PDA

View Full Version : Reaching Normal Temp...How Long Should it Take?


Gwilym
02-08-2017, 02:54 PM
My Sprinter, year 2000 208CDi, has always taken an age to warm up.

In fact in winter even with the Auxiliary Eberspacer which my sprinter has, it still takes ages to warm up. If I drive around town slowly on a really cold day it doesn't even reach normal temperature.

On the open roads it will fully warm up.

I had Pentagon Mercedes replace the Thermostat because of this but it didn't make any difference.

Any ideas? :thinking:

Cheyenne
02-08-2017, 05:05 PM
Hi Gwilym,

First question, are you absolutely certain your eSpar Aux heater is working?

My 2004 is the same 4 cylinder engine as yours and I can idle it on the drive with the eSpar running and have nice warm air within 2 to 3 minutes. If I set off down the road with 5 minutes I have to turn the heat down.

Check the eSpar exhaust in the LHF wheelarch for fumes/heat with the engine running and the eSpar turned on. It should be very obvious if it is functioning.

As for heat without the eSpar, then I think you will have to drive for a fair few miles to get any meaningful warmth from the heater.

My guess would be that your eSpar is not working :cry:

Keith.

ECU
02-08-2017, 05:10 PM
How is the aux water pump? A non working one will keep your internal heater cool.

Old Crows
02-08-2017, 05:11 PM
Diesels don't warm like a gas motor. They have large efficient cooling systems and at low RPM they will not generate a lot of heat...like at idle or low speed ops. But it should get up to near operating temp..eventually.

If it has a fan clutch...check.to see that it's operating correctly. It may be locked "ON" and that won't help.

If all is good, you might try running a lower gear to keep the revs up. That will get the engine hotter.

(I think ya''ll have been having really cold weather in Jolly Old. That does not help at all.....)

Gwilym
02-09-2017, 01:13 PM
Sorry I didn't make it clear but the eSpar is working I had Merc service it a few years ago. Engine does warm up a little quicker with eSpar switched on.

And by the way, as I understand it, my eSpar is an Auxiliary Water Heater. Unfortunately not one which is wired to run independently and warm cabin air with the engine off. I think you have to fit a separate control unit to get the eSpar working independently of the engine?

It isn't so much the lack of cabin hot air that I miss on short winter journeys, it is the actual engine temperature which i find odd not warming up fully when I am tootling around slowly on town roads, in the winter.

Traffic congestion in UK towns is horrendous!

I will check the cooling fan clutch...should it be completely off, i.e. not spinning, until the engine warms up?

Also, I didn't realise there was an 'Aux water pump'. Just assumed the main pump put water through the eSpar, so I will check.

Maybe this is just normal for a diesel Sprinter?

Cheyenne
02-09-2017, 01:38 PM
Hi again Gwilym,

Yes I agree about traffic in the UK, it's getting dire at the best of times!

The Aux water pump is located on the bulkhead near the battery. With engine running feel for vibrations to check it is running. If in doubt check for voltage at plug or wire directly to 12 V to test.

With your engine idling turn on your eSpar and then go and listen under bonnet for the 'Jet engine' noise and feel the steel water lines running from the eSpar up the inner wing behind the battery. Within a couple of minutes one pipe should get too hot to hold. If the eSpar runs for a couple of minutes then shuts down before you can feel heat in the pipes then it is a fair bet your Aux water pump is not running and the eSpar is going into 'Overheat' shutdown.

HTH.
Keith.

Aqua Puttana
02-09-2017, 02:26 PM
.... I think you have to fit a separate control unit to get the eSpar working independently of the engine?

...
Assuming that you have the REST feature, there is a rather simple circuit to allow engine pre-heat.

https://sprinter-source.com/forum/showthread.php?t=36797

This temperature thread is for the 5 cylinder engine, but should be similar for other Mercedes diesels.

T1N Engine Temperature Normal High Low
https://sprinter-source.com/forum/showthread.php?t=47965


Maybe this is just normal for a diesel Sprinter?
No. Not by the symptoms you describe.

vic

Gwilym
02-09-2017, 10:36 PM
Don't think I have the REST feature? The eSpar just has one button, on and off. Previous owner assumed it was for air con which was not working!

Thanks for info about how to Check aux pump by feeling water pipe. I definitely get the jet engine noise because I remember, now you mention it, there is a jet engine sound which runs for a while after I stop...I always guessed it was burning off excess fuel like a boat motor?

