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FFR5445
05-17-2015, 05:31 PM
I noticed a diesel smell in the cabin while driving and also a smell after parking it in the garage. It had been probably 10k miles since I last checked for black death so I pulled the cover this morning. Sure enough, #1 injector has it. :eek: :cry: There is a little bit of crud on the #2 but I think it is just the gunk from #1 making its way over there.

So I search the archives and find out it has the potential to be a cheap repair but could also get ugly. I would prefer to do this repair myself but after reading the writeup (http://sprinter-source.com/forum/showthread.php?t=16068) I'm not so sure. Please correct me if I'm wrong, but I only need a new seal and hold down bolt. So less than $10 in parts. Then I read about the tools required and I get more concerned. Seat face tool (I'd like more info on this), injector puller, long tap, seal remover. I have a lot of experience working on cars, swapped engines, transmissions, done timing belts, head gaskets, tons of brake jobs; but never worked on a diesel and am out of practice. My main worry is messing something up that I can't fix like a busted bolt or cracked valve cover or needing a new cylinder head like some of the horror stories I read up on.

I have a Mercedes dealer nearby but they are a new dealer and I suspect they have very little experience working on the older T1Ns. I could go to Freightliner but they are farther away and transportation would be a problem. I think I'll call both tomorrow just to see what they say. I'll also research some indy shops.

What do you guys think? Leave it to the pros or tear into it?

surlyoldbill
05-18-2015, 12:21 AM
You caught it early, the injector shouldn't be hard to get out at all.

I don't think you'll need any special tools. A seat facer can be made from a 3/8" dowel with a piece of emery cloth glued on the tip, You can make a thread cleaner from the old hold-down bolt by using a metal cutoff wheel and cutting a thin vertical groove down across the threads. I doubt you'll need an injector puller, if you read the tips on how to remove an injector. Main thing to worry about is the hold-down bolt removal/installation.

Manually chip and scrape away as much as you can, then use a solvent and soak up the residue with some (disposable) rags, like paper towels. I used brake fluid, and it totally dissolved it, but will also eat the soft rubber covering the injector wires. Maybe cover them with aluminum foil or just be super careful.

The only thing "broken" is the copper seal washer, the injector itself is probably just fine. You need a new copper seal AND a new hold-down bolt. The hold down bolt hole threads MUST be cleaned to avoid the new bolt binding and snapping when you install it. I've found that a set of 5 washers and bolts from the UK on Ebay is the most economical; that set costs about as much as a single bolt and washer from USA.

312d
05-18-2015, 06:13 AM
some ceramic grease will be needed also, if you can use compressed air will help tons. Surlyoldbill has given you all the tips.

Ciprian
05-18-2015, 03:14 PM
To clean the hold down bolt hole I used a can of WD40 with a straw, insert it all the way to the bottom of the hole and spray a few times. Made the hole squeaky clean.

FFR5445
05-18-2015, 05:32 PM
Thanks for all the tips. I have seals and bolts ordered and right now I'm taking my time cleaning out all the gunk. A few more questions. Do I need to depressurize the fuel system before cracking the line? What is the best way to start twisting the injector? I'll start with my fingers but some threads mention a vice grip or screwdriver.

surlyoldbill
05-18-2015, 09:32 PM
Thanks for all the tips. I have seals and bolts ordered and right now I'm taking my time cleaning out all the gunk. A few more questions. Do I need to depressurize the fuel system before cracking the line? What is the best way to start twisting the injector? I'll start with my fingers but some threads mention a vice grip or screwdriver.

Nope, it depressurizes itself after you shut off the engine.

I used a crescent wrench to grip the injector and twist it back and forth a bit. There are a few flat spots that can be reached with a good size crescent wrench. This motion allows the penetrating oil to seep in further. You can try prying of lifting it as you turn side-to-side, but be careful where you brace your prybar/screwdriver. Also, protect the fuel line threads.

Nuke
05-18-2015, 09:47 PM
I ordered some Kroil and squirted it onto the hold down bolt and drove back and forth to work for a week
I then took a torx socket that fit and tapped it a few times at work and home while the engine was still hot.
When I finally got the nerve, when I got home and the engine was hot I tried cracking the hold down bolt free.
It broke free pretty easy. I then worked on reversing the direction. I didn't just try backing it all the way out
as I have heard of it binding up, so I backed it out a couple turns, then screwed it back in, backed it out 3-4 turns
back and forth until it came all the way out. The head is aluminum so you could bugger up the threads.

I personally removed the hold down bolt, then threw a rag over it, closed the hood and drove down the road
I used a bridge near by to put a load on the engine and you'll know when the injector pops
you'll get a knock, head on home pop the hood, disconnect the fuel line, I just listened it and then removed it all the way
and I used a towel to pull it out the rest of the way while it was still hot
If you wait for it to cool, the head might shrink enough to make it pretty tight again.

Some have claimed that I might have shot the injector through the hood, I don't know
But I have heard advise to NOT fully remove the hold down bolt
Mine was the front one like yours, I now have a back one, and I am inclined to just remove the bolt again
might just throw on a bigger thicker towel.

I used brake fluid while the engine was still hot to soften up the hard black stuff
I had some dental picks too to try to scrape all of that stuff off.
I got all of mine removed and used a 12 ga shotgun swab to clean the injector bore
and like surlyoldbill said a wooden dowel with a piece of emery cloth glued to the end to clean the copper ring surface

Make sure you make a hold down bolt hole thread cleaner out of an old bolt
don't just gamble on it threading in all the way

Good luck, you shouldn't have any problems, like others have said
looks like you discovered it early

FFR5445
05-18-2015, 11:48 PM
Well the worst has happened. The hold down bolt broke. I warmed up the engine and was extremely careful to loosen it, spray penetrating oil, tighten it a bit, spray more, loosen more. It seemed to be working it's way out but then it just snapped. Anyway it's broken. What the heck do I do now?

surlyoldbill
05-19-2015, 12:10 AM
Gonna have to drill it out. Maybe.

Left hand drill bits might bite enough to back it out, or perhaps an 1/8" bit and then a bolt extractor. I had to make do with what I had on hand when I broke one (tightening it in dirty threads...). It's a little long, so regular bits and thread taps will not reach all the way. I think there are repair kits available on ebay/amazon with the proper length bits and taps. Hopefully you can get it out without messing up the threads, otherwise you have to put in a 6x1 helicoil/timesert.

The thing is, only about the bottom inch is in the threads in the head. Where your's snapped is above the head threads. Maybe a good solvent like brake cleaner, and shop air and a rag for the mess will free it up a bit so an easy-out would remove it the rest of the way.

It is imperative that the drill bit travels straight and does not angle AT ALL from the bore. Using the perfect size bit and the remaining bore as a guide, you can clean off and level the broken end, and then use shims to keep a smaller bit centered. My brother has had luck using layers of drinking straws (split so they can expand or contract to fit as they are layered). Maybe some sort of collet or other metal tubing could be found in the perfect size.

I'd try a small hole and an easy-out first, with plenty of solvent or penetrating oil (Kroil). Heat gun?

Maybe Dennis will chime in with some tips.

Gabe Athouse
05-20-2015, 04:40 PM
Easy outs And left hand bits usually only work for an over tightened break, but a bolt that breaks on removal usually requires drilling out and retapping. This is really hard to do right. A helicoil is a good repair, usually stronger than the original system, but only if installed correctly. I haven't done this particular service but it seems like a real design flaw from MB. As a side note for removing tricky fasteners, heat is your friend, as is penetrating oil, and time. So when I see people do things like spray with penetrant and then drive it for a week, and trying to do the removal on a hot engine, I think to myself "these guys get it". Good luck.

FFR5445
05-21-2015, 01:39 AM
I hate to say it but this repair is beyond my skill and patience level. I called around and the only shop that knew about the issue is the freightliner dealer. They said they repair these broken bolts all the time and have a 90% success rate. So I had it towed there. Now that they looked at it they tell me they have to remove all 5 injectors and the cam cover below them to extract the bolt and repair the threads. Ok... it would be nice to get them all resealed anyway. The quote is really high but I told them to go ahead and do it because I don't know what else I would do. Among the parts in the quote is the cam cover itself and the flexible top fuel injector hose but it seems to me those should be ok to reuse. What do you guys think?

surlyoldbill
05-21-2015, 02:28 AM
Sorry, but that seems like they are making the job way more difficult than it needs to be. People replace a single broken hold down bolt all the time, without having to take off the head. I hate to say this, but I think you're getting screwed.

FFR5445
05-21-2015, 03:01 AM
They are not removing the head. Only the cam cover. Is that not necessary to extract the broken bolt? It seems reasonable because I thought the bolt goes into the head below this cover.

surlyoldbill
05-21-2015, 03:24 AM
I might be confused, but I think the head is what they thread in to, and the head bolts to the block. Maybe we're using different words for the same thing. I suppose if someone wanted to do a "perfect" job and salvage the existing threads that removing the head would be required, and it sure would make it easier than leaning into the engine bay. Hopefully they won't break any of the other bolts or damage the injectors. You might want to make sure they know that THEY will be paying for new injectors if they damage them; AND the labor to put them in.

FFR5445
05-21-2015, 03:38 AM
Number 9 in the picture is what I mean. They want to remove and replace it to extract the bolt. Does it need to come off? Any reason it can't be reused? I think sometimes it can get damaged with the puller but if it's fine I'm going to ask them to reuse it.

surlyoldbill
05-21-2015, 04:02 AM
The old stealership "repair" of a simple broken bolt was to replace #9 with a brand new one. This is way overkill, and is unnecessary as far as I know.

You should send a PM to Lindenengineering or contact Dr Andy (Abittenbinder on this forum) and get their advice. Either they don't know what they're doing or they are taking you to the cleaners. Any decent mechanic should be able to remove a broken bolt, and install a helicoil if needed, it doesn't need to be a Sprinter repair center.

FFR5445
05-21-2015, 04:09 AM
Thats why I'm going to ask them to reuse it. Does it need to come off to remove the broken bolt and repair the threads?

surlyoldbill
05-21-2015, 04:29 AM
Not in my opinion, but SOMETIMES it needs to come off, from what I've heard, maybe 1 in 100 cases.

israndy
05-21-2015, 03:55 PM
Working on computers all day makes me wanna say it may be possible to get the unit fixed in place, but if it is easier to do it by removing the part back to the bench where there is much greater access, visibility, and tools it will be better for the customer. You don't want to gamble with the customer's money that you can do it and then make things worse when you cannot. Just quote the repair that you can do every time and let the customer decide if that is what they wanna pay for.

