mode occasionally, though I wasn’t getting any CEL. A restart would clear up the problem. I did some sleuthing on here and read that if I keep my MAP below 26-28 I wouldn’t go into limp mode. So I tried this and was able to make it to California eventually (though on the slow side.) After my job was finished in CA slowly returned home to Portland only going into limp mode a few times.

Now I am trying to figure out what to. There is no way I am going back to Upscale at this point and am looking for a recommendation for a Portland area mechanic. I am also wondering if there are specific things I can ask the mechanic to check on as the obvious problems like hoses and turbo resonator have already been checked or replaced (though there is a chance Upscale never even bothered to do this.)

Thoughts?

There's also the chance the intercooler is cracked (there's a current thread about that)

This thread: https://sprinter-source.com/forum/showthread.php?t=56962
(and you might find this one useful, too: https://sprinter-source.com/forum/showthread.php?t=57057 )

--dick

I’m still dealing with this problem after having taken it in to JC Car Care in Lake Oswego Oregon. Jacob the shop owner has spent a bunch of time on it and unfortunately hasn’t found any leaks in the hoses or intercooler. He has done a pressurized smoke test on it and wasn’t able to find anything. He did find a stored low boost pressure code and reset it for me. I took it for the weekend to see if I could get it to throw another code which it did. While having it for the weekend I started to notice that outside air temp had a lot to do with the loss of MAP pressure, boost pressure and overall power with the van. When I left Portland temps were in the upper 80 and low 90’s. The van felt sluggish and it wasn’t that hard to make the van go into limp mode while driving 65 and attempting to accelerate. I slowed the driving down and kept the engine load and acceleration to a minimum and was able to go hours without limp mode. Though I wasn’t going into limp mode the van was still pulsing above 55. When the MAP was near 30 it would drop down to 25 for a short second and I’d loose power. Then pressure would go back up and stay there form 5-10 seconds and then drop again. I continued to just drive conservatively and made it to my destination.

On the way home the temps were closer to 60 and I was driving at night. The van felt totally different. The power was back and I could drive 70 without going into limp mode very often. It happened a couple times in a couple hours but not nearly as often as during the warmer day.

I took it back to JC’s and he had another look but wasn’t able to find anything besides the low boost pressure code. At this point he is recommending I replace the turbo actuator, which unfortunately isn’t sold without the turbo. I’m a bit hesitant to do this as I don’t think my symptoms are in line with a faulty actuator and at a cost of $3k I want to be fairly certain that is the problem. For some reason I still think it is some kind of leak that only happens when it is warm which a smoke test in a shop might not show. But I am no mechanic just someone who trouble shoots and fixes a lot of other random broken **** for work.

I heard of a few people getting the actuator rebuilt which sounds much more reasonable on the pocket book! Does anybody actually rebuild the actuator?

Any other sage advice for tracking down a tricky to find loss of boost pressure?

You can source the actuator without the turbo... but first you need to determine if it really is the actuator -or- perhaps the linkage from the actuator to the turbo -or- perhaps the swivel arm on the turbo that's causing you grief,'if this indeed is the problem area (not too common although I did help a fellow forumer with a bad actuator a few months back)

It's pretty straight forward to isolate the problem to this area.... pull the heat shield over the turbo... locate the turbo actuator arm which is the arm coming up to the turbo (there's a c-clip)... make sure your rig is not in limp home mode (sounds like just shutting down and then restarting will do it compared to clearing the codes)... while the vehicle is running disconnect the MAF sensor (the large plug on the air intake just before the actual intake that goes into the turbo)... if the actuator and the related arm and swivel points are functioning correctly that linkage will swivel upwards from about 9pm to 10pm within about 1 second after disconnecting the MAF(of course think of it as a clock)... if it doesn't!!!! You will need to determine if the linkage is gummed up (perhaps rusted in place or some debris got caught in there) or if the actuator itself is burnt toast.

I've got this exact problem as well. Same exact thing except I'm located in SC and the temps right now and are in the 70s and rarely below.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

SC??? Isn't that where Dr A is?? I wouldn't know any of this crap if I had that guy in my neighborhood because I'd actually have someone to trust with my rig..

If not, the above test only requires a #10 socket and ten minutes of your precious time..