Thanks for all the comments hopefully I will get time tomorrow or over the weekend to go over everything mentioned.:thumbup:

cahaak
02-10-2017, 12:52 AM
If the engine is running, it doesn't matter if the Aux pump is working or not because the regular water pump will circulate plenty of fluid. If you can't reach temp in cold weather, block the radiator, it does help. At best, it is hard to get above about 185 F or 85C at low operating speeds in the winter.

Chris

misterbond10
02-10-2017, 01:09 AM
Have a radiator air dam helps a lot for me. Heats up fasters, retains heat longer, heck I would even lose heat once it was fully warm if it was about 20F or below going down the highway with the heater blasting. I have no aux heater btw. I sell them on eBay http://www.ebay.com/itm/MERCEDES-BENZ-DODGE-FREIGHTLINER-SPRINTER-2500-3500-WINTER-RADIATOR-AIR-COVER-/152429804790?ssPageName=STRK:MESE:IT

Gwilym
02-10-2017, 01:58 PM
The more anecdotal evidence I am hearing, here, makes me think my Sprinter cooling system is not faulty.

It is about 3c here and I have just been for a drive:

She very slowly warmed up to about 80 while driving at speeds up to 40 mph. If I stop and let the van idle the temp slowly drops to about 50 then if I switch the jet engine on...the eSpar....it slowly comes back up to nearly 80.

The eSpar pipes are nice and hot, I checked them as advised above. Are you sure the eSpar has an Aux pump I couldn't see one?

The fan keeps running all the time but I think this is normal isn't it? Doesn't it kick in at a higher rate when the engine gets hot like my old Merc 190?

:clapping::clapping::clapping: I haven't seen anything like mrbond10's radiator jacket since my dad's air cooled Citroens in the 60's & 70's....Wonderful cars, After he owned a water cooled DS he bought an Ami 6, Ami 8, GS and, of course, he had a few 2CV's! He was a WW2 pilot :bow: and loved those air cooled cars and I remember him putting the radiator jackets on in the winter!

Oh, and to correct something I said earlier which was wrong, I do actually get warm cabin air pretty much from the get go. Even when the temp needle hasn't started to show warming.

misterbond10
02-11-2017, 10:09 PM
the electric fan is running? is your a/c system on? that doesn't sound normal unless a/c is on, maybe others can chime in

Cheyenne
02-11-2017, 10:19 PM
Are you sure the eSpar has an Aux pump I couldn't see one?



Hi Gwilym,

If you have a water pump it will be mounted directly to the bulkhead just to the left of the battery below the heater intake duct. Follow the steel lines from the eSpar heater up the inner wing, round behind the battery and heater duct and you should arrive at the pump.

If you still can't find it I'll try and find a photo.

Keith.

Gwilym
02-12-2017, 05:43 PM
the electric fan is running? is your a/c system on? that doesn't sound normal unless a/c is on, maybe others can chime in

I don't have a/c.

The fan is running all of the time, isn't this normal for my year 2000(208CDi)?

It is driven constantly by the poly v belt and there is a booster if temp gets high....I think so anyway. I'm not a mechanic. Perhaps newer models don't work the same way as a year 2000 one?:idunno:

Gwilym
02-12-2017, 05:53 PM
Hi Gwilym,

If you have a water pump it will be mounted directly to the bulkhead just to the left of the battery below the heater intake duct. Follow the steel lines from the eSpar heater up the inner wing, round behind the battery and heater duct and you should arrive at the pump.

If you still can't find it I'll try and find a photo.

Keith.

Sorry Keith I can't find it and there is no info in my operation manual nor my repair manual, a photo would be very helpful:clapping:

Is it possible that, since my eSpar is purely to boost water temp and only Works with the engine running, it does not have an aux pump?:hmmm:

German manufacturers are Devils for thinking up as many conceivable ways as possible to get money for extras! And my eSpar only has an on off switch, not a timer/programmable control panel.

Cheyenne
02-12-2017, 06:59 PM
Hi Gwilym,

Hmmm, maybe a 2000 208CDi doesn't have one after all.

Here is an earlier post describing replacing the pump with a couple of photos.

https://sprinter-source.com/forum/showthread.php?t=13404&highlight=aux+water+pump

Keith.

Aqua Puttana
02-12-2017, 09:19 PM
...

German manufacturers are Devils for thinking up as many conceivable ways as possible to get money for extras! And my eSpar only has an on off switch, not a timer/programmable control panel.
My GUESS is that all NAS aka NAFTA OM647 engines with an EGR have the aux electric coolant pump. The inlet of the pump is connected directly to the EGR coolant circuit pipe.

Engines without a water circuit type EGR valve (NAS aka NAFTA OM612 and other Euro models) may or may not have the aux pump depending upon what options are ordered.

