Broken timing chain options?

khearn

2006 140" High Roof Cargo
2006 Sprinter 2500 T1N with just under 200K miles.

On I-10 east of Indio, CA yesterday evening, climbing a long grade, there was a thump and the engine died. Got towed to Blythe, CA and the mechanics looked at it this morning and say that the timing chain broke and the camshaft gear on the intake side is also broken. Their initial advice it to replace the engine, just based on it being an interference engine with what they consider high mileage. But is that really high mileage for a Sprinter?

They're quoting $1500 labor for replacing the engine (plus the cost of the engine, of course). A brand new engine lists for $15,785, but they haven't checked to see if they can get a better price somewhere. I've found a remanufactured engine for ~$7000 (www.remanns.com) with some quick web searching.

Is there any real chance that it can be repaired without a full replacement? They're quoting ~$3000 (parts and labor ) for removing & replacing the head, not including the cost of the cam gear or the valve job. They can't get a quote for the vavle job until the head gets to the machine shop they use in Phoenix, but a very rough estimate is between $250-$700.

Could there be other damage besides just the head?

If an engine replacement is the best options, any suggestions for a supplier?

Any other options I haven't thought of?

I was on my way to my parents home in Phoenix, which is about 150 miles away, so I'm considering having it towed there, both for convenience (since it will take several days, whatever I do), plus figuring prices might be a little lower there, rather than at the only AA approved shop in a small town in the middle of the desert. Anyone have a shop they can recommend in te Phoenix area?

Obviously I'm hoping for quick responses, given that I'm kind stuck here until I figure out what to do.
 

chromisdesigns

New member
Not able to tell without pulling the head you could have broken pistons scored cylinder walls busted rods etc etc. broken timing chain in interference engine is not a good thing generally. If it were mine I would try to find a low miles used engine before doing anything else
 

2004VannaWhite

Big White Box
You can try Potomac German Auto for a used engine, typically $3-4K. Jasper Engines does a reman with a 12 month warranty for $6800 (ish).

$1500 is about right for the task, plus consumables. Id say if your motor cut loose the timing chain at speed, there isn't much left to rebuild.
 

khearn

2006 140" High Roof Cargo
I talked to Dr. A on the phone. What a wonderful person! I hope I get this right, any mistakes are my fault, not his. He says he doubts the chain actually broke, it was probably the camshaft gear that went. He says the factory gear is sintered and fairly wimpy looking. The factory remanned engines are shipping with an older model of gear that is heavier (and either cast or forged, I don't remember what he said). So apparently MB knows that the sintered gear is crap. Dr. A says he's heard of around 8 or so of these gears failing, as early as 100K miles.

So maybe I've got a broken camsaft, Probably some damaged lifters and at least half the valves bent. Maybe even damaged piston(s) and/or cylinder(s). He said it's probably practical to repair, but only if one has a good source of reliable used parts (which I do not). With new parts with would probably be too expensive to be practical. But without opening things up to see exactly what the damage is, it's impossible to know.

And of course, having someone open it up far enough to tell is going to cost money, which may well be wasted if there is too much damage. *sigh* Given that it failed at speed and probably got a fair amount of damage, it really doesn't sound like it's a good gamble to pay to open it up. So I think it's new engine time.

Dr. A also said doing this sort of major work is best done at home, rather than on the road. He recommended having it shipped (not towed) home. He pointed me to www.uship.com, where you say what you're shipping and where, and shipper put in bids. Their estimate was $624 to Sun City West, or $1171 to San Carlos, CA (my home). But it's possible that someone will bid less.

I checked with AAA, and I still have a 200 mile tow available this year, so I'm leaning towards towing it to Phoenox (actually Sun City West) and have the work done there. I'd be able to stay at my parents, and could even fly home and then back when it's ready. Even with 2 flights that would be cheaper than shipping it home.

So at this point, I'm looking for recommendations on a good mechanic in the Phoenix area, and a good source for a replacement Engine.

While I was typing the above, I saw 2004VannaWhite's response. Thanks! The mechanic here in Blythe gets their engines from Jaspers. The one a www.remanns.com has a 3 year warranty and is about the same price. I'll check Potomac German Auto.

Many thanks again to Doktor A for taking the time to return my call and give me the benefit of his experience.
 

lindenengineering

Well-known member
Here's few additional notes I can add.
Yes in all three engines I have fixed over the past years which failed due to timing chain failure were actually caused by gear disintegration.