-Randy

sailquik
05-21-2015, 04:23 PM
Drilling down 2-3" in a broken off, threaded portion of the old hold down bolt, accurately, would be nearly impossible without some sort of guide/drill bushing.
The hold down claw can come out (may already be out as that's about where the bolt broke).
Then that injector needs to come out (it may not want to come out at all) so you will have room to work around the broken off
bolt.
Replacing the threads in the head with a helicoil is NOT at good idea.
They make "TimeSerts" specifically for this repair.
Ensure that the shop replaces the threads in the head with a "TimeSert" insert to retain the required strength to torque the new hold
down bolt correctly.
Getting the cam cover out of the way makes a lot of sense to me.
Yes, it's a bit expensive to remove it, but the chances of a successful repair are far greater with it out of the way.
Perhaps the MB/Freightliner shop has a special jig made specifically for this repair, and the jig will not fit into the
head with the cam cover installed.
Doing it in the shade tree/DIY manner, decreases the potential for a successful repair, and changing the head for a
new/rebuilt one is going to be WAY more expensive.
The parts and the disassembly/reassembly would at least double (perhaps triple) the cost.
Hope this helps,
Roger

surlyoldbill
05-21-2015, 04:42 PM
My opposition and caution has more to do with the removal of the other 4 bolts and injectors. Now that the engine cannot be run, there are not effective ways to heat it in a way to remove the bolts/injectors. And even then, the risk of snapping another bolt is there. I would try to remove the broken bolt by itself before taking off the head/cam cover.

Since I've never done that, it seems to me that the head/cam cover could be removed with the injectors in place, if the hold down bolts thread in to the head/cam cover and not the block below. If that is true, maybe it WOULD be easier and safer to remove the head/cam cover with the injectors installed to get at the broken bolt.

Mortarsprayer
05-21-2015, 07:36 PM
Well,
You are not alone on this path. Over the weekend I jump started my truck with the silver shorty. With the hood up I cold hear a slight pst pst pst. Turned out it was the #1 injector and the very beginning of black death. My picture would look exactly like the first one in this thread.

Hopefully we will have better luck with the bolts than you did.

Can you recommend the UK seller with OEM bolts and seals?

Thank you,
Nolan

PS:
What does FFR stand for? Did you have a Factory five Cobra?

312d
05-23-2015, 08:14 AM
the cam cover cannot be removed with the injectors in place, i had a broken cam cover and all injectors had to come out, fitted new gasketS (5 in my case 6 in yours). if the cam cover if it is not bent, distorted or broken can be absolutely reusable.

lindenengineering
05-23-2015, 12:58 PM
Guys
I have been reading this thread.
Wow talk about a job going sideways.
First drilling out the broken bolt stem is very difficult without special guides & tools etc
You run the risk of puncturing the water jacket.

Yes a mentioned helicoil isn't too effective besides have you tried to get a 6x1mm insert that has the required length to take the torque of the bolt off the shelf?

OK!
Broken off in the head is one thing, most likely the threads are intact and usable with the bolt removed, that means spark eroding it out.
In short its head off for that job if you want reliability in service!

Now, if the thread has been ripped out then an insert can be put in there with the head engine insitu. Care is needed and a long tap drill and thread tap is required due to the depth involved.
I use a special socket from Snap On to hold the thread tap because it can easily snap off due to its length. Use kerosene (paraffin) as a cutting lube.
The back hold down bolt is difficult to do due to lack of access with any regular drill, so I revert to an air angle drill--"trying task" is the operative word!

For me the most effective way to recover the job once it has progressed to
"WTF-- waddah we do now" syndrome is to CAREFULLY bore out the whole lot to the original thread depth.
The parent hole is exactly the same size as a 7/16th UNC cutting size, so bore a thread all the way down into the hole.--yes 7/16th UNC
Now get a machinist to part off some 7/16ths threaded bar (thread stock) one inch (25mm) long and bore /thread the centre 6x1 mm. Now you have a perfect insert that will hold the bolt once you have cut a screwdriver slot in the end for placement. Blow the whole clean with shop air pre-lube and install by hand .
I have had some made up in SS and having a hex end for ease of install. Made in India 'cos i couldn't fin anyone in the US to tackle this machining exercise.
This methodology works the best and its my remedy for this repair exercise which can present some challenges and often results in lots of green clams exchanging hands to fix.
Dennis

woodyt30
05-23-2015, 02:05 PM
FFR5445, Can you tell me how many miles are on your Tin, just for my own info ? Thanks

Aqua Puttana
05-23-2015, 02:21 PM
...
The parent hole is exactly the same size as a 7/16th UNC cutting size, so bore a thread all the way down into the hole.--yes 7/16th UNC
Now get a machinist to part off some 7/16ths threaded bar (thread stock) one inch (25mm) long and bore /thread the centre 6x1 mm. Now you have a perfect insert that will hold the bolt once you have cut a screwdriver slot in the end for placement. Blow the whole clean with shop air pre-lube and install by hand .
I have had some made up in SS and having a hex end for ease of install. Made in India 'cos i couldn't fin anyone in the US to tackle this machining exercise.
This methodology works the best and its my remedy for this repair exercise which can present some challenges and often results in lots of green clams exchanging hands to fix.
Dennis
I like the 7/16" UNC idea. My experience with fasteners in aluminum masts and other aluminum parts has me believe that a coarser thread in aluminum is better than a finer one. Eg. - 10-24 holds better than 10-32 even though there are less threads per inch.

Why not just use a 7/16 UNC ss steel bolt or all thread to drill and tap to 6x1 mm? Chuck the stock in a lathe and drill/tap. Then cut your screwdriver slot. I don't see where being more concentric than that is critical. :idunno:

http://www.grainger.com/product/GRAINGER-APPROVED-18-8-Stainless-Steel-Threaded-WP168688/_/N-8k5Z1z0o3o3?s_pp=false&picUrl=//static.grainger.com/rp/s/is/image/Grainger/29DH90_AS01?$smthumb$

Back to the Freightliner job.

As has been said, dis-assembly gives more assured results, but there is risk in needing to remove all the injectors. Second guessing what the business wants to do will probably not be well received or help your situation. In my opinion, if you don't agree with the repair method your only real option would be to take the vehicle to somebody else who is comfortable doing the repair differently.

vic

surlyoldbill
05-23-2015, 03:52 PM
thanks to contributors for this learning experience.

lindenengineering
05-23-2015, 04:23 PM
There are a number of grades of SS steel.
Cutting them presents problems by themselves due to work hardening.

Having tried an S/S bolt I reverted to a regular carbon steel rod as my first prototype. Put a stock piece in the lathe, bored and theaded it to 6 mm then parted it off.

Having got it right I tried out several grades of SS, some with success some not but in the end used an Indian company who could make the batch without grumbling about it.
That is how I got to this point in time.
Dennis

Aqua Puttana
05-23-2015, 05:49 PM
Dennis,
It's a great idea if one is willing to remove the injectors and cover. It seems to have less risk than even the special tools with fancy guides. Thanks for sharing it here. :thumbup:

There are a number of grades of SS steel.
Cutting them presents problems by themselves due to work hardening.

Having tried an S/S bolt I reverted to a regular carbon steel rod as my first prototype. Put a stock piece in the lathe, bored and threaded it to 6 mm then parted it off.

Having got it right I tried out several grades of SS, some with success some not but in the end used an Indian company who could make the batch without grumbling about it.
That is how I got to this point in time.
Dennis
Stainless can be tough.

Mild steel would be fine except for corrosion. Too bad the torque specs don't allow for anti-seize. If you could use that the mild steel problems basically go away.

Not that anyone asked... getting an insert made for a DIY fix.

A full 6 mm thread into ss isn't as critical as it is OEM in the aluminum head. Drill a slightly over-sized tap hole in the ss insert for the 6mm hold down bolt. The tap then needs to cut less material. Additionally the chips seem to bind less. Lots of cutting oil and short turns in and out make tapping ss a bit easier. Patience will prevent galling.

Slow is not something a production shop wants to put up with, but it works for DIY or a couple custom made inserts.

vic

Added:
Of the fairly common types of ss, 303 grade annealed stainless has the best machinability.

The 18-8 ss threaded rod I suggested is basically 303 grade.

http://www.speedymetals.com/information/Material47.html

EZoilburner
05-24-2015, 03:11 PM
Great thread guys, I have not removed the injectors on mine yet but I bought a new set last year that is waiting to go in when they first injector shows signs of wear. There is one thing that is hard for Me to accept here and that is installing the new hold down bolt dry, given the difficulty to remove them and that they are easy to snap. I have always put at least a little bit of antiseize on bolts that are exposed, weak or that can oxidize, can one just simply change the torque specs in order to use something such as antiseize or high temperature grease?

Thanks.

Aqua Puttana
05-24-2015, 04:08 PM
...
can one just simply change the torque specs in order to use something such as antiseize or high temperature grease?

Thanks.
:idunno:

When I did my injectors by inspecting the removed bolts it was very evident where the threads engaged. I used an old bolt held to the new one and coated the new bolt down to a couple threads into clean area. My concept is that over time the anti-seize will creep down into the threads, but that a couple threads in didn't really affect the torque specs. At the very least it should help to keep moisture/corrosion/black death from migrating down into the threads.

vic

surlyoldbill
05-24-2015, 05:11 PM
I think these bolts with their 60 inch pound plus 90 degree torque spec should not be changed, because they might snap. Putting anti seize on them would still result in reaching 60 inch pounds.

FFR5445
05-25-2015, 03:58 AM
I got my van back on Friday and its running great once again. The dealer was good to work with. I got several updates over the phone and I'm pretty sure the tech actually ended up putting in more hours than I was charged for. They did reuse the cam cover and a few other parts so the final price came in below the original quote so I'm happy. They also got it to me in time for the big weekend so I could still take the family camping.

The bolt is so long it's very difficult to tell if it's stretching normally or breaking. I think the black death is the reason mine broke. Look back at the picture and you will see the black death on the length of it. The bolt loosened up initially but as it was coming out the gunk made it bind up. I think a better method would have been to spray the brake cleaner onto the bolt after I got it a bit loose to help dissolve it. They got my other 4 bolts out no problem even on a cold engine.

