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View Full Version : No Start: Key Turns, but only 'one-click' under dash relay M


benpegg
03-06-2016, 11:29 PM
Hi All,
2007 NCV3 Dodge Sprinter
180a alternator
Factory installed Auxiliary battery.
2x 6 month Exide AGM Batteries.
Recent 25,000 mile trip FL to NM and back with no problems.

Ultra gage CODES:
U0101 –Lost Communication with TCM
U0423 – Invalid Data Reiceved From Instrument Panel Cluster Control Module
U0416 – Invalid Data Received From Vehicle Dynamics Control Module
U0103 – Lost Communication With Shift Control Module “A”
U110B - Lost Engine Collant Message


No start condition:
Insert key and wait for glow plug light to shut off.
Turn key to on position:
Result:
1-click from the Motor relay under the dash. Car won’t start.

Diagnostics:
Reset ECM disconecting negative battery terminal for 30 minutes until the clock reset.

Normal Battery voltage 12.8v
Normal Voltage drop to 11.8-12.6 during glowplugs and start procedure.
<.02 voltage drops across wires to starter, alternator ETC.

TCM cable housing bone dry at both ends (serviced with electronics cleaner and reattathced. (the transmission was serviced 2-years ago and the cable housing was replaced then)

Engine Ground Cable caked with dirt corrotion and grime. Cable removed, and treated with electronics cleaner and brushed to sparkle again; then reinstalled.

Y-Cable inspection, and and inspected for chaefing: no corossion or visible wear.

Last Trip History & additional notes:
Last month I went on a short trip and had an overheating scare 90 miles out. To be Safe I called a tow truck and a flatbed took me home. (It turned out that the Engine Coolant temperature sensorr, located under the turbo inlet pipe top Driver side of the motor was physically broken, a previous owner zip tied back together, most likely after trying to remove it, it was strongly adhered with corrosion).

That evening when the tow truck dropped me off, we started the van and parked it with no problems.

Several days later I could not successfully start the van.

NOTES:
Before the tow truck arrived that evening, I read that there was a relationship to the coolant sensor and the washer fluid sensor, so I toppedoff the washer fluid to see if it would effect the overheating alarm. It did effect the coolant temperature light, but A subsequent leak in the resiviour Filled the Frame with muck and grime over the following week and severely corroded the engine/frame ground connection preceding this no-start problem (as I mentioned above, this has been scrubbed spotless, and reinstalled).

When the Driver unhooked the van, a loud pop was heard when he disengaged theparking gear before backing it down. (again it did start successfully and went changed gears successfully that night during parking procedure).

During a trip a month earlier, I stalled at a toll both and noticed that when Pressed the fuse box with my foot it started itself back up again.
(this coorelates with similar experiences found in the thread). I’m not sure if that would be consistent with engine codes above or how to more thouroly test the fuse box itself (perhaps someone has a good test for me)

I have been following the extensive guide below:

https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/View-Navion/files/Chassis%20Service%20Tips/

As well as consulting threads with strong similarities such as:

http://sprinter-source.com/forum/showthread.php?t=43936

http://sprinter-source.com/forum/showthread.php?p=413582

where Smiller Said:
“Do you hear a relay click when you turn the key to the start position? If so, when you try to start again (without turning the key off) does it click again or do you hear nothing on subsequent attempts?”


^ I’d love to know what he where that would have gone, but in that thread something else turned out to fix the issue before that was answered.

Thank You,
Ben

showkey
03-07-2016, 01:17 AM
Has the starter and or starter solenoid been tested......either bench tested or the solenoid jumped in place ?

Has the voltage been tested at the solenoid signal wire while key is turned to the start position ?

benpegg
03-07-2016, 01:29 AM
Has the starter and or starter solenoid been tested......either bench tested or the solenoid jumped in place ?

Has the voltage been tested at the solenoid signal wire while key is turned to the start position ?

I forgot to mention that. Yes, it has been tested. I should also note: I tried to jump to the ignition & starter wire, with no luck. (Though, Might be worth another try jumping, with the other electrical services I've done since that attempt).