In just about every case the valve to piston clash causes some contingent damage to a piston crown. Only one head needed to be totally replaced! The rest needing valve guides and a valve job to recover.
Suffice to state it (engine) does need to be torn down and the rods checked for bend/twist cause by valve impact, but in each case from my experience the rods in all three engine survived the incidence. Not at any time did I need to consider a replacement engine.
All the other damaged parts which took a hit, I used from other blown engine as used parts from these cannibalized units.
Dennis
Mechanic
 

khearn

2006 140" High Roof Cargo
Thanks for the reply, Dennis. I wish I was in Colorado or South Carolina. Or anywhere where there is an experienced Sprinter mechanic like you or Doktor A. But as it is, I'll probably be going to someone who has little or no Sprinter experience, and no Sprinter engines to cannibalize. I'll show them your post and see what they think.

I've got the feeling that my safest bet is to go with a rebuilt long block. It may be possible to rebuilt what I have, but it may be expensive to find out that it isn't with the resources available.

The shop I'm thinking of taking it to is http://www.automotivedynamics.com/. I don't know much about them, other than that they're AAA and Napa certified, so they should at least be decent.

I'm sure someone from Phoenix will come home from work and see this and know a great shop. But I've got to get the van towed up there this afternoon, so I can't wait too long.

BTW, when it died, I pulled the codes with a bluetooth OBD II scanner, and they were P0087 (low fuel pressure - probably a clogged fuel fiter) and P0340 (no signal from canshaft position sensor - also not too bad by itself). I searched for the combination of codes and didn't find anything, so I'm adding them here for anyone in the future who searches for the combo. For any future readers who found this thread that way, you have my condolences. Either code by itself isn't generally too bad, but in combination, they're trouble.

Thanks again,

Keith
 

lindenengineering

Well-known member
Well those two codes occurred because it stopped abruptly.
The cam is in sync with the crank--the cam stopped turning, but the crank didn't for a while--hence the code!

The fuel HP pump running off the chain abruptly stopped hence the fuel code!
AND
I bet if you went rummaging into the transmission there would be an input speed sensor fault because??? because ==wait for it!~!!:laughing:
Yes because the engine abruptly stopped! But you carried on coasting to the side of the road thinking WTF has happened now!:thinking:Yeh??

All simple stuff and I most likely have a block and piss-toons etc almost ready to build.

Have to go rummaging in the leather brass bound buggery box in the shop.
Let me know if you are interested.
Dennis
 

owner

Oz '03 316CDI LWB ex-Ambo Patient Transport
Here's few additional notes I can add.
Yes in all three engines I have fixed over the past years which failed due to timing chain failure were actually caused by gear disintegration.
Thanks for your insight as ever Dennis. Do you know the part number for these problematic sintered timing gears or some other way of telling which one you have? I'm in the process of rebuilding a 2006 OM612 as a replacement for the one my van, this is the engine that had the 2 cracked pistons. Id rather not risk putting in a failure prone cam gear if I can avoid it.
 

abittenbinder

Doktor A (864-623-9110)
Do you know the part number for these problematic sintered timing gears or some other way of telling which one you have? I'm in the process of rebuilding a 2006 OM612 as a replacement for the one my van, this is the engine that had the 2 cracked pistons. Id rather not risk putting in a failure prone cam gear if I can avoid it.
The failure rate of the sintered camshaft chain sprocket is relatively low. I have personally seen 8 in my last 16 years of Sprinter involvement.

MBenz factory remans have always had the backdated (earlier) stronger sprocket installed.

I have been using these backdated sprockets in all my remans for years.

The part# is 611 052 02 01.

These sprockets require a unique part# shorter bolt design due to the vacuum pump drive being integrated not stacked.

Doktor A
 

lindenengineering

Well-known member
Thanks for your insight as ever Dennis. Do you know the part number for these problematic sintered timing gears or some other way of telling which one you have? I'm in the process of rebuilding a 2006 OM612 as a replacement for the one my van, this is the engine that had the 2 cracked pistons. Id rather not risk putting in a failure prone cam gear if I can avoid it.
Well Andy B has answered your question.
I too have only seen three failures of this nature to date!
Dennis
 

khearn

2006 140" High Roof Cargo
Here's an update in case anyone is curious about how this is playing out.

I contacted Dennis, we played phone-tag for a few days, but finally managed to talk today. It sounds like he can probably repair it for a fair amount less than having a rebuilt engine installed here in the Phoenix area. Enough cheaper that it's worth paying to have the van shipped to his shop in Golden, Colorado. I know that it's possible that the damage is a lot worse than he's seen in similar failures, but I'm going to take the chance on it. I had a good feeling about Dennis already from what I've seen of him on this forum, and after speaking to him on the phone I have an even better feeling.

Oh, one thing I hadn't mentioned to Dennis when we spoke: When you try and start the engine, it spins at a high RPM, which seems like it should mean there isn't too much damage to the bottom end. When I first tried to start it, I thought it was just the starter I was hearing spinning, it's turning that fast and quiet. Maybe it doesn't mean anything, but I suspect if there was a lot of damage to the crankshaft or rods, it wouldn't spin so easily. Or maybe it means all the rods are snapped and only the crank is spinning... I'll find out after it gets up to Colorado.