I only have 131k miles on the van which seems to be a sooner failure than most. Interesting enough, Minnesota mandated B10 back in July 2014. Is it possible my the black death may have partially been caused by biodiesel?

israndy
05-25-2015, 12:52 PM
So, the Black Death caused the bolt to seize? The fix for the Black Death was done by the dealer? What was the total you ended up out of pocket?

Should we change the name to the "Black Expense, but you get it back in time for Memorial Day weekend"? Was always very afraid of it, what with the big RV price I paid for the Sprinter.

-Randy

surlyoldbill
05-25-2015, 03:38 PM
Glad you got back on the road!
I always look at these expenses as being subsidized by all the other work I do myself; avoiding paying a mechanic. In the long run you're still out ahead.

Mortarsprayer
05-31-2015, 03:05 AM
That is great news that you are rolling again! I hope the weekend went well for everyone.

We are fixing our BD in the #1 cylinder right now. So far today the stretch bolt came out fine and things are progressing OK. I did need to remove the top of the injector and use a puller. So that is a bit of a $$ setback.
I did keep track of the two microscopic balls that were inside of the injector. I will find out on Monday of www.oregonfuelinjection.com can clean, reassemble and test it for me. Otherwie I wil purchase a replacement.

Now we are focusing on getting everything clean. for the reassembly.

**Note about injector pullers. I purchased one of the cheap Chinese units from Ebay for $35- $40. Unfortunately it was a hair too small to actually fit over the Sprinter injector, even though it was advertised as being for the Sprinter. It took a few minutes on the grinder to open it up to be a nice fit. It wasn't a big deal because there was an easy solution at hand. Hopefully yours will be a better fit.

Take care,
Nolan

Gabe Athouse
05-31-2015, 02:31 PM
Would it make sense to replace the hold down bolt with a stud and nut the retainer on instead? Then if the stud seizes into the cover, it doesn't matter because it wouldn't inhibit removal of the injector. Unless the stud itself would inhibit that removal, I don't know having never done this.

surlyoldbill
05-31-2015, 04:34 PM
The bolt needs to flex in order to work. The tolerances change when the metal is different temps, and the flex bolt accommodates that change, sort of like a spring on a macro scale. A stud would be an excellent solution, if it worked. I wonder if there is some kind of washer that could be used under the nut that would allow the same amount of tension and recovery throughout the changing tolerances, like the flex bolt does? I think that a standard stud and nut would not work for long, just like a grade 8 bolt would also cause Black Death sooner than an OEM flex bolt.:2cents:

Gabe Athouse
05-31-2015, 06:25 PM
Oh wow I didn't realize it was doing this. Well there are very precision flexing washers called dome washers that might accomplish this but I don't know how to engineer that. Why does the bolt need to flex?

sailquik
05-31-2015, 07:14 PM
Gabe,
Perhaps "flex bolt" is not the correct term for the injector hold down fasteners used on Sprinter engines (all of them).
The injector hold down bolt is an "engineered fastener" made from very specific materials, heat treated to a very
specific hardness, turned/machined to really close tolerances, threads rolled very specifically.
These bolts may in fact be shot peened at some point in their manufacture.
They are to be installed in a very specific manner so that all of the "engineering characteristics" that make
this fastener continue to apply the correct "hold down" pressure on the injector "claw" over the long haul
through millions of compression cycles, thousands of thermal heating and cooling cycles, at varying engine
coolant temperatures.
So, it gets torqued to a very specific value and then "stretched" some more by turning the additional specified
number of degrees, to provide the optimum long term life.
So, not really a "flex bolt" at all....just a carefully engineered fastener to hold the injector claw through all
of the compression/thermal/heating and cooling cycles it was designed to endure.
Hope this helps,
Roger

Gabe Athouse
05-31-2015, 07:43 PM
Okay I can get that, although what we know is that despite all this careful planning, they got the design wrong on is one, because it's failing in such a way that the repair is much more complicated than it should be. Not that I would throw out all their engineering on the injector hold downs, but the fastener if the fastener was correct designed, it would not leak, or break.

sailquik
05-31-2015, 08:03 PM
Gabe,
Unless you bought this Sprinter new, and have every maintenance action ever performed on it in recorded in writing somewhere, there
is no way to tell if your broken injector hold down claw bolt is the result of a simple failure of the bolt, incorrect original installation,
or a bad repair some where in it's history.
Plus there is always the "stuff happens" factor.
A little more heat in the engine when you tried to remove the bolt, perhaps some other type of penetrating fluid,
a more precisely aligned tool to back the bolt out of the threads, a few less miles with the injector seal leaking.
Any of these factors could be the ultimate cause of the bolt breaking when you tried to remove it.
Hope this helps,
Roger

Gabe Athouse
06-01-2015, 03:05 AM
Well, I hate to break it to you but there are a lot of fuel injectors in the world that don't exhibit this problem. I never heard of "Black Death" before sprinters. They fu€Łed up plain and simple. I don't have a broken bolt, or BD, yet, but if I do I'll take extra care in the repair because of the comments here! Just giving another prospective, that maybe nobody thought of about the stud vs bolt issue.

I'm more interested in preventing it but so far dumping oil is the only unproven prevention I've found. No, I don't have records, so I'll assume they haven't been touched in its 135,000 mi life so far.

Aqua Puttana
06-01-2015, 03:27 AM
They fu€Łed up plain and simple. ...
Not to be argumentative, but upon what do you base your plain and simple assessment?

First, Sprinter injector seal leakage is not necessarily an eventual thing. There are many Sprinter engines which never have a problem with injector seal leakage.

Well, I hate to break it to you but there are a lot of fuel injectors in the world that don't exhibit this problem. I never heard of "Black Death" before sprinters.
There are also a bunch of fuel injectors in the world which are not direct injecting fuel into a diesel combustion chamber.

Using a stud and maybe a spring washer like a Belleville washer is interesting for discussion. To say that the OEM design is a complete failure is overstating the problem. Blaming Mercedes may also be a bit off the mark because the injector design is Bosch.

:2cents: vic

Gabe Athouse
06-01-2015, 03:30 AM
I'm sure it's not a total failure, but it's an issue, or we wouldn't be talking about it. I'm also sure there's a way to improve the design, but I'm not suggesting tha I can do that.

Aqua Puttana
06-01-2015, 06:33 PM
...

I only have 131k miles on the van which seems to be a sooner failure than most. Interesting enough, Minnesota mandated B10 back in July 2014. Is it possible my the black death may have partially been caused by biodiesel?
2006 131,000 miles of city driving = more heat/cool cycles than an over the road vehicle. The seal or seat might have had a small defect. Perhaps the one bolt wasn't properly torqued at the factory or the stretch bolt properties were out of spec. :idunno:

Doktor A has mentioned fuel quality as one possibility for a seemingly higher NAS aka NAFTA incidence of injector seal seat leakage (Black Death). It may be a contributing factor, but injector seal failure is not unknown in the rest of the world.

I personally don't even have an unsubstantiated hunch as to why you had trouble at 131,000 miles and others have none for 300,000+ miles. to my knowledge we really don't have enough data.

:cheers: vic

surlyoldbill
06-01-2015, 11:02 PM
I think Vic is on to something. City driving with multiple starts and stops and cooling during the day probably puts a lot more stress on the system. Not to mention the extra soot getting dumped in to the engine from idling, and the effect it would have on the combustion gas.

promisberg
06-06-2015, 09:09 PM
Gabe Totally agree!

Just broke my hold down bolt and was being careful, first owner, bolts that need to be used for a replaceable part should not break when just removing WTF! Just showind early signs of BD on #1, trying to be proactive and now I have a cluster on my hands.

Need to know how to get broken bolt out.

Mortarsprayer
06-06-2015, 09:40 PM
Hello Friends,
I am happy top report that our first bout with black death has been successfully resolved on the 2004 shorty.
Things we did that helped:
Soaked everything in Kroil for a week + as we were gathering parts. We went slow and easy as we removed the stretch bolt. It was surprising how complete the threads were full of black carbon goo.

If I do this again, I will definitely follow the forum advice and drive around with the loosened injector to see if I can get it to pop without taking the top off. I wish I had done this for a week while the parts were on the way. Instead I purchased a new injector because I took the top off the old one and didn't want to risk extra problems.
In the end I needed to use the injector puller I purchased from Ebay. One setback with the puller was that it was just a little too small. It required some grinding on the tool to be able to fit onto the injector.

We used the picture from the forum of hand made BD tools and made our own set. Instead of turning down a larger dowel to fit perfectly we used a 5/8" dowel that did great.
We also made a disk the size of the bottom of the injector pocket. This covered the open hole to the combustion chamber while we were cleaning out the black goo.
Brake cleaner and a 12 gauge shotgun cleaner made easy work of goo.
To clean the seat, we hot glued a round disk of 600 grit paper to the dowel and gently polished the surface.

Over all, nothing went terribly astray.

Next time I will look for an injector puller that can use the wedge shape on the injector so I can pull without removing the top of the injector.
Can anyone point me towards a puller like this?

All my best,
Nolan

surlyoldbill
06-08-2015, 03:26 PM
I remember from a long time ago that someone made a cam that fit like the hold down cam, but instead of holding down it pushed UP as you tightened the hold down bolt. Probably not a great idea, as it could lead to stripped threads. I wonder about fabricating something like that, but with a handle so it could lever up the injector?

Nolan, Go Ducks. As a former Oregon Track guy, I wish I was there for the NCAAs.