Additional Note: I noticed when I remove the #23 25amp fuse and installed a new one— I was curious to see if the start condition would change when it was fuseless: i.e. would I even get "one-click" from relay M? I confirm that it is exactly the same whether that fuse is in or not. Maybe that adds up to someone as to where the issue is somewhere between Point A & Z.

smiller
03-07-2016, 03:09 AM
Have any fault codes come back since you reset them? Since the codes seem spurious (multiple and unrelated) I would suspect a voltage problem. The physical appearance of the Y cable doesn't always mean much and if you have the original unit on a 2007 I'd replace it regardless. Another known problem is the ground cable between the engine and frame (on the driver's side), definitely remove this and clean the connections. Those two steps should be taken before you go further.


(BTW I commend you on the completeness of your description! Many such posts start with something like 'My Sprinter won't start, anyone know why?' and the poster then wonders why he doesn't get much of a response ;)

.

benpegg
03-07-2016, 04:27 AM
Have any fault codes come back since you reset them?

Good Question, I cleared them, though they did register as *permanent codes* so I'm thinking of attempting some of the other mentioned ECM resets in the Yahoo groups guide. After my code checker cleared them All of them did return again. Thanks.

Cheyenne
03-07-2016, 06:27 AM
Engine Ground Cable caked with dirt corrotion and grime. Cable removed, and treated with electronics cleaner and brushed to sparkle again; then reinstalled.

... and severely corroded the engine/frame ground connection preceding this no-start problem (as I mentioned above, this has been scrubbed spotless, and reinstalled).

Ben

If your ground lead was that badly corroded then I think it is well past its sell by date and is due for replacement. The internal braids of the lead corrode as well as the visible ends and can result in high resistance and hence high voltage drop.

Test this out by using a single jumper cable connected from the starter battery negative terminal to a good ground point directly on the engine (like a lifting eye). If this fixes things then you definitely need to replace your ground lead.

Keith.

showkey
03-07-2016, 12:38 PM
I forgot to mention that. Yes, it has been tested. I should also note: I tried to jump to the ignition & starter wire, with no luck. (Though, Might be worth another try jumping, with the other electrical services I've done since that attempt).

Additional Note: I noticed when I remove the #23 25amp fuse and installed a new one— I was curious to see if the start condition would change when it was fuseless: i.e. would I even get "one-click" from relay M? I confirm that it is exactly the same whether that fuse is in or not. Maybe that adds up to someone as to where the issue is somewhere between Point A & Z.


To confirm.........

The problem is no cranking of the engine( engine does not turn over) ......opposed to it cranks but does not start.

The starter and solenoid ........passed the test, works and cranks the engine when jumped ?

Is there voltage at the solenoid signal wire while turning the key to to start ?

smiller
03-07-2016, 02:43 PM
Sorry, I missed that you cleaned the ground cable in the OP but I'd do as Keith suggested above and verify that you have a good ground connection from engine to chassis.

Also you'll need to sort out the source of the codes... if there is no communication with the TCM or shift selector then the ECM will not authorize the start and the engine won't crank. If you are clearing the codes but the same ones keep returning you need to figure out why.

benpegg
03-07-2016, 10:59 PM
To confirm.........

The problem is no cranking of the engine( engine does not turn over) ......opposed to it cranks but does not start.

The starter and solenoid ........passed the test, works and cranks the engine when jumped ?

Is there voltage at the solenoid signal wire while turning the key to to start ?

Yes, no crank or start. If I advance from the run/on position to the start position, relay M clicks once, and the spring returns the key to the on position(that start relay click is the only audible clue that occurs, that click occurs regardless of whether starter fuse #23 is in or out).
At that point, there are NO subsequent clicks from any relays when the key is turned to the start position again after the first attempt. In order for relay M to click again the key must be turned to the off position, removed, and reinserted— starting over.

There is signal at the small purple wire during a key turn, and the main wire bundle on the post. The other, inner lug: closest to the starter's housing, does not register voltage. Does anyone know the voltage I should read on the purple wire?