So anyways, I've started an auction on uship.com to see if anyone can give me a good deal. If nothing else, They list a published rate of $1,380.51.

Then I've got to contact the mechanics who currently have the van and let them know what I plan on doing, and hopefully they'll be willing to keep the van for a few days and handle having the shipper pick it up, so I don't have to stay in Arizona and can head back home to California. But given the holiday weekend, I won't be able to talk to them until Tuesday morning.

I'll update when I know more.

Keith
 

lindenengineering

Well-known member
Quaote:-
Oh, one thing I hadn't mentioned to Dennis when we spoke: When you try and start the engine, it spins at a high RPM, which seems like it should mean there isn't too much damage to the bottom end. When I first tried to start it, I thought it was just the starter I was hearing spinning, it's turning that fast and quiet. Maybe it doesn't mean anything, but I suspect if there was a lot of damage to the crankshaft or rods, it wouldn't spin so easily. Or maybe it means all the rods are snapped and only the crank is spinning... I'll find out after it gets up to Colorado.

This is due to the open valves were whacked to one side as the upcoming piston(s) was making space for it to roll over TDC.
In some cases the 6 mm bolts holding the cam girdle frame sheer making clearance for the cams to lift off of their cylinder head mounts.
This engine series is a marvel of engineering excellence, gets my top marks every time I work on one ,
Dennis
 

khearn

2006 140" High Roof Cargo
The van was picked up by the shipper (TNT HOTSHOTS LLC) on Thursday, and was delivered to Linden Engineering today (Monday). That's as quick as I could ask for, given the weekend. After confirming with Dennis that the van was delivered and in good shape, I released the payment to the shipper.

One nice thing about uship.con is that they act as an escrow service. When I accepted the bid for the shipping, I paid the price (plus a service fee). They gave be a "payment code" at that time. Once the van was delivered, I could either go to uship.com and mark it as delivered, or I could just give the payment code to the shipper. They can then use it to collect their payment from uship.com. So I don't have to worry about some shipper I've never heard of running off with my money, and he doesn't have to worry about me not paying him after he delivers. It seems like a good system. Thanks go out to Dr. A for letting me know about it.

In case anyone is curious, I paid $1,145.00, plus a $85.99 service fee, for a total of $1,230.99 to have my Sprinter shipped from Sun City, AZ (just north of Phoenix) to Golden, CO (just west of Denver). I stopped the auction a little after 1pm on Tuesday, since I wanted to get things moving and get home. If I'd left it up for auction a while longer I might have gotten a better price. I started it on Saturday, and Monday was a holiday, so it was live for less than a full business day. It's very possible that other shippers may have bid if it had been up for more time while people were at work. But I needed to get home.

Anyways, I spoke to Dennis, and he'll take a look at it over the next few days and let me know how bad it was. I'll update when I know more, but so far things are going as well as could be expected (knock on wood).

Keith
 

WWILSON511

New member
Quaote:-
Oh, one thing I hadn't mentioned to Dennis when we spoke: When you try and start the engine, it spins at a high RPM, which seems like it should mean there isn't too much damage to the bottom end. When I first tried to start it, I thought it was just the starter I was hearing spinning, it's turning that fast and quiet. Maybe it doesn't mean anything, but I suspect if there was a lot of damage to the crankshaft or rods, it wouldn't spin so easily. Or maybe it means all the rods are snapped and only the crank is spinning... I'll find out after it gets up to Colorado.

This is due to the open valves were whacked to one side as the upcoming piston(s) was making space for it to roll over TDC.
In some cases the 6 mm bolts holding the cam girdle frame sheer making clearance for the cams to lift off of their cylinder head mounts.
This engine series is a marvel of engineering excellence, gets my top marks every time I work on one ,
Dennis

Hello, I just read this thread. I have the same issue. A 2006 Sprinter T1N, an Itasca Navion 22' 10' tall 10,000 lb class B motorhome. , I can see the broken sprocket. The dealer has confirmed it. The chain turns, it is not broken. Engine turns freely. Nothing has been disassembled. They don't want to work on it. No mechanics around here know much about them . Anyone in Portland /Seattle , you would vouch for ?

I have been reading as much as possible about it . I am willing to ship to Golden if you think you would be willing to work on this . Can you tell me what your past experience has been with this ? I know this is an old thread, things change etc.