I have not researched the differences to confirm.

vic

calbiker
02-12-2017, 10:20 PM
It takes my '06 3500 T1N about 6 min to get coolant to 180 F.
It takes about 25 min to get transmission to 180F.

Aqua Puttana
02-12-2017, 10:45 PM
It takes my '06 3500 T1N about 6 min to get coolant to 180 F.
It takes about 25 min to get transmission to 180F.
Out of curiosity...

Why did the coolant start out close to 10F degrees higher than the air intake temperature?

Was the engine slightly warm?

vic

calbiker
02-12-2017, 11:36 PM
Not sure, my best guess is the air intake temp is slightly too low. It shouldn't go below ambient, but it does in the graph. Perhaps there's a 5 to 10 deg offset error (maybe 218 should be 228 in the equation below). I measured sensor voltage and then converted voltage into temperature.

My conversions:

Tair_in = 218 - 40 * V
Tamb = 150 - 33.3 * V
Tcool = 247 - 45.6 * V
Tfuel = 289 - 60 * V
Ttrans = 254.7 * V - 244

Now that you brought it up, can you double check those for me???

Aqua Puttana
02-13-2017, 01:01 AM
Not sure, my best guess is the air intake temp is slightly too low. It shouldn't go below ambient, but it does in the graph. Perhaps there's a 5 to 10 deg offset error (maybe 218 should be 228 in the equation below). I measured sensor voltage and then converted voltage into temperature.

My conversions:

Tair_in = 218 - 40 * V
Tamb = 150 - 33.3 * V
Tcool = 247 - 45.6 * V
Tfuel = 289 - 60 * V
Ttrans = 254.7 * V - 244
Thanks.

Now that you brought it up, can you double check those for me???
Nope... and you of all people know that I'm a generalist.

I was using the data presented.

The coolant, transmission, and fuel temperatures were all in the same range at the start of the graph.

Ambient was slightly lower.

Air intake was lower by a bit.

Of course it could be range and calibration issues, but my question was reasonable.

Dismiss it if you wish.

vic

Gwilym
02-14-2017, 04:14 PM
Hi Gwilym,

Hmmm, maybe a 2000 208CDi doesn't have one after all.

Here is an earlier post describing replacing the pump with a couple of photos.

https://sprinter-source.com/forum/showthread.php?t=13404&highlight=aux+water+pump

Keith.

Thanks Keith that is a super useful Thread!...I did find that pump following your instructions but didn't think it looked like a water pump, as far as my limited experience goes, and when I touched it wasn't vibrating...But there are some comments on the other thread you directed me to about the temperature above which it switches off or something.

When I have time I will further study that other thread. Not being an engineer or mechanic the info. is a little dense for me to take on board straight away!

ECU
02-14-2017, 11:33 PM
One other though. . . The resovour full sensor could be bad and not goving low level warning. Are you sure you are full of coolant?

Parky650s
02-16-2017, 08:59 PM
Hi,I live in Britain.North Yorkshire.The espar is a secondary heater in mine with the only purpose of providing heat to a secondary matrix(radiator)in the heater box.This enables the interior of the van to warm up faster while the engine gets hot.The espar has no effect on engine temps,only cabin temps.
Once the engine is warm I switch off the espar.My van is now insulated as I'm converting it to a campervan.Before Insulation it needed the espar as well as the engine heat to keep warm because the metal body lost it very quickly.My engine runs at just under 80 degrees C in winter.I never have a problem.

Parky650s
02-16-2017, 09:06 PM
Lower revs don't burn as much fuel so less wasted heat from the engine to transfer into the cooling system so it will run cooler.Sounds to me like its behaving normally for cold wet Britain.

Aqua Puttana
02-16-2017, 11:52 PM
I can't say whether your Sprinter operation is normal or not as to temperature.

Given the information in your first post it sounded like it may not be warming as I would expect.

My Sprinter, year 2000 208CDi, has always taken an age to warm up.

In fact in winter even with the Auxiliary Eberspacer which my sprinter has, it still takes ages to warm up. If I drive around town slowly on a really cold day it doesn't even reach normal temperature.

On the open roads it will fully warm up.

I had Pentagon Mercedes replace the Thermostat because of this but it didn't make any difference.

Any ideas? :thinking:

Often with these threads the information trickles out.

Reviewing the posts in this thread and some of the links that were suggested should give enough information for an owner to make an assessment of their particular situation.

:cheers: vic

Gwilym
02-18-2017, 10:46 AM
One other though. . . The resovour full sensor could be bad and not goving low level warning. Are you sure you are full of coolant?