I was unable to jump the starter bridging the purple and main wire bundles.

benpegg
03-07-2016, 11:10 PM
Sorry, I missed that you cleaned the ground cable in the OP but I'd do as Keith suggested above and verify that you have a good ground connection from engine to chassis.

Also you'll need to sort out the source of the codes... if there is no communication with the TCM or shift selector then the ECM will not authorize the start and the engine won't crank. If you are clearing the codes but the same ones keep returning you need to figure out why.

I completely agree! This Van has always started instantly and quickly. With the gauge attached I regularly monitor codes. These only appeared along with this 'no start' condition. Things that occurred preceding were- battery drain, the wiper fluid leaked to cover the ground in muck, and it rained heavily that weak.

It seems odd to me that these TCM codes are coming up when I can change gears and see them displayed on the dash. Also the Instrument panel code: nothing appears abnormal about the way information is displayed on the panel. It is full and bright and all information seems available.

Does anyone suggest another method of clearing them or the ECM for a 2007? I have not tried touching negative and positive terminals with the batteries unplugged as suggested in the yahoo groups article.

smiller
03-08-2016, 12:01 AM
A standard OBDII reader probably won't touch codes in external modules, nor will removing power from the ECU, and also generic scanners may or may not be accurate in situations such as this and can be misleading. To go any further you would likely need a scan tool capable of handling proprietary MB codes and all modules, the Autel MD802 is one of the more cost-effective examples at about $250. The MD802 would probably reset the codes (while also giving you a lot more information on your situation, for instance it will allow you to interrogate the TCM, gear selector, key switch, and other modules) so maybe a worthwhile investment at this point. There are some codes that even require a factory or other advanced tool to reset but hopefully yours aren't that deep. Another option is to have a dealer look at it but I could understand why you might want that to be a last re$ort.

.

moondawg14
03-08-2016, 02:05 PM
A standard OBDII reader probably won't touch codes in external modules, nor will removing power from the ECU, and also generic scanners may or may not be accurate in situations such as this and can be misleading. To go any further you would likely need a scan tool capable of handling proprietary MB codes and all modules, the Autel MD802 is one of the more cost-effective examples at about $250. The MD802 would probably reset the codes (while also giving you a lot more information on your situation, for instance it will allow you to interrogate the TCM, gear selector, key switch, and other modules) so maybe a worthwhile investment at this point. There are some codes that even require a factory or other advanced tool to reset but hopefully yours aren't that deep. Another option is to have a dealer look at it but I could understand why you might want that to be a last re$ort.

.

You need to make sure to get MD802 "All Systems" and not "4 systems" it's not always obvious which version people are selling.

With dealers charging $120 just for a scan... you can "make your money back" pretty quick.

I've used my MD802 to scan and clear codes on many modules in both of my current cars. It's a good value.

benpegg
03-09-2016, 09:53 PM
You need to make sure to get MD802 "All Systems" and not "4 systems" it's not always obvious which version people are selling.

With dealers charging $120 just for a scan... you can "make your money back" pretty quick.

I've used my MD802 to scan and clear codes on many modules in both of my current cars. It's a good value.

I will Get this all systems scan tool, and then I will report back on the changes, Improvements or lack there of. It sounds like having one of these tools will be very useful again and again.

Thank you all.

mikesprints
03-10-2016, 12:54 AM
Hi All,
2007 NCV3 Dodge Sprinter
180a alternator
Factory installed Auxiliary battery.
2x 6 month Exide AGM Batteries.
Recent 25,000 mile trip FL to NM and back with no problems.

Ultra gage CODES:
U0101 –Lost Communication with TCM
U0423 – Invalid Data Reiceved From Instrument Panel Cluster Control Module
U0416 – Invalid Data Received From Vehicle Dynamics Control Module
U0103 – Lost Communication With Shift Control Module “A”
U110B - Lost Engine Collant Message


No start condition:
Insert key and wait for glow plug light to shut off.
Turn key to on position:
Result:
1-click from the Motor relay under the dash. Car won’t start.

Diagnostics:
Reset ECM disconecting negative battery terminal for 30 minutes until the clock reset.