The Doktor A Sprinter Hotline is:
Andy (Dr. A) Bittenbinder
864-623-9110
Clemson SC (just W of Greenville)

--dick

I’m still stuck with a low/high boost problem. (Codes 2359-2 Charge pressure control faulty, and P0299 Low boost and High boost)

Here is what has been done/tested/replaced/checked so far:

• All hoses replaced and checked for correct clamps and O-rings where needed.
• Turbo Resonator was replaced a few years back with aluminum version. These don’t fail correct?
• EGR Valve replaced
• System was smoke tested, no leaks
• Turbo Actuator tested by disconnecting MAF sensor. Appears to have normal operation
• Actuator removed to check linkage (and get part number). Moves freely without rust.
• Removed intake hose and looked at turbo vanes. No scratches on the sidewall or nicks in fins.
• Air filter checked as well as box vacuumed out.
• Compared IAT reading to ambient air temp. They are really close at idle. Last night ambient was 80F and IAT fluctuated from 90F to 118F depending on engine load. Is this a normal IAT given ambient temps?

And here are some of the things that I’ve found that I’m not sure how to fix.

I noticed a small knick in one of the wires coming from the O2 sensor. The abrasion is on the wiring harness side. Is it possible to just buy a new connector? Butt end connectors are a bad idea on the wiring harness correct?

I also noticed some abrasion on the wiring leading to the turbo actuator. Again, it is located really close the connector and doesn’t seem possible to temporarily fix.

Do I just need to get a whole new wiring harness to fix these spots? Any other temporary fix to at least rule this out as the cause?


And a few facts.

MAP is approx 14.3 PSI at idle and tops out at 33.2 or so. I am at see level right now.
Boost goes up to 18.5 PSI. Looses 3-5 PSI when the van lurches. After LIM it reads anywhere from 0 to 2 PSI.

Does smoke testing always show leaks? Since my symptoms increase with an increase of ambient temp I am wondering if something is leaking once it gets hot enough, which a smoke test wouldn’t show correct? I am going to have a look at the intercooler to check for oil leakage.

I’m trying to not shotgun parts at this problem but am running out of ideas…. Also hoping to not ship the van to have Doktor A look at it...

mikeylikesrocks said:

...
[*]Turbo Resonator was replaced a few years back with aluminum version. These don’t fail correct?
...

Click to expand...

Not the aluminum, but a seal could go bad. That said, going by posts here that is not a common failure.

mikeylikesrocks said:

...
[*]Turbo Actuator tested by disconnecting MAF sensor. Appears to have normal operation
[*]Actuator removed to check linkage (and get part number). Moves freely without rust.
...

Click to expand...

If later you are still struggling, check the actuator linkage very carefully. Reports have been that sometimes the slightest catch in smooth operation can trigger LHM.

mikeylikesrocks said:

...
[*]Compared IAT reading to ambient air temp. They are really close at idle. Last night ambient was 80F and IAT fluctuated from 90F to 118F depending on engine load. Is this a normal IAT given ambient temps?

Click to expand...

That seems about right.

mikeylikesrocks said:

...
I noticed a small knick in one of the wires coming from the O2 sensor. The abrasion is on the wiring harness side. Is it possible to just buy a new connector? Butt end connectors are a bad idea on the wiring harness correct?

Click to expand...

Why? If you have identified a specific problem area a connector is often fine. I generally dip the stripped wire end into Vaseline before crimping. That gives some protection.

mikeylikesrocks said:

... I also noticed some abrasion on the wiring leading to the turbo actuator. Again, it is located really close the connector and doesn’t seem possible to temporarily fix.

Click to expand...

Strip it open enough to properly inspect. Sometimes a jumper of wire needs to be added for access/repair. The wire length is not that critical.

mikeylikesrocks said:

... Do I just need to get a whole new wiring harness to fix these spots? Any other temporary fix to at least rule this out as the cause?

Click to expand...

That could be one answer. It can be a bit of a job though.

mikeylikesrocks said:

... And a few facts.

MAP is approx 14.3 PSI at idle and tops out at 33.2 or so. I am at see level right now.
Boost goes up to 18.5 PSI.

Click to expand...

Under heavier acceleration?

mikeylikesrocks said:

... Looses 3-5 PSI when the van lurches. After LIM it reads anywhere from 0 to 2 PSI.

Click to expand...

Typical pressure after the turbo is disabled for LHM.

mikeylikesrocks said:

... Does smoke testing always show leaks? Since my symptoms increase with an increase of ambient temp I am wondering if something is leaking once it gets hot enough, which a smoke test wouldn’t show correct? I am going to have a look at the intercooler to check for oil leakage.

Click to expand...

What pressure was used?

mikeylikesrocks said:

... I’m trying to not shotgun parts at this problem but am running out of ideas…. Also hoping to not ship the van to have Doktor A look at it...

Click to expand...