My phone is 208 610 0004 text or call. email is great also, wwilson511@gmail.com

or would you prefer I try and call you ? What ever is best, I have a son in Ft Collins that could drive it back for me. It is currently in Kennewick Wa. 100 miles from Spokane Wa. I live in Sandpoint Idaho. 200 miles from Kennewick. I would ship via truck , Uship or FR8star.

thanks for your time and all that you contribute to the Spinter Forum. I do love that little Sprinter. We have taken it all over Mexico. As far south as the Belize border. It is the perfect vehicle for travel in Mexico. Bill Wilson
 

khearn

2006 140" High Roof Cargo
I replied to Bill by DM, but I figured I should reply here, for the benefit of anyone else who finds themselves in a similar situation. And I'm also a little annoyed at myself to discover that I never followed up when everything was done. Bad Keith! No biscuit!

So, to summarize, everything went just as expected. The van got hauled to Colorado, I flew home from Phoenix to California. Dennis was able to rebuild the engine as expected. I flew out to Golden and took an Uber to Dennis' shop. Unfortunately, the day I was able to fly out was a day they were closed, so I didn't have a chance to meet Dennis. But he left the van for me to pick up, and I drove it home from Colorado to California with no problems. And it's been running just fine ever since.

I don't remember exactly what it cost, but even with paying to haul it to Colorado and flying out to pick it up, it was significantly less than having someone with no Sprinter experience replace the entire engine.

So I can highly recommend giving Dennis a call if you have the same problem within reasonable hauling distance to Colorado. Be aware that there is no guarantee that your engine will be as lightly damaged as mine was, but it seems like a pretty decent chance, based on the other engines he's seen with this failure. But you could end up paying to have your van hauled up there and then discover you need a new engine anyways. That's the chance you take, but it seemed like a reasonable gamble to me, and it worked out great. It's a gamble I'd take again, if I ever had to.

My apologies for not posting this follow up 4 years ago. But I'm glad Bill was able to find it, and I hope things turn out as well for him as they did for me.

Keith Hearn
A satisfied Linden Engineering customer.
 

WWILSON511

New member
Hey Keith, I too feel bad about not posting this up for so long. I have the same engine issue you did . I talked to Dennis Linden on the phone because of this thread. He was nice enough to call me. What a knowledgable and interesting guy. I would love to ship my Sprinter , an Itasca Navion RV 22' 10,000 lb. to Dennis in Colorado. The issue is, it is in Kennewick Wa, USHIP only gave me one bid and it was close to $4000. Shipping is sky high right now. I live in Sandpoint , Id.
So although I'm not ruling shipping out, $4000 is already a big chunk of cash, before the work even begins.

I do like the idea of a quality mechanic working on it. Do it right the first time, kind of deal.

I'm following a few more local leads, then may give Dennis a call and see if he could fit me in. I appreciate everyone who has offered help and advice.

It has been a real kick in the teeth this cam sprocket issue.I realize it is kinda a fluke that it happened. No one has praised the T1N Sprinter more than me. I have driven 2 of these exact Navion's all over the US. and Mexico, as far south as the Yucatan. Both of my engines worked pretty well, until this issue. I did have some issues, but I also put a 100,000 miles plus on each engine . Now I basically need to spend $5-15k depending on what else was damaged inside the engine.

All my great mileage , all my savings in fuel is now going to be lost, negated by a major engine repair. And you can't tow as much as you can with a Ford E350/E450 van. I have 3 Ford vans, all, each have 200k plus miles on them, no engine or trans work on any of them. I just tow a lot for my business and pleasure trips. So there is that issue as well. Yes, I know the torque and drivability is great with the Sprinter. I am sold on them. BUT, I also use them for work, they need to get me to places on time. Being broke down in the out of the way places I travel , is expensive and nerve racking. It is not worth the problems for me anymore.

I will be getting this Sprinter fixed. I will use it for pleasure only. I will no longer depend on a Sprinter for work. They are not worth the aggravation to me anymore. Until Mercedes Benz gets more dealers with service, and more communities get Sprinter mechanics in them. I'm out. It is a pain in the ass to get them worked on in most areas. It is ridiculous for Benz to sell the hell out of these vans and yet offer such little factory support for them. YES, I'M TALKING ABOUT YOU, BEND OREGON MBENZ DEALER. You sell them but can't service them ? That is sad.

The Sprinter Forum is great, good people, willing to help each other. Hope everyone that has a Sprinter enjoys them and never has a breakdown that puts you out of commission.

Thanks again everyone, Bill
 

autostaretx

Erratic Member
If memory serves (and i haven't used any of these for service, but members have posted)
Near Seattle you have both Lynwood and Seattle MB, with Lynwood getting the most "happy" votes.
In Portland there's McCoy Freightliner (where i bought mine in 2005). Recent reviews haven't been *great*.
In Eugene there's MBeugene (.com) , which also has had decent forum reviews.

All will have "dealer" pricing, but all seem to have T1N capabilities.

There some 3rd party service sites in the Portland area that also have had decent member reviews
(plus one in Seattle and another in Woodinville)

--dick
 

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