Normal Battery voltage 12.8v
Normal Voltage drop to 11.8-12.6 during glowplugs and start procedure.
<.02 voltage drops across wires to starter, alternator ETC.

TCM cable housing bone dry at both ends (serviced with electronics cleaner and reattathced. (the transmission was serviced 2-years ago and the cable housing was replaced then)

Engine Ground Cable caked with dirt corrotion and grime. Cable removed, and treated with electronics cleaner and brushed to sparkle again; then reinstalled…………...

hank You,
Ben

Hey Ben. Seems to me your voltage is a little low if not definitely on the border.

It's very hard to see if the Y cable is damaged at the shunt where installed as it goes bad right under the engine saddled up on the crossmember. Are you in a coastal region of Florida? I'd be very surprised if the OEM Y cable is still up to snuff.

My new to me '07 Y cable proved to be faulty on my maiden voyage home from a fly and drive. Only 49k miles and 2 and half years old when this occurred. Props to the Dodge Dealer in Effingham IL. for their friendly service. The tech found it in about 20 minutes. They couldn't get one till next day so I Macguyvered it in a Wal - Mart parking lot. Pulled the loom clips loose on crossmember. Gutted cable between crimped ends with razor, exposed cable was green and white to the core strands. Worked stranded wires to expose inner layers and sprayed with copious amounts of Napa battery terminal cleaner. Wiped down with napkins courtesy of Subway and rewrapped with e-tape. Got me home where was replaced asap.

I gather the batteries are recent replaced 6 months ago? Sometimes "new" batteries don't get rotated in stock and sit idle without a good charge before sold, losing their capacity. You are checking the one under the floor to be sure? Load tested? The thread I linked below mentions load testing may not prove much either. I had start issues a couple of years later and battery showed ok, I replaced since I had it out any way and voila! Granted it was 4-5 yrs old then.

Curious what voltage reading you get at the alternator when off? Consensus seems to dictate anything more than .2 -.5 v drop points to cable.

This thread is loaded with good info; Note the comments by Dennis of Linden engineering. Good luck.
http://sprinter-source.com/forum/showthread.php?t=10155&highlight=normal+voltage+battery

smiller
03-10-2016, 01:25 AM
IMO it would not be overboard to just replace the Y cable outright (vs bothering with testing) on a 2007 NCV3 given that the failure rate is so high (meaning even if it hasn't failed yet it probably will) and the part is so relatively inexpensive and easy to swap. The current-version cable is also improved over the original (my replacement had a heavier swaged terminal at the starter connection, which was where my original failed.)

benpegg
03-11-2016, 12:02 AM
Hey Ben. Seems to me your voltage is a little low if not definitely on the border.

It's very hard to see if the Y cable is damaged at the shunt where installed as it goes bad right under the engine saddled up on the crossmember. Are you in a coastal region of Florida? I'd be very surprised if the OEM Y cable is still up to snuff.

I gather the batteries are recent replaced 6 months ago? Sometimes "new" batteries don't get rotated in stock and sit idle without a good charge before sold, losing their capacity. You are checking the one under the floor to be sure? Load tested? The thread I linked below mentions load testing may not prove much either. I had start issues a couple of years later and battery showed ok, I replaced since I had it out any way and voila! Granted it was 4-5 yrs old then.

Curious what voltage reading you get at the alternator when off? Consensus seems to dictate anything more than .2 -.5 v drop points to cable.

This thread is loaded with good info; Note the comments by Dennis of Linden engineering. Good luck.
http://sprinter-source.com/forum/showthread.php?t=10155&highlight=normal+voltage+battery

Thanks MikeSprints: I physically inspected the Y-cable again today, but I didn't have my Voltmeter with me. Before I toss it as far away from the Sprinter as possible for a new one— *something is odd about it: It looks cleaner than some of the other connecting wire's I've cleaned and serviced. Does the Y-cable have a tag on it somewhere? Maybe I can identify the revision number if it's been replaced before. Being that it's failure is so typical, If it's the original cable, I will replace it regardless of what I measure. Before I do that. I'll top of the batteries with the float charger / load tester (save-a-battery) and recheck the measurements incase I missed something the first time around. Thanks for sharing!