SprinterHelp
08-14-2015, 05:22 AM
Fix after by the book fail 2004. Chuffing began after oil change colorado mountains. Had to stop Pagoda Springs, great place to break down, severe inj seal leak. Removed hold down, was pre repaired heli coil junk. Read till my eyes hurt. Got time sert kit, 5 days later. 1/2 turn to seat sleeve, time sert tool broke with about 3-4 pounds, much less than turning vent dial about 3/4 at end. So bummed, remembered a no detail fix that required BFB BIG FRIKIN BOLT. Measuring shown I had about 2 inches from top of bolt entrance. Drilled and tapped approximate 8.6 MM hex bolt with very narrow head, first bolt had wide head and butted against injector. Did normal clean of inj entrance shaft, cleaned seal seat w/emery, applied anti sieze. BFB repair cost.... with removal of inj by running motor and injector popped up when warm, clean fast as possible while warm. So paper towels, carbon cleaner, 20 gauge or so brush for inj chamber, you can wrap paper around gun brush, it does not fall off. Took a copper tube and crimped around gun brush end and bent to L shape. This allows nice spinning of brush paper filled with cleaner.
Replace injector with new seat anti seize. Measured bolt length, hole depth, replaced claw hold down, place appropriate size hard spacer above claw. Tightened BFB to ???? Its a BFB, to the point I felt copper seal compress and just a tad more, not gonna break or strip with care. Started, stopped cussing first time in 6 days. Went up the mountain and took weekmoff panning gold. About a 35 dollar repair with drill bits and tap.. etc. If I had to do it again I could do in less than two hours. Whats really funny is I had extra new hold down bolt and copper seal. I was so proud I had the parts and was a no major time loss repair. In my hurry I accidentally removed #2 inj not the #1 that was leaking. So no more seals, tried reusing but woupd not work. Tried various copper rings but no go. Ha ha ha but NOW I KNOW.

One call a/c
11-26-2015, 08:10 PM
Question.
If one was to pull all injectors and cam cover to remove a broken hold down bolt , would it make sense to drill out all hold down threads and use timeserts on all of them while your at this point ? And if one hold down bolt broke closer to the top would it need to be drilled down before the cover would clear to remove or no ?


Howboutcha-

lindenengineering
11-26-2015, 09:26 PM
Guys these are wimpy remedies and once the 6mm x 1mm thread pocket is damaged its a crap shoot trying to find a helicoil and/or or timesert of the length dimension to successfully hold down the bolt and get sufficient bite to extend the bolt into tension/torque yield .

Without the torque to yield condition the injector will work loose and start leaking the combustion gases all over again.
A big time waster.

I used to use an original bolt many moons ago filed with a side flat to clean out the carbon and crud from the threads but I now have taken to using an aircraft standard 8" long thread tap to thoroughly clean and recover the existing threads where possible.

The other big issue is a sheered bolt. It is very diffident to drill out the existing stub in situ without damaging the parent threaded bore!
Get too rambunctious and you run the very real risk of puncturing the cooling jacket.

Now a few years ago I devised a method that which I cobbled up in the shop.
The injector hold down bolt hole is a stepped hole wider at the top until the threaded step is encountered.
Using a 3/8ths drill I punched the hole out including the broken stub portion.
Now conveniently 3/8th is the standard thread tap size for 7/16 UNC which is 7/16 x 14 thread pitch. Once cleaned out it is easy to thread cut the entire hole to this final thread diameter blowing the swarf (chips) out with a shop line.

Now this is where your fab skills come in handy if you have some!
Take a 8.8 grade 7/16 UNC bolt and centre bore it to accept a 6x1 mm thread. I used a lathe but you could do this I suppose in a vice with some tenacity! OMG!
Cut the length to be at least one inch long.
Once threaded you can then part off the head and the threaded stub to make a grub screw.
Now put two lock nuts on the grub screw to hold it in the vice then cut a screwdriver slot in the top.
Try a good used old injector bolt into the thread, ensure it runs up and down freely. Grind down a 6mm nut to act as a lock nut then use the injector bolt to act as a driver placement tool.
Then use a screwdriver the place the grub screw firmly into the bottom of the threaded hole you have made.
This will allow you to refit the injector and bolt to the prescribed torque.

Now these days I use the Indians in Chennai; Gupta and Gupta Bros to make small batches of these in S/S with an allen placement female socket on the end.
Good machinists are Indians, and great to do business with!
"Not desperately cheeply but cheeply than many for small batch production quotas"
Must try to say this while wagging my head from side to side!
A suggestion to this dilemma!
कमबख्त आसान:lol:
Dennis

lindenengineering
11-26-2015, 09:44 PM
Gonna have to drill it out. Maybe.


Maybe Dennis will chime in with some tips.


I chimed in! :thumbup:
Cheers Dennis

cacaw
11-26-2015, 09:46 PM
Happy Thanksgiving!

Not a mechanic, so when I decided to take a peak under the plastic engine cover, I was flummoxed to find that the hold-down bolts were super rusty. Before I make them even worse with vice-grips or something, any tips? I'm anxious to see if anything's leaking so that I can catch it before it becomes worse.

Thanks,
Koert

2006 T1N 3500 (2007 Winnebago View)

One call a/c
11-29-2015, 03:34 PM
Just tackled the # 1 injector seal replacement. The seal started leaking about a week ago , started smelling exhaust smell in the cabin. I loosened the hold down bolt about half way or so , filled the area with PB blaster. Got the engine to temp and took her for a ride. I believe the injector lifted pretty quickly. Got back home and still had a difficult time twisting the injector back and fourth. It was tough coming out. Got it out and cleaned the bore, seat and injector body. Applied some nickel high temp anti seize to the injector body. Put the new seal on and reinstalled the injector. Just waiting now to get ahold of a torque wrench. http://images.tapatalk-cdn.com/15/11/29/054a0a5ad9c2b5ff1870bf29a13ecc6d.jpghttp://images.tapatalk-cdn.com/15/11/29/895023256a258172d545d97122328e19.jpghttp://images.tapatalk-cdn.com/15/11/29/6dfbb8d82e79d7c7ab770bf75c495e37.jpghttp://images.tapatalk-cdn.com/15/11/29/ce545533486d92c9b62189e6028e3f76.jpg


Howboutcha-

One call a/c
11-29-2015, 03:36 PM
Check out what the copper seal looked like after I pulled it out :/


Howboutcha-

surlyoldbill
11-29-2015, 04:48 PM
was it bent like that in the bore, or was that a result of digging it out?

MillionMileSprinter
11-29-2015, 05:19 PM
I've pulled out quite a few injector seals, some black death, some not. I've NEVER seen one looking like that! So I second surlyoldbill's question.

One call a/c
11-29-2015, 05:28 PM
That was what it looked like down in there. I used a small screwdriver to slide it out


Howboutcha-

One call a/c
11-29-2015, 05:32 PM
Just broke off a brand-new hold down bolt before I even got to 62 inch pounds why do they make these bolts so weak


Howboutcha-

surlyoldbill
11-29-2015, 05:32 PM
maybe it got tweaked when you ran it with the hold down bolt loose to get the injector out.

My bad seal was pitted and had corrosion/wear leading in one spot to the well, but was still round and flat.

Aqua Puttana
11-29-2015, 05:33 PM
I've pulled out quite a few injector seals, some black death, some not. I've NEVER seen one looking like that! So I second surlyoldbill's question.
I agree.

It's difficult to tell from pictures. It doesn't look like that seal is majorly scraped up from digging out. The way the OEM injector seals are fit to the injector tip I can't imagine how a correct seal part could deform like that when installed. vic

One call a/c
11-29-2015, 05:35 PM
http://images.tapatalk-cdn.com/15/11/29/7e0e2d804bc2a2bc14d496e5c8feef54.jpghttp://images.tapatalk-cdn.com/15/11/29/b62f54425267d16bff400d3d1d4adb08.jpg


Howboutcha-

One call a/c
11-29-2015, 05:36 PM
http://images.tapatalk-cdn.com/15/11/29/cae2d299e546132b6f102d6328ebc91b.jpg
That's exactly how the seal was at the bottom in the picture


Howboutcha-

surlyoldbill
11-29-2015, 05:37 PM
Just broke off a brand-new hold down bolt before I even got to 62 inch pounds why do they make these bolts so weak


Howboutcha-

I broke one because I didn't clean the threads out very well and it bound before hitting bottom. If yours broke at the prescribed 60 inch pounds (plus 1/2 turn), then something was wrong.

I had to drill mine out and install helicoil but couldn't get a tap long enough at the time so cut the replacement bolt short. NOT recommended; check for drill and tap kit for Sprinter injectors. You might have luck drilling small hole and using a screw extractor, worth a shot. Mine still working great tens of thousands of miles so far, though.

One call a/c
11-29-2015, 05:38 PM
Looks like I'm screwed now


Howboutcha-

One call a/c
11-29-2015, 05:39 PM
I ordered a timesert kit just in case it hasn't come yet not sure if I may be able to get the ball out without drilling I don't know


Howboutcha-

surlyoldbill
11-29-2015, 05:43 PM
Note: the bolts are long and made of that type steel because they are basically a threaded spring, they adapt to the changing tolerances of heating/cooling metal to keep tension on the injector so it doesn't work loose. Some people have attempted replacing them with grade 8 bolts, I haven't heard long term results.

surlyoldbill
11-29-2015, 05:47 PM
best not to mess with the engineering.
Specific repair kit is best if the broken bolt cannot be extracted.
Worst case scenario is to remove head and repair hold down threads on the workbench.

Actually REAL worst case scenario is attempting to drill out bolt and going through side of head into coolant or combustion chambers...

One call a/c
11-29-2015, 05:50 PM
So I should use a small bit to drill into the center of the bolt and try and screw extractor do they have those in that size diameter? I can see the bolt it's not too far down not sure why it broke before 62 foot pounds and less the torque wrench is in calibrated properly I did rent it from Auto Zone looks pretty new I don't know


Howboutcha-

One call a/c
11-29-2015, 05:57 PM
I did notice liquid filled probably WD-40 PB blaster that I didn't get out maybe that is what caused that problem I just still don't know why the torque wrench wouldn't feel that tour pressure and click before the bolt broke


Howboutcha-

One call a/c
11-29-2015, 06:00 PM
I did run the old hold down bolt all the way down I few times without the claw in place the bolt went down with no problem I don't understand what happened


Howboutcha-

surlyoldbill
11-29-2015, 06:12 PM
finding out why it broke won't help fix the problem but will prevent it from happening again.
Are you sure it was INCH pounds and not FOOT pounds? The auto parts store may not be familiar such low torque and gave you the wrong wrench (5 foot pounds would be equivalent I think).

I've seen small screw extractors, but they may be to big diameter to get down there to remove the broken bolt. To make sure you're centered, find some tubing to shim out from the sides and use a small diameter drill bit that fits without wobbling. I think 1/4 OD tubing might fit, or slightly smaller. A trick I learned for making temporary shims is to stack plastic slit soda straws that inside each other until the desired OD/ID is met. Metal guide would be better, though. The point being to flatten the broken part of the bolt.

surlyoldbill
11-29-2015, 06:16 PM
Might be worthwhile to use a threader on the next bolt to make sure there are no burrs.