You don't need to ship the van for him to consult over the phone. He is quite generous with his time and talent.

vic

Members have bought or received cut-off ends of wiring harnesses and soldered them on to the existing harnesses to repair connector and near-connector problems.

The IAT will go up when your turbo is operating ... that's what the intercooler is fighting. Your values seem reasonable.

When my IAT sensor was failing, i saw 140 F on 40 F days ... which i knew was way too high.
If your IAT shows within a couple of degrees of the ambient temperature when the engine is off or just idling before getting warmed up, it's probably OK

--dick

Aqua Puttana said:

Under heavier acceleration?

Click to expand...

Yes, when I've got the pedal to the floor and accelerating as fast as possible my MAP stops at 33 and boost at 18 (and rarely gets there)

Aqua Puttana said:

Why? If you have identified a specific problem area a connector is often fine.

Click to expand...

I was under the impression that the added resistance might cause problems and lead to inaccurate data?

Aqua Puttana said:

What pressure was used?

Click to expand...

I'm not exactly sure, but the mechanic works on Sprinters often and hopefully knew to not go above 20 PSI


I've also been monitoring MAF with an Ultragauge. There are two readouts, MAF 1 being the the sensor data and MAF 2 is this the calculated amount (at least that is what the Ultragauge manual says).

The ranges for the MAF1 is 35 to 135g/s. And the MAF2 reports ranges from 16 to 55g/s. I've looked around on the forum and haven't been able to find any comparable data to see if these should be the same amount.

Here’s a little update.

I talked with Doktor A and he encouraged me to go back and check all of the hoses myself, which I did today. Everything looked good there. To check the small exit hose from the intercooler I had to take off the grill and headlight assembly. Once I did this I figured I should try and have a peak at the intercooler itself even though I’ve been told that that part rarely has leaks (Even the good Doktor A said this). I removed the the long metal piece that the hood latches into which gave me an ok look down in between the intercooler and radiator. And to my surprise this space was over 50% filled with a former bees nest! I was able to get a long skinny piece of wood down between the radiator and intercooler to knock it all out. Then I had a look between the intercooler and the AC condenser and low and behold there is a large black spray of oil in the middle of the intercooler and AC condenser. This is about the same location as where the bees nest was but on front of the intercooler. I was able to move the condenser out of the way enough to slide my hand down the intercooler and sure enough it is covered in oil.

My best guess is the bees nest was blocking enough air flow that the intercooler was getting way to hot in that one area and eventually all of the heating and cooling fatigued the aluminum OR the bees are such good nest builders they applied enough pressure to crack it! This blockage also explains why my loss of power symptoms were magnified during periods of hot weather. I’d also noticed the engine temperature running a bit higher than normal during periods of high engine load but it was so minor I didn’t really think much of it.

So now I gotta figure out if I need to take the AC condenser off to pull the intercooler. I haven’t had much luck finding a good write up on taking the intercooler out. The service manual doesn't make it too clear. Does anyone know?


And on a side note, I was also researching replacing the turbo actuator as this is what the mechanic thought was wrong. I contacted Alec from http://sprinter.turboactuatorrepair.com/ about getting a replacement. He was gonna send me out one to try but he didn’t have the correct one in stock so I was gonna send in mine. Before I did that we both thought it would be a good idea to have a look at the actuator to see if it even looked broken. I took it off the van and then took the 6 silver clips off of it to inspect the internals. I was looking for anything wrong with the nylon worm gears and the tiny little leads that look kinda like legs from a Spyder. Everything appeared to be in normal working order and after my visual inspection Alec doesn’t think there is anything wrong with my actuator. He recommend I checked for leaks…

Here are a couple photos of the inside of the actuator and looking down between the ac condenser and intercooler.

Thanks for all the information.

mikeylikesrocks said:

...

So now I gotta figure out if I need to take the AC condenser off to pull the intercooler. I haven’t had much luck finding a good write up on taking the intercooler out. The service manual doesn't make it too clear. Does anyone know?


...

Click to expand...

I recall that the Service Manual included condenser removal. (Looki t up. don't trust my poor memory.) By taking a different path, a DIY operation may avoid that though.

Before removing the intercooler it may be worthwhile to do a DIY 20 psi pressure test.

Here's my method. There are different methods posted by others too.
https://sprinter-source.com/forum/showthread.php?p=161278#post161278

vic

Although it makes it easier to remove the intercooler if the ac condensor is out, my experience is that it can create other issues including the possibility of cracking the aluminum lines going into the condensor when removing or putting back in place after removal. Not to mention you will also need to go and get your ac refrigerant properly serviced to get your ac working again.... I recently replaced an intercooler without removing the condensor and am happy I went that route.