mikesprints
03-11-2016, 12:21 AM
Yes there's a tag somewhere but I don't recall where. Theres a couple of clips that hold the cable to that cross member under engine as I recall. Push them out from the back side or tug, this will give you some slack for the cable. Pull down that horizontal section and pull the cable out of the split loom tubing and put your eyes it. You may notice it looks swollen. Others have reported this section can get hot enough to burn you if the key has been on or after cranking.

smiller
03-11-2016, 12:29 AM
FWIW in my case the area around the fusible link was OK (at least visibly) but there was clear heat damage to the insulation at the starter terminal connection (junction of the 'Y'). Symptom was bus voltage about 0.5 volts low.

benpegg
03-19-2016, 05:25 PM
A standard OBDII reader probably won't touch codes in external modules, nor will removing power from the ECU, ... The MD802 would probably reset the codes (while also giving you a lot more information on your situation, for instance it will allow you to interrogate the TCM, gear selector, key switch, and other modules) ... Another option is to have a dealer look at it but I could understand why you might want that to be a last re$ort.

.

Thanks again to everyone. I wanted to follow up now that I've recieved the Autel MD802. I was able to get some different codes.

EZS - ignition switch fault (erased)

codes that I COULDN'T Erase:

912B - A1 (Instrument cluster) - Error during initializing.

9109 Engine CAN bus - no CAN message from control unit Engine. ( AdBlue)
*a note on this one: I don't have DEF Blue not sure about this one)

U0423 Invalid Data Received From Instrument Panel Cluster Control Module.

U0101 - Lost communication with TCM (still active.)

My more extensive measurements of voltage will be coming soon when the weather permits.

benpegg
03-19-2016, 05:28 PM
9304 Component A32/1 m2 ( Rear heater water valve motor) is blocked or has reversed polarity or has open circuit.
one last code ^

mikesprints
03-19-2016, 05:34 PM
So what was the voltage thru the alternator (ignition off) and whats the ohms thru same point? Never heard back on that.

Then check the volts and ohms at the y connection down by the ground, just behind there you can get to the y positive as I recall.

benpegg
03-19-2016, 09:03 PM
So what was the voltage thru the alternator (ignition off) and whats the ohms thru same point? Never heard back on that.

Then check the volts and ohms at the y connection down by the ground, just behind there you can get to the y positive as I recall.

Bear in mind I lost voltage during all these tests looking for drops (I started at 12.63) and the van had been off the float charger for 1 week, it's parked in a shared lot. until I can get it hooked back up on the float.
Here's what I got

At Rest the voltage is:
Alt 12.55
Bat 12.55
Starter 12.56
Behind ground 12.56

Pre-start (glow plug light)
Alt= 12.36
Bat =12.37
Start = 12.36
Behind ground Y 12.36

having a friend hold it in the start position:
Alt 12.16
Bat 12.16
Starter: 12.11
Solenoid 11.16
Purple wore 11.17

ofcourse this isn't looking good for the starter solenoid/ignition wire?
I couldn't get an ohm reading today I'm going to hook things back up on the float
And retest when it's charged up. Maybe these discrepancies will be illuminating to those more experienced with these diagnostics.

mikesprints
03-19-2016, 10:15 PM
Seems your voltage is lower than the last time. Your readings are very close I'm doubting y cable.

Im not sure about drop at solenoid. Never checked mine before. WARRANTS more looking into for sure!

At rest, so you checked when battery sat for an hour?

IIRC it took closer to 13 v to crank… :thinking:

The Autotel from many seems to spit out some relevant codes but the No Can DEF is ??? Perhaps some reading in the Autotel threads might bear some info...

showkey
03-19-2016, 11:26 PM
Given those voltage readings.......I would remove the starter and bench test it.
An alternative test would be .........apply 12 volts to the solenoid and to see if the starter cranks the engine.

Intermittent and permanent solenoid and or starter failure have been common problem.
If the starter cranks after the testing ........immediately reconnect the solenoid wire and try the key to see if cranking has returned.