One call a/c
11-29-2015, 06:52 PM
The wrench is definitely inch pounds.


Howboutcha-

MercedesGenIn
11-29-2015, 07:26 PM
Hi there,
Going back a few posts ( #65 ) the reason the removed seal looked like it did was probably a result of letting engine combustion compression gasses loosen/lift the injector from its seat. This is what circa 2000-2900psi PCP whizzing past, breaking through the smallest gaps between seat, injector and soft copper seal, tracing the easiest possible route to atmosphere will do.

Steve

One call a/c
11-29-2015, 08:18 PM
I'm starting my search for some long left handed drill bits. Thinking this is the place to start since the easy out / bit isn't long enough to get with the drill was wondering if it would be worth trying to jb weld the top half of the bolt back to the bottom letting it set up then backing out. I doubt it's bound up in the threads seeing how I was easily able to fully thread the bolt in by hand BEFORE I put the injector in.


Howboutcha-

lindenengineering
11-29-2015, 08:38 PM
You sir are a wishful thinker!
Fact there are no short cuts in this MV repair business to getting it right! First off renting a torque wrench is a first BIG mistake many make unless you have it tested BEFORE you use it!.
I test mine every week on the Snap On truck a calibrated test rig!

Twist drills you buy are mostly jobber length from places like Home Despot , you have to buy extra long aircraft drill which are much longer.---naturally
Chicago La Trobe is a source:-
http://www.cutting-tool-supply.com/Chicago-Latrobe/
These folks are part of the Greenfield Corp!
Info:-
http://www.gfii.com/content/video.asp

Consult a thread and tap chart easily found on line to select the appropriate drill by number sizes if you are going to have a bash at getting the broken stub out.
I tend either to grub screw modify the head as a field repair or remove the head and erode out the broken bit,
Just words of caution because you can wreck a head very easily!
Dennis

MercedesGenIn
11-29-2015, 10:20 PM
Hi Dennis,
Think you have problems with sheared bolts... this one is my personal favourite - http://tinyurl.com/zydp3fq Pity the guy don't you really..

Steve

surlyoldbill
11-29-2015, 11:55 PM
I've removed "security" screws by cutting a slot in the head and using a standard screwdriver to back them out. The same technique MIGHT work for these broken bolts, if a dremel diamond bit could reach down there to mortise a groove.

lindenengineering
11-30-2015, 12:44 AM
Steve
Lovely example a "repair challenge", its what makes me tick!
Just bring up the milling machine, like a Bridgeport and some fine machine tooling like Chicago La Trobe and Starrett of Scotland.

Like a new 'un in a few hours!
Cheers and thanks for posting that little gremlin of a job!:thumbup:
Dennis

dear2mhart
11-30-2015, 01:09 AM
Guys these are wimpy remedies and once the 6mm x 1mm thread pocket is damaged its a crap shoot trying to find a helicoil and/or or timesert of the length dimension to successfully hold down the bolt and get sufficient bite to extend the bolt into tension/torque yield .

Without the torque to yield condition the injector will work loose and start leaking the combustion gases all over again.
A big time waster.

I used to use an original bolt many moons ago filed with a side flat to clean out the carbon and crud from the threads but I now have taken to using an aircraft standard 8" long thread tap to thoroughly clean and recover the existing threads where possible.

The other big issue is a sheered bolt. It is very diffident to drill out the existing stub in situ without damaging the parent threaded bore!
Get too rambunctious and you run the very real risk of puncturing the cooling jacket.

Now a few years ago I devised a method that which I cobbled up in the shop.
The injector hold down bolt hole is a stepped hole wider at the top until the threaded step is encountered.
Using a 3/8ths drill I punched the hole out including the broken stub portion.
Now conveniently 3/8th is the standard thread tap size for 7/16 UNC which is 7/16 x 14 thread pitch. Once cleaned out it is easy to thread cut the entire hole to this final thread diameter blowing the swarf (chips) out with a shop line.

Now this is where your fab skills come in handy if you have some!
Take a 8.8 grade 7/16 UNC bolt and centre bore it to accept a 6x1 mm thread. I used a lathe but you could do this I suppose in a vice with some tenacity! OMG!
Cut the length to be at least one inch long.
Once threaded you can then part off the head and the threaded stub to make a grub screw.
Now put two lock nuts on the grub screw to hold it in the vice then cut a screwdriver slot in the top.
Try a good used old injector bolt into the thread, ensure it runs up and down freely. Grind down a 6mm nut to act as a lock nut then use the injector bolt to act as a driver placement tool.
Then use a screwdriver the place the grub screw firmly into the bottom of the threaded hole you have made.
This will allow you to refit the injector and bolt to the prescribed torque.

Now these days I use the Indians in Chennai; Gupta and Gupta Bros to make small batches of these in S/S with an allen placement female socket on the end.
Good machinists are Indians, and great to do business with!
"Not desperately cheeply but cheeply than many for small batch production quotas"
Must try to say this while wagging my head from side to side!
A suggestion to this dilemma!
कमबख्त आसान:lol:
Dennis

Hey Dennis
How about putting a repair kit together. With the the proper drill, tap and fancy little ss inserts you have fabricated up. Some nice detailed instructions. Maybe a few pictures. Everyone likes pictures. I wold happily pay some $ for a dyi kit I could get my hands on in a few days. Beats searching endlessly hoping to find what you are describing. Then waiting on stuff to arrive just to find out it's wrong. You could put that stuff in a 2 day priority mails flat rate box. I am sure people would love you for it.

lindenengineering
11-30-2015, 01:47 AM
OK
I could produce a video of the procedure.
I will try to do a work up on parts and costings if there is enough demand.
It's just that I don't use this forum web site as a sales spam platform.
Dennis

surlyoldbill
11-30-2015, 02:56 AM
You could just place it in the "for sale" section and everything would be cool. It's not like it's a huge money spinner, more of a community service. You would just be collecting the needed tools and packaging them together in a bundle.

MillionMileSprinter
11-30-2015, 03:03 AM
Hi there,
Going back a few posts ( #65 ) the reason the removed seal looked like it did was probably a result of letting engine combustion compression gasses loosen/lift the injector from its seat. This is what circa 2000-2900psi PCP whizzing past, breaking through the smallest gaps between seat, injector and soft copper seal, tracing the easiest possible route to atmosphere will do.
Steve

Yeah, after spending some time thinking about it, I guessed he just loosened the injector bolt more than a quarter inch and the pressure of the combustion gasses flying past the soft metal allowed it to deform like that within the space it was given. Especially since he said he drove around for a while with it loose.
When I pop injectors, I just loosen the injector bolt a 1/16" or so. Just enough to let the pressure loosen the injector, but not to have it shoot out! And most of the time just starting the engine and revving it a bit is enough to break the injector loose. I think I only had one or two that needed a drive around the block... and then there were the ones that needed the puller. IIRC, they were all black death infected. But I am detracting from the thread...

MillionMileSprinter
11-30-2015, 03:21 AM
Dennis,
It took me a few reads, but I finally figured out what you were explaining! I get everything but when you say "Using a 3/8ths drill I punched the hole out including the broken stub portion."
Drill out how? Do you remove the head and drill it out on drill press? If you left the head on the engine, I was imagining some sort of small, portable press with a 90* chuck on it to stay small and compact, especially if you have to drill out any of the bolt holes past injector #2.
I've removed quite a few injectors (friends, family, etc) over the past few years and have always been terrified of breaking bolts, but judicious use of Kroil, hot engines, keyboard dusting cans turned upside down (freezing), and lots of gentle wiggling back and forth, I've gotten lucky every time. Sooner or later, I assume my luck is going to run out!

One call a/c
11-30-2015, 03:27 AM
Yeah. I loosened the bolt about half way and took it around the block. I still had a good time twisting back and fourth to get it out. Tomorrows job is to try and back out the broken bolt. Hoping because there's no stress on it I may be able to get it. Plus the fact that there's still PB blaster down in the hole. Will see. Wishful thinking as Dennis put it. I need to find an extension to attach to the left handed drill bit. Or a long nosed drill. I'll keep you updated for sure.


Howboutcha-

surlyoldbill
11-30-2015, 03:54 AM
I just did a quick websearch for long LH drill bits and didn't turn up anything.
If you're handy at welding you might be able to tag one on the end of some rod.
Or it might be possible to copy the flutes of a self-tapping screw, only LH instead, with a dremel or grinder on a piece of hard steel rod to make your own. I think it would have to be 5mm (3/16") to fit inside the threads.

MillionMileSprinter
11-30-2015, 04:42 AM
If I were in your shoes (and I'm glad I'm not!), I would get a 1/8 or so left handed (backwards) drill bit and first drill a pilot hole in the broken piece of bolt. That might pull the piece loose. If it didn't, I would use a thin "easy out" or something equivalent to back the piece out. Like you said, it's not sealed in there with 10s of thousands of miles on it. If that didn't work, I would then revert to Dennis' method as a last resort. Not that Dennis doesn't have a good method, it's just that his has so many steps that I can screw up!
Good luck!
(where in S. Fla are you? I used to live in Naples)

psuggmog
11-30-2015, 05:10 AM
I once removed a sheared off bolt containing a broken off hardened easy out in the middle of it, from a very expensive machine part for another mechanic. Here's how I did it: 1) I machined a guide bushing to fit into the bore which had the broken bolt in it. 2) I marked the center of the broken stub to be removed using a transfer punch. 3) Using a high quality made in the USA air die grinder with a collet chuck and no run-out in the rotor, with a lubricated 4mm diameter diamond endmill very slowly bored through the hardened sheared off extractor in the broken bolt. 4) Once I had a hole in the bolt stub, I gradually increased the diameter if the hole I created until I got to the minor diameter of the original thread. 5) I then ground down a 90 degree machinist's scribe to fit in the hole and picked out the bits of remaining bolt metal from the female threads. 6) I blew out the hole with compressed air before and after chasing the original threads. no helicoil needed.
This took a few hours but saved the part and decreased the down time by days. Also didn't have a spark destructor.