As a side note, and not to diminish your optimism because it looks like you found the source of the problem , I was chasing a p2359-001 underboost code and found evidence of a wasp nest and oil residue due to what looked like oil vapor escaping from the intercooler and replacing the intercooler aleviated the issue but only for several hundred miles and then the code came back.

Since then I've gone through tests with the vehicle by chalking the wheels in the front, engaging ebrake and regular brake, putting in drive and putting the petal to the metal while looking at boost values through a c3 star xentry computer. At idle the boost value was showing 14.27 psi when 14.7 was expected. With the petal down we get up to about 32 psi expected values (what the ecm was looking for) but the actual value was 27psi and the vehicle would then go in to lhm.

Iat sensor, map sensors, MAF sensor have been changed out or tested with known good, same result. All hoses have been replaced and same results. Actuator is good.

I've urged this person to seek out a good smoke test, and perhaps inspect the seal around the resonator. If it passes the smoke test and the resonator seal is good, I hate to say it, and it goes against my inuition, but this vehicle may actually be a candidate for a new turbo.

For you.... I'd say do the pressure test, but you've already done that with the smoke test.... unless they didn't do it right.?.?.?.

So on to the intercooler just to rule it out since you've found evidence there!!

vanski said:

... unless they didn't do it right.?.?.?.
...

Click to expand...

That was why I suggested the DIY test.

vic

Well, I ordered a new intercooler from Euro Parts. I am optimistic that is the problem but even if its not the problem right now it will be down the road. It was leaking enough oil that the electric fan in the front on the AC condenser had oil on it.

I'd build a DIY pressure tester but I am currently living in downtown portland and had to go to the hardware store to buy enough tools to check the hoses. And just finding a parking spot to work on the van has been hard enough. I was literally scared a homeless man was gonna try and walk off with my tools while I was underneath the van.

I was able to take out and replace the intercooler in about 3 hours without that much trouble. And I followed Vanski's advice to not remove the AC condenser which was perfect. It's not too bad to slide the intercooler up and out. There was one pesky bolt connecting the condenser to the intercooler that required taking the bumper off but that wasn't very difficult, minus the stupid nylon compression plug bolts on the side.

After rush hour traffic died down I took the van for a spin. I felt the difference immediately! The power in the van was finally back. I didn't even have to look at the boost pressure gauge to know that I'd fixed the problem. But of course I did have a look. The boost pressure was now hovering closer to 18-19 PSI when accelerating as fast as possible. Previously I wasn't getting above 16. There was no pulsing while driving at a fixed speed above 65. Heck it was hard to keep the van below 75! I had really forgotten how much power these vans can have, especially completely empty. I had a pretty huge smile on my face while driving around. For some reason I'd had a suspicion that the intercooler had been the problem even before having a peek at it, but when I brought this idea up to the mechanic (and even Doktor A) it sounded like there is no way that would be the problem. I kept thinking that a leak might not show in the intercooler if the smoke test was done while the van was cold as the symptoms were very subdued when the temps were low and I'd just started driving the van. My guess was the aluminum in the intercooler would need to be hot and more flexible to start leaking.


I've kinda been getting kicked around in life lately, I tore my ACL a few months ago, had a huge bill from surgery, haven't been able to work do to the injury and then the Van had been consuming even more money! After all of the trips to the mechanic I was feeling pretty hopeless and frustrated about it getting solved without shot gunning more parts and money. But thankfully there is the sprinter-source.com! There is no doubt without all of the information and help from this site I would of had the guts to try and fix the van myself. I'd like to give a huge thanks to everyone that has contributed to this resource and even offered to help me out.

Nice work!!!!!

mikeylikesrocks said:

I noticed a small knick in one of the wires coming from the O2 sensor. The abrasion is on the wiring harness side. Is it possible to just buy a new connector? Butt end connectors are a bad idea on the wiring harness correct?

I also noticed some abrasion on the wiring leading to the turbo actuator. Again, it is located really close the connector and doesn’t seem possible to temporarily fix.

Do I just need to get a whole new wiring harness to fix these spots? Any other temporary fix to at least rule this out as the cause?

Click to expand...

A couple possibilities.
1) liquid electrical tape, + self sealing electrical tape + split loom
2) crimped butt splice if the wire does its' full bend before where the butt splice will be. + heatshrink + spit loom. Crimp it with a proper crimper.

It would help to see pics of the abrasion spots.