Yes.

In fact the coolant has always gone down very slowly with use and Merc never found out why, when I was servicing it with them, so I just live with it and constantly check the level.

For some reason Merc were always fixated on replacing one jubilee type ring...The easiest thing to get at...Even after I told them more than once they'd already replaced it and I was perfectly capable of telling if coolant was leaking from it anyway!:crazy:

Plus the low warning light is functioning correctly.

Gwilym
02-18-2017, 10:52 AM
Hi,I live in Britain.North Yorkshire.The espar is a secondary heater in mine with the only purpose of providing heat to a secondary matrix(radiator)in the heater box.This enables the interior of the van to warm up faster while the engine gets hot.The espar has no effect on engine temps,only cabin temps.
Once the engine is warm I switch off the espar.My van is now insulated as I'm converting it to a campervan.Before Insulation it needed the espar as well as the engine heat to keep warm because the metal body lost it very quickly.My engine runs at just under 80 degrees C in winter.I never have a problem.

Interesting. If that is the case I have miss-understood what the eSpar does! I have read the manuals so, if you are right, they must be badly written.:professor:

I will re-read them over the weekend, maybe I am just daft!:smilewink:

Cheyenne
02-18-2017, 11:41 AM
Hi Gwilym,

The 'Standard' fit eSpar heater is located below the left hand headlight and is connected to the engine cooling circuit by two steel pipes running up the inner wing behind the battery and then on to the electric pump you have previously found.

You can check if you have this as a factory fit by looking on your Datacard (MB build spec) for "HZ9 HEATER BOOSTER, DIESEL". If you do not have your Datacard send a PM to user 'Sailquik' and ask him to email it to you (he will need an email address as he cannot send it by PM).

Parky650s,

It sounds like you have a 'non-standard' fit eSpar or possibly a different build option. Where is your eSpar heater mounted? And also what year of Sprinter do you have please?

Cheers,
Keith.

Gwilym
02-19-2017, 10:41 AM
Yes it's where you say. Behind left headlight. Makes all the right noises and the exhaust in wheel arch signifies correct function too. I have established this thanks to your and others advice in this thread.

What is puzzling right now is two, apparently, contradicting points made by seperate members regarding my eSpar.

One has said that if my eSpar Aux pump is not working then the eSpar will still receive coolant because the regular coolant pump will be supplying it. If my Aux pump is not working, which I still need to establish, this makes sense because my eSpar is working. It doesn't shut down for lack of circulation and the metal pipes running up the inner wing heat up. Davisdave also said this on the other thread about aux pump:

"I wonder about the real importance of the electric coolant pump. Many people have been running for years with the pump not working because they didnt even know. With the engine running, there is enough coolant flow without the pump to keep the Espar from shutting down due to over temp.."

Then another member, in this thread, said that the eSpar will only heat cabin air and not the engine...Surely if the regular water pump is supplying the eSpar then that water is passing through the engine as well as eSpar and so to a degree the eSpar will be boosting the engine coolant temp, i.e. heating the engine to a degree, though not the radiator because the thermostat will be closed prior to warming up.:idunno:

As a non-mechanic, am I missing something obvious or do these two points made truly contradict one another?:thinking:

I will be re-reading the other thread, on the Aux Pump, which Cheyenne/Keith pointed me to. To see if I can fully fathom whether or not my Aux pump is running. I have definitely heard some 'click, click, click...ing' when eSpar switched on but when I touch the aux pump there is no vibration which someone said I should feel?

....UPDATE. I have studied all of the threads on the Aux Electric Coolant Pump and from reading those it would clearly be a miracle if mine were still working because these units, clearly, do not last!

I bought the Sprinter 7 years ago and have pushed the mileage from 77,000m to 131,000m. Previous owner would not have replaced Aux Pump because he didn't even know there was an eSpar and he wasn't the type to spend money. So mine must be bust!

Aqua Puttana
02-19-2017, 11:00 AM
...

One has said that if my eSpar Aux pump is not working then the eSpar will still receive coolant because the regular coolant pump will be supplying it. ...

Correct.

...Then another member said that the eSpar will only heat cabin air and not the engine...
Could be correct.

There are Espar coolant heaters and air heaters. An Espar D2 air heater will only warm the cabin air.

...Surely if the regular water pump is supplying the eSpar then that water is passing through the engine, though not the radiator because the thermostat will be closed prior to warming up.:idunno:

...
In OEM configuration the coolant heated by the Espar first goes to the heater core (matrix) and then continues around to the engine block. Thermostat operation shouldn't negatively affect that flow.

vic