One call a/c
11-30-2015, 06:02 PM
Does anyone by chance know the hold down bolt depth to the bottom of the threads ? I'm waiting on a timesert kit to arrive for the job but I need to know how deep to drill. If anyone knows in inches I would greatly appreciate it. The left handed drill bit was a no go and I can't get an easy out down that far and have something to turn it with. There is a local guy that sells a bunch of these vans and says he's never seen a broken hold down bolt. I'm sure bSmirk. He said he would use a heilcoil for the repair and approx 500 to do it. If I can get the hole depth I feel confident I can get it done with the timesert kit. Thoughts ??


Howboutcha-

One call a/c
11-30-2015, 09:21 PM
http://images.tapatalk-cdn.com/15/11/30/d923cf5ae40ccd84046452c1c2f40771.jpg

Well... Look at this **** !! I'm super stoked right now




Howboutcha-

Aqua Puttana
11-30-2015, 09:54 PM
...

Well... Look at this **** !! I'm super stoked right now




Howboutcha-
Three cheers!!!!

:clapping:

:cheers: vic

lindenengineering
11-30-2015, 10:03 PM
http://images.tapatalk-cdn.com/15/11/30/d923cf5ae40ccd84046452c1c2f40771.jpg

Well... Look at this **** !! I'm super stoked right now




Howboutcha-

I bet you are!!!!
Well done!:thumbup::thumbup:
Dennis

surlyoldbill
11-30-2015, 10:28 PM
excellent!

One call a/c
11-30-2015, 10:47 PM
Thanks fellas. Luckily the time sert didn't come in today otherwise I would have been drilling it out. I figured I would drill a smaller hole in the center of the bolt until I got through to the bottom. Once I did that I stuck the small blade screwdriver in and tried turning. I'm still in disbelief. But super happy. Cleaning out the threads and especially the bottom below the threads. I'm kinda scared to torque the bolt down. Any pointers ?


Howboutcha-

surlyoldbill
11-30-2015, 11:27 PM
clean clean clean.
Remember to blow out the hole with compressed air, maybe use qtip swab with solvent to make doubly sure there's nothing in the threads, and tap again, and maybe a small magnet?

Being that the threads have been disturbed, there may not be as "much" there anymore. Maybe a little extra loctite added to the factory loctite on the bolt. I don't know, just guessing.

Test fit an old bolt without any torque before final placement of new bolt.

One call a/c
12-01-2015, 02:35 AM
It's all back together now. Cleaned the hole good. Especially the bottom. Ran the old bolt down a few times. Used another torque wrench and WOW. What a difference. Man did I over tighten the last one. I did the 62 in lbs. plus 180*. Everything's good with the world. I did take some measurement to help me and possibly others in the future.


Howboutcha-

vanski
12-01-2015, 04:14 AM
OK
I could produce a video of the procedure.
I will try to do a work up on parts and costings if there is enough demand.
It's just that I don't use this forum web site as a sales spam platform.
Dennis

Well, here I am rooting Howboutcha on today hoping he gets through this, which he did, and look at what reared it's ugly head at me. Same indication of smelling something a little different and then I opened the hood and could hear a pst pst pst pst. Turned the engine off, took of the cover, and there it is.

Dennis, this DIYer could really use that kit right now! Possible test-bed? :thumbup:

One call a/c
12-01-2015, 04:21 AM
You can do it. The key to starting is having the engine nice and hot. Don't waste any time getting the injector out. And just take your time with the bolt removal. How many miles do you have and what year van ?


Howboutcha-

vanski
12-01-2015, 04:27 AM
You can do it. The key to starting is having the engine nice and hot. Don't waste any time getting the injector out. And just take your time with the bolt removal. How many miles do you have and what year van ?


Howboutcha-

149,980 miles!!!! 2004

I just sold my other car because the Haldex was acting up. Oh man. The reality of this situation is digging in.

Well, I guess it's time to start reading. :bash:

One call a/c
12-01-2015, 11:40 AM
That's not even broke in yet lol. You need to do a leak off test on the injectors first to be sure the #1 is good before you remove and replace it. You need to get yourself the new bolt and seals from the dealer or online. Have everything ready to go. You should also have some brake cleaner , PB blaster, and maybe even some oven cleaner. With the warm engine, try to cover the wiring a bit so you don't damage the insulation with the cleaner. Then start spraying around the injector base and such to break down the goo. Yours doesn't look bad. It's just starting. Remember. Hot hot hot engine. Full operating temp. Where are you located ?


Howboutcha-

lindenengineering
12-01-2015, 12:39 PM
Caution Caution!
With all those cleaners blowing about, crank the engine with no injectors/glow plugs in to clear the cylinders.
When cutting out broken bits use at least grease or best for trapping swarf/chip is thread tap wax lube.

An engine with large amounts of combustible fluid dwelling in the combustion chamber or metal debris can have catastrophic results upon start up!
Dennis

One call a/c
12-01-2015, 01:40 PM
These are the measurements of the counter bore and the depth of the complete hole. This will come in handy if the bolt ever has to be drilled out. Ace hardware and possibly hobby shops carry a thin wall brass tubing useful for using as a drill guide. 5/16" for the top counter bore area. The bolt hole length
from the bottom to the top of the shaft is 2 1/2". From the top of the shaft to the top of the threads (counter bore ) is 1 3/4".
And as Dennis said , be sure to plug / clean the combustion chamber out with compressed air / vac with small tube attachment and the hold down bolt hole completely. As for the bolt hole , I uses some long cotton swabs with a dab of grease to cling to the small particles then some rubbing alcohol on the swab to clean it. Use the old / new bolt to run down the threads to be sure all is well and there is no binding. Look down the hole with a good light to be sure you can see the bottom / aluminum if not clean clean clean. I bought some nickel Graf high temp anti seize to lightly coat the clean injector body before assembly.

Howboutcha-

Aqua Puttana
12-01-2015, 02:00 PM
These are the measurements of the counter bore and the depth of the complete hole. ...
Howboutcha-
Good information. :thumbup:

I've thought a bit about if the water jacket is pierced. I believe there is a rescue available for that.

My thinking is that an inside/outside threaded insert as Dennis has described could be installed as he outlines.

The difference for a breached cooling passage would be that the insert would have a closed end so the JB Weld doesn't squeeze up into the threads. Added: The thin closed end could be accomplished by using a thin coat of JB Weld on the barrel end, or by using a disc of shim stock glued into place with JB Weld. In either case that JB Weld end seal would need to cure before installation.

Back to installation.
Before installation a bit of JB Weld would first be applied at the bottom of the hole. (Not too much because you might fill the cooling passage. How much you might ask? :idunno:) The JB Weld would be squeezed down into the damaged area as the insert was screwed into place. As long as the metal at the bottom was properly cleaned I'd almost guarantee sealing and long term success.

The new stretch bolt could be shortened a bit to accommodate the closed end insert reducing the overall threaded depth. Losing a couple threads is not critical when threading into the steel insert. It is much stronger than the original aluminum. (Shortening the bolt wouldn't be needed with a shim stock end cover.)

Be certain to dry fit everything before adding the JB Weld to the bottom of the hole. Once the JB Weld cures with the insert in place there is likely no going back.

Mostly thinking out loud. vic

vanski
12-01-2015, 03:04 PM
Thanks guys (or gals). I think this is the only real mechanical issue I've encountered. Everything else has been sensor failures and a couple electrical gremlins. I'm trying to be respectfully cautious in my approach here.

I've read through some of the other threads (tons of great information there) on how to go about this, but it's differing slightly from what I'm hearing here. I'm sure there are many ways to skin this cat, some more cautionary than others, some more correct than others, some approaches dependent on what tools you have on hand.

It sounds like just because the injector seal is leaking doesn't mean the injector is bad. From the threads I've been reading I thought the injector was almost always bad. Sounds like this isn't the case. Great, I'd love to send back the $315 injector I bought late last night.

Would it be too much for you Sprinter gods play along with me for a second here. I'm in-process of wrapping my brain around this and I want to make sure I understand the root issue, what's going on, and then align a game plan. This is pretty abbreviated and I know the devil is in the detail.

The root issue is the seal around my #1 injector is leaking which is allowing diesel to escape under pressure and heat. As a side note 'Black Death' is an extreme version of what I have going on and occurs when this goes on for tens, if not hundreds, of thousands of miles to the point where the injector(s) and bores get completely mucked-up, do not provide an appropriate medium for fuel delivery, and ultimately the injector can not be removed as it is essentially welded into the bore.

Seeing I caught this early, the injector should come out of the bore and the carbon deposits may or may not have damaged the injector. The injector(s) can be tested via a leak-off test to determine if it is salvageable.

Whether or not the injector is still good is academic as the injector will need to be removed so the deposits in the bore can be cleaned.

In order to remove the injector I need spray some PB blaster on it and let it really soak in, get the vehicle hot, loosen the hold-down bolt, get it even hotter, then it should pop. I need to use some kind of tool to get the injector out.

Once the injector is out I need to completely clean the carbon deposits from the bore. I'll leave that one there as I understand there are many ways to go about this.

Once the bore is clean, put everything back in place (new seal, new hold-down bolt, new copper ring, possibly new injector) I understand there is further detail around the hold-down bolt bore being 100% clean and needing to use outlined methods to ensure it is clean so the new bolt drops right in.

At a high level is my approach correct? Are you sitting there saying this guy is going to muck this up and need to buy a new engine?

Chris

MillionMileSprinter
12-01-2015, 03:24 PM
Chris, pretty much everything looks good except for the part where you say "I need a tool to remove the injector".
Once you have loosened the hold down bolt a few turns, start up the engine and rev it a bit. Maybe even go for a short drive around the block, but HOPEFULLY, the pressure from the combustion chamber will push the injector loose and you won't need an injector pulling tool. If you do use a tool, it is very difficult to get the injector back together again, and you most likely will need a new injector, whether it was bad or not to begin with.

One call a/c
12-01-2015, 03:24 PM
Just follow the steps and you'll be find. Tackle this asap as the problem will worsen


Howboutcha-

vanski
12-01-2015, 03:36 PM
Just follow the steps and you'll be find. Tackle this asap as the problem will worsen


Howboutcha-

I'm not driving it anywhere, other than to heat up the engine, until this is fixed.

I already cancelled my trip with a friend.

Can anyone by chance point me to a diagram with the different components I'll be working with. I have a pretty good idea but would like to verify.

Type2Teach, thank you. Question, so the injector always falls apart when you take it out? Darn!

MillionMileSprinter
12-01-2015, 04:33 PM
Type2Teach, thank you. Question, so the injector always falls apart when you take it out? Darn!

No. If you use the cylinder compression to pop it out or it comes out easily by hand, it remains whole. ONLY if it's so stuck that you need the removal tool do you have to dissasemble it.
I've replaced quite a few over the past few years and only two have been so stuck they needed the tool (both had advanced black death). The rest came out by loosening the injector bolt a bit and running the engine. Some took more revving than others, but they call came out by hand once the compression popped them loose.

surlyoldbill
12-01-2015, 06:53 PM
vanski, you don't need to take apart the injector to get it out (unless it's hopeless).
All kinds of tips available, but the one I had the hardest time with required quite a bit of Kroil and twisting it side to side while lifting (prying). They aren't screwed in like sparkplugs, they just sit in a smooth bore hole and are held down by that hold-down pawl and bolt. All things being right, you just remove that bolt and pawl and lift out the injector with your fingers.

vanski
12-01-2015, 07:03 PM
:thumbup: You guys are great. I'm going to go for it this evening or tomorrow evening.

I just bought a torque wrench. $80!!! But I understand it's essential so now I have one for next time or for others in the area in need.

One call a/c
12-01-2015, 07:14 PM
Make sure that engine is nice and hot. Full operating temp.


Howboutcha-

vanski
12-01-2015, 07:23 PM
Make sure that engine is nice and hot. Full operating temp.


Howboutcha-

I have Diablo Mountain out my back door. It has a section of 12%+ grade. That should do it.

Would it be okay to wrap the injector head with a rag so I don't continue to get this crap all over the place? Or am I risking a fire?!?!

One call a/c
12-01-2015, 07:28 PM
Just leave it as it is. But do cover the plastic injector head and wiring before spraying any cleaner.


Howboutcha-

surlyoldbill
12-01-2015, 08:42 PM
remember:

INCH pounds

NOT

FOOT pounds

on the torque wrench.

vanski
12-01-2015, 09:17 PM
remember:

INCH pounds

NOT

FOOT pounds

on the torque wrench.

Yep, think I got that covered. This is the one I bought - http://www.craftsman.com/craftsman-micro-clicker-torque-wrench-3-8inch-drive/p-00931423000P

Surlyoldbill - Regarding the hold-down bolt you broke in thread http://sprinter-source.com/forum/showthread.php?t=19515&page=3, what do you think the root cause there was? Looking back did you not clean out the bolt bore enough? You didn't use feet-lbs did you?

One call a/c
12-01-2015, 09:21 PM
The bolt I broke just yesterday was a torque wrench issue. It was wayyy off. I used another one and it went well.


Howboutcha-

vanski
12-01-2015, 09:31 PM
This thing is still in the box, new as can be. I think I know (no) the answer to this, is there any way to test the torque wrench? If it's new, should I trust it? I can't believe the torque tolerance spec is such people are breaking these things all the time.

vanski
12-01-2015, 09:45 PM
And by the way, it seems like everyone who has done this job has broken the hold-down bolt. Sure, I get lucky every now and again, but........... I'd love to hear from some folks who HAVEN'T broken the hold-down bolt. Or perhaps it's better to hear from folks who have broken it and learned their lesson.

The lessons-learned being (for the hold-down bolt):

+ ensure the vehicle is up to 180 degrees (minimum 20 minutes drive time)
+ use some PB Free to assist in de-siezing the bolt (mine is 'soaking' right now)
+ Clean the bolt-bore down, as Vic says, 1000%. I was going to blow the hole out with an air compressor, and then take a swab with some grease on it to get out any particulates.

Am I off here?

I better just do this job tonight otherwise I'm not going to sleep due to anxiety anyhow. :crazy:

One call a/c
12-01-2015, 09:58 PM
Hahaha. Your on the right track. If the torque wrench is new , your prob ok.


Howboutcha-

One call a/c
12-01-2015, 10:01 PM
Most of the time the bolt is broke coming out. Some like myself have broke it going in. Just make sure you can see the bottom silver of the bolt hole. And be sure to run the bolt by hand with a little wd 40 on the threads. Without the claw or injector in place


Howboutcha-

surlyoldbill
12-02-2015, 12:09 AM
easy does it coming out, don't be tempted to use an impact driver or cordless screwdriver to back it out. I have heard about people breaking them getting them out, so I used a little 1/4" ratchet, and the time that it did start getting a little more resistance I screwed it back in a couple turns, out a little further, back in, out a little further, and so on. I think that first attempt to loosen it is the danger zone, though. smooth and easy, not any sudden jerking on the wrench.

tinman
12-02-2015, 12:34 AM
Not unusual for a torque wrench to be out of calibration. You can do a quick calibration on your own. Put a socket on, place it in a vice so that the wrench is horizontal, and hang a known weight at a measured distance from the business end of the tool. For instance, if you're looking for 60 in. lb., a five pound weight at 12" should cause the wrench to release. This ignores the moment of the wrench itself, which should be inconsequential for most purposes. It will at least catch a tool that is dangerously out of spec.

vanski
12-02-2015, 01:04 AM
I have a small 1/4 inch ratchet that I bought to specifically get the crank shaft position sensor out (tight little area there). I'll use that.

T-

Going to go grab a sandwich and some oven cleaner for the final cleanup. I'll report back, hopefully with one of those nice little cheers icons.

tinman
12-02-2015, 01:29 AM
Going to go grab a sandwich and some oven cleaner for the final cleanup. I'll report back, hopefully with one of those nice little cheers icons.

Do you apply the oven cleaner with the sandwich?:thinking:

vanski
12-02-2015, 05:19 AM
:drink:

Thanks everyone. It was a bit messy in there but all seems good now. I guess time will tell how good of a job I really did, but as far as I can tell I'm on the right path. THE HOLD-DOWN BOLT CAME OUT AND WENT IN FAIRLY EASY. Nerve racking, absolutely, but nothing broke.

One call a/c
12-02-2015, 11:31 AM
Good news 👍🏻


Howboutcha-

MillionMileSprinter
12-03-2015, 07:07 PM
And by the way, it seems like everyone who has done this job has broken the hold-down bolt. Sure, I get lucky every now and again, but........... I'd love to hear from some folks who HAVEN'T broken the hold-down bolt. Or perhaps it's better to hear from folks who have broken it and learned their lesson.
The lessons-learned being (for the hold-down bolt):
+ ensure the vehicle is up to 180 degrees (minimum 20 minutes drive time)
+ use some PB Free to assist in de-siezing the bolt (mine is 'soaking' right now)


No, not everyone has broken the bolts. I have done quite a few (friends, neighbors, relatives, etc- yes, lots of people I know own Sprinters) and have been lucky (knock on wood) and never broken a bolt.
I have been *very* careful.
Make sure the engine is HOT.
A couple days of PB Blaster or Kroil before the procedure is helpful.
Small, short movements of the bolt.
If it feels tight as you loosen, STOP! Tighten the bolt back up again and loosen again.
Back and forth. Back and forth.
If the bolt won't even begin to get loose, break out the aerosol duster. Get the engine good and HOT and then get a can of aerosol keyboard duster TURN IT UPSIDE DOWN and spray just the head of the bolt. The stuff will come out freezing and rapidly cool the bolt down. When the bolt cools down faster than the head threads, it contracts and will give you the opportunity to unscrew it. The heat up/cool down process will eventually break it loose.
Like I said, I have used these methods and never broken a bolt. And I've done a couple dozen.

vanski
12-03-2015, 07:23 PM
Fair enough T2T; and I can now say I've done it for the first time without breaking a bolt by following your guys' approach. My comment was more geared towards reading a few different 'oh my god I have BD what do i do??' and every single thread the person broke the bolt. Two of those folks are on this thread.

Changing topic... So I cleaned out all the black stuff and everything seems to working very nicely, but, is there long-term damage to the engine by this happening in the first place?

Aqua Puttana
12-04-2015, 01:04 PM
...

Changing topic... So I cleaned out all the black stuff and everything seems to working very nicely, but, is there long-term damage to the engine by this happening in the first place?
Other than possible erosion damage to the seat with very bad cases, or possibly damage to the harness components when encapsulated with lava the posts here indicate that once repaired everything should be fine.

With subsequent inspections, as time goes by the little bit of black residue left around my injectors actually seems to be going away. Maybe it is just me being hopeful. :idunno:

Just relax now and enjoy your Sprinter.

:cheers: vic

vanski
12-04-2015, 03:30 PM
:thumbup:

Ciprian
12-04-2015, 06:43 PM
Congrats a/c and vanski. Feels good after all is said and done, doesn't it?

Thinking about this, every sprinter out there will behave differently. It's like they have different personalities.

I did mine a few years ago when the first injector decided to leak. Bolt came out nicely, but the injector was stuck. I tried every trick I could think of but it wouldn't budge. So I rented the extracting tool and I bought a new injector to have on hand, but I was determined to reuse the old injector. So I took the old injector apart, it only has like 5 pieces in there. If you are patient and remember the order that those few parts came out you will be just fine putting it all back together. The difficult part is not to loose a very very small steel ball, which I almost did, but I found it.

After cleaning everything very meticulously, I put the injector together and I wanted to make sure that it worked, so I hooked it to the rail and improvised an electrical connector then I cranked the engine. CAUTION!!! If you do this, do not get anywhere near the thing. You don't want that high pressure diesel piercing your skin. Very nasty results.

Very nice spray pattern out of the tip with each stroke of the piston, so I decided to put it in. Well, about 205k miles later and all is good. So I have a spare original brand new injector that I might never use.

So, just because you have to use a puller to get a stubborn injector out doesn't automatically render that injector useless. All it takes is some determination and elbow grease to bring it back to life.

Sent from my SM-G900P using Tapatalk

One call a/c
12-04-2015, 08:53 PM
That's good news about pulling the injectors apart. I figured if you are carful it wouldn't be an automatic replacement. Yes ciprian, it is a very accomplishing feeling for sure. One thing , I always wondered why they would use dissimilar metals for the injector sealing. Copper and Aluminum?


Howboutcha-

vanski
08-16-2016, 12:42 AM
:thumbdown: hate to resurrect this thread right now... but it looks, actually sounds, like my injector is leaking again. Fired it up a few minutes ago and sure enough I heard the psst psst pssst. Pulled the cover off and the sound was even more evident although I can't see any new 'lava' residue. definitely sounds like it's the number 1 injector which has been the ongoing culprit..

despite others having done this job once and permanately fixing it, I seem to have it coming back. Does anyone think a 2004 might be a little more prone to BD due to the fuel line high pressure release valve being put on to the 2005 - 2006 models, and not the 2004? I have that part coming to change it out, just wondering if the high pressure in the fuel line could actually be a root cause of the seal failing. Any other ideas as to why this keeps coming back on my rig?

thanks in advance.

sailquik
08-16-2016, 01:29 AM
Have you installed the TimeSert insert kit for the hold down claw bolt?
Are you using a new crush washer each time?
Is the "seat" on the head where the injector and crush washer interface cleaned up.
They make a special tool to resurface that area that guides off the injector bore.
Here's the link for the Timesert kit:
http://www.timesert.com/html/1610e2.pdf
P/N 1610E2
M6x1.0 Extended tools
This kit is typically used in Mercedes injector clamp bolt thread repair.
Commonly used in Dodge sprinter stripped injector hold down clamp bolt.
This tooling has been used in deep hole repair where the hole diameter is 8mm or .315 inches.
Last but not least are you torqueing the hold down bolt correctly?
XX foot lbs, + xx degrees
Hope this helps,
Roger

vanski
08-16-2016, 02:04 AM
Have you installed the TimeSert insert kit for the hold down claw? - No, this is news to me
Are you using a new crush washer each time? -Yes
Is the "seat" on the head where the injector and crush washer interface cleaned up. -Yes, using my dowel with course paper and making like a boy scout trying to make a fire. Will get tool!!
They make a special tool to resurface that area that guides off the injector bore.
Here's the link for the Timesert kit:
http://www.timesert.com/html/1610e2.pdf
P/N 1610E2
M6x1.0 Extended tools
This kit is typically used in Mercedes injector clamp bolt thread repair.
Commonly used in Dodge sprinter stripped injector hold down clamp bolt.
This tooling has been used in deep hole repair where the hole diameter is 8mm or .315 inches.
Last but not least are you torqueing the hold down bolt correctly?
XX foot lbs, + xx degrees -Yes
Hope this helps,
Roger

thanks Roger.. :thumbup:

vanski
08-16-2016, 11:40 PM
Roger (hopefully you're listening)... The TimeSert is only needed if I snap the bolt, correct? I haven't snapped it, YET (knocking on wood). Or, are you stating I may need a fresh sert seeing as I probably have a bunch of lava down there now in the hold down claw bolt bore?

sailquik
08-17-2016, 02:21 AM
vanski,
The idea behind the Timesert insert system is similar to Helicoil or Keen Sert.
Your OEM injector hold down bolt screws into a tapped hole in the aluminum cylinder head.
The Timesert insert increases the diameter of that thread and allows more pull out strength.
Nearly all threads that are tapped into aluminum get some sort of insert to increase the
pull out strength.
The Time sert kit will give you the tools to clean out the existing threads (they are probably weakened or damaged to some degree or your injector would not be coming loose enough to give you the leakage (black death) and retap your existing cylinder head without removing it from the engine.
The retapped (larger than original) aluminum threads with the Timesert screwed in fully will eliminate some of the "give" of the OEM original aluminum threads, increasing the pressure on the clam and keeping your injector (s) fully seated/sealed.
You are using a full set of new injector hold down bolts.....right?
Once they are stretched to the install torque + 90 deg (??) they won't stretch or
hold the same pressure as a new bolt.
Hope this helps,
Roger

vanski
08-17-2016, 04:15 AM
[QUOTE=sailquik;479559]vanski,
The idea behind the Timesert insert system is similar to Helicoil or Keen Sert.
Your OEM injector hold down bolt screws into a tapped hole in the aluminum cylinder head.
The Timesert insert increases the diameter of that thread and allows more pull out strength.
Nearly all threads that are tapped into aluminum get some sort of insert to increase the
pull out strength.
The Time sert kit will give you the tools to clean out the existing threads (they are probably weakened or damaged to some degree or your injector would not be coming loose enough to give you the leakage (black death) and retap your existing cylinder head without removing it from the engine.
The retapped (larger than original) aluminum threads with the Timesert screwed in fully will eliminate some of the "give" of the OEM original aluminum threads, increasing the pressure on the clam and keeping your injector (s) fully seated/sealed.
You are using a full set of new injector hold down bolts.....right?
Once they are stretched to the install torque + 90 deg (??) they won't stretch or
hold the same pressure as a new bolt.
Hope this helps,
Roger[/QUOTE

Thanks Roger. Yes, I've always used new bolts:

Darn, I was hoping I wouldn't have to fork out another $100+ bucks!

Yes, makes sense the original threads in the hold down bolt bore would be weekened by now.

Aqua Puttana
08-17-2016, 11:03 AM
Am I missing something?

Has the bolt been found to be stripped in the head? Was there a problem with the first replacement?

If no, then I would have a set of new seals and bolts on hand, remove the leaking injector, carefully inspect the seat, clean as needed and if found to be ok, re-install the injector with a new seal/bolt.

Removing the injector should go well being that it was recently removed.

Do NAS aka NAFTA 2004's have more seal failures than other years? I haven't noticed a trend. That said, I haven't been looking for that either.

Sometimes repairs just don't last as one would hope.

vic

sailquik
08-17-2016, 01:03 PM
Vic,
Look at post # 136.
He has repaired the #1 injector at least once before, with a new hold down bolt on the claw, seems to be using the correct
torque values/angles and the #1 injector is leaking again.
Yes the Timesert is normally used for a broken off bolt and the mess getting the broken stub out of the aluminum threads in the
cylinder head makes, but since this one continues to have issues, adding the Timesert may fix the problem permanently.
Roger

vanski
08-17-2016, 02:17 PM
I was reading Dr A bulletin on proper NEW hold down torque values and he said although the 'manual' suggests 62 in/lbs plus 90 degrees, it's best to be 62 in/lbs plus 180. BUT folks have been breaking them at that torque level mostly due to the hold down bore not being clean.

I'd feel much better about going to the 62 plus 180 if I thoroughly cleaned the bore and put the TS in as recommended by Roger.

I'm a little worried about drilling at all in my head, especially near the water jacket, but perhaps I can find another piece of aluminum to conduct a test run.

Thanks guys

Midwestdrifter
08-17-2016, 02:39 PM
I would check the head sealing surface for imperfections. Combustion gasses can erode the surface. If that is the case, then a new washer will start leaking eventually. The fix is to cut/grind/sand the seal face smooth again.

Aqua Puttana
08-17-2016, 02:43 PM
One repair.

Vic,
Look at post # 136.
He has repaired the #1 injector at least JUST once before, with a new hold down bolt on the claw, seems to be using the correct
torque values/angles and the #1 injector is leaking again.
...
Unless there was concrete evidence of the threads being stripped I wouldn't be drilling into a good head no matter how easy the repair appears.

Standing alone, one return leak doesn't spell disaster to me.

Maybe prep was deficient. Maybe the new seal was flawed. The torque wrench may be off calibration. There could be many reasons other than a stripped thread.

I was reading Dr A bulletin on proper NEW hold down torque values and he said although the 'manual' suggests 62 ft/lbs inch/lbs plus 90 degrees, it's best to be 62 ft/lbs inch/lbs plus 180. BUT folks have been breaking them at that torque level mostly due to the hold down bore not being clean.

...
So why not 62 ft/lbs inch/lbs plus 135 degrees? A little bit more, but not as scary.

Have you checked the torque wrench against another to assure calibration?

What is there to lose by inspection then trying another new seal and bolt?

vic

Added:
I believe that most broken new bolts can be attributed to the threaded blind hole not being completely cleaned out. I have no data.

vanski
08-17-2016, 03:37 PM
So this will by my third time going at it with the #1 injector guys. I must admit that I haven't had the appropriate tools in the past to thoroughly clean the injector bore. My second time I did do a much better job, and it lasted a good 20k miles compared to the first go which only lasted like 200 miles.

I have this tool set on the way - https://www.amazon.com/Universal-Injector-Seat-Cleaning-Kit/dp/B012UUDP9A and have now spent a bunch of time watching videos on how people use this tool set to properly clean the bore and most importantly the bottom of the bore out where the NEW copper seal is. In the past I was apprehensive to do too much cleaning because I was afraid of debris getting down into the motor, but this kit has an appropriate plug which can be put in and then extracted.

Regarding the hold down bolt bore, at this point there has been a bunch of lava which has oozed its way down into the hold down bolt bore. I'm very worried there might be so much carbon deposits down in bolt bore that it may not seat properly, especially after taking it out for the third time. I've read up on methods to clean the bolt bore such as taking a piece of copper tubing, putting an appropriately sized drill bit through, and then inserting into the bolt bore and LIGHTLY drilling the bottom to clean the gunk out. And then of course there's the old hold down bolt with a cut in it to get the threads cleaned out followed by a thin cylindrical wire brush to tidy it up properly.

I think whether or not I use the time-sert (also in the mail) is going to depend on how I feel the morning I get up. I agree that I'm not excited at all about the thought of actually drilling out my head!!!

Hopefully all will go well this time around and folks who have this happen in the future will see my experience and realize there is a level of thoroughness which needs to be exercised otherwise the issue will come back.

Midwestdrifter
08-17-2016, 03:51 PM
If you get some crap in the cylinder, just crank the engine briefly with the camshaft sensor unplugged and a tube/catch can on the injector line. The pressure will easily blow most of the crap out of the cylinder. A blast of compressed air will also work if the exhaust valve is open.

vanski
08-17-2016, 03:53 PM
Thanks MWD.. Just wondering, why would the camshaft sensor need to be unplugged?

tropico
08-17-2016, 08:20 PM
62 inch pounds ... not foot pounds

sailquik
08-17-2016, 08:31 PM
Vanski,
You would unplug the Camshaft sensor so the engine won't start up and run with the injector out.
You would just spin the motor over at starter speed.
Roger

vanski
08-17-2016, 08:36 PM
potentially devastating errors we made here in our words.. folks should go back and edit their posting if possible. 62 foot pounds will without a doubt sheer the hold down bolt!!