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View Full Version : Turbo resonator melting and LHM issues....


1reddog48
05-07-2015, 01:02 PM
Hi gang, got a question (or questions....)
I'm working a friends '04 T1N, 175K miles. He was having a minor LHM situation under heavy (and I mean heavy, borderline abusive IMO, but not my truck) which could be reset by turning the rig off and restarting. Another shop scanned it and came up with a low boost code and found a cracked turbo resonator. They replaced it about 8K miles ago with a Taiwanese made unit, also did an oil change.
Symptoms have persisted, in addition to "oil can" appearing and dash saying "HI" (not hello..)
I got the truck in , drained 2 quarts of oil out to bring oil level to high mark. Changed extremely dirty air filter and cleaned (including removing bits of leaves from improperly installed air filter) MAF. Truck seemed to be fixed until the owner "tested" it and got it to go into LHM under WFO throttle and basically holding it there until LHM resulted.
So yesterday, I changed the fuel filter (had about 20K miles on it) and noticed oil accumulating on the underside of the turbo resonator. It also seemed "loose" on the turbo side. I pulled it and found the o-ring to be in place, but pretty hard (Taiwan origin again?) and the interior of the unit to be melted. Not completely gone, but significantly melted...:thinking:
So I am thinking that maybe the melted plastic has now clogged, at some level, the intercooler. I have a aluminum resonator replacement coming, and will test after it is installed, but has anyone ever seen a turbo resonator melt? If so, did it condemn the intercooler?
Any and all input is appreciated!

Aqua Puttana
05-07-2015, 01:47 PM
...
Any and all input is appreciated!
Pictures after you replace would be interesting to see.

Melted?

Just distorted, or does it look like it got stringy as the melted parts elongated and separated?

Just an opinion.
It would take quite a bit of melting for pieces to be broken loose to travel further along in the system. That is said with having never seen the TR in question.

vic

1reddog48
05-07-2015, 01:54 PM
I'll pics pics when I replace it. Yes, melted like stringy. Looks kind of like a lava flow in there. UI doubt that enough material was sent downstream to clog the IC, but ya never know...
The interior is so distorted that under WFO throttle apps, it would disturb the air flow, once again, I just don't know how much.
Does DAS have a "turbo efficiency" data stream?

Aqua Puttana
05-07-2015, 02:23 PM
...
Does DAS have a "turbo efficiency" data stream?
I'm not familiar with the DAS units, but it must have turbo pressure and probably has mass air flow in live data. The ECM also monitors/compares flow while the engine is operating by using the various sensors. That is how it notices small leaks like the split turbo seam. The turbo is capable of supplying proper raw pressure to overcome such a small leak. I believe that it's the controls/monitoring that notice the slight difference over expected performance.

I would visually inspect the down stream side of the charge air system when the melted TR is removed. If there isn't any evidence of bits in that area then likely the melted parts didn't travel into the system.

vic

1reddog48
05-07-2015, 03:07 PM
No sign of melted bits in the rubber hose, but the inside of the TR looks somewhat like cooled molten lava....
http://n-e-r-v-o-u-s.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2013/03/8488122404_8850fea0af_z-600x397.jpg

sailquik
05-07-2015, 03:53 PM
Question #1 here would seem to be WHY the temperature at the turbo outlet got high enough to melt the
interior baffles in even an aftermarket cheapo turbo resonator????
Might be some sort of issue with the intake air ducting that is causing some restriction in the ambient air
flow to the turbocharger intake.
Or, the aftermarket cheapo TR was cast in the wrong grade of plastic altogether.
Since you are in the Rocky Mountains, at elevation, does this Sprinter travel up and down the grades all the
time heavily loaded?
Does the owner/driver know that just hammering the throttle on the upgrades in 5th gear (0.83:1 overdrive)
@ < 2400 RPM is not good for the engine.
It's a TRUCK, with a 5 speed gearbox.....TRUCKS are nearly always manually downshifted to keep the RPM
up in the best performance/best fuel mileage range.
That does require that the driver manually downshift out of overdrive (5th gear) and get the revs up in the
2700-3200 range where the OM-647 makes it's best power and gets it's best fuel mileage when pulling up
a grade.
Might be so heavily loaded that the driver needs to slow down a bit and downshift to 3rd gear.
3200 RPM (4.182:1 rear dif ratio) is still 40 mph which should get the driver past some of the 18 wheelers
hauling heavy in the truck lane.
Also, running 2 quarts over filled on the engine oil could have plugged up several things (how the heck did that happen?).
Perhaps a change in driving habits (I.E. running @ < 100% engine Load by manually downshifting to 4th or 3rd gears)
would keep the entire drivetrain a whole lot nearer the optimum values for pulling up grades with a heavily loaded
Sprinter.
Not sure WHAT to make of this statement:
"Truck seemed to be fixed until the owner "tested" it and got it to go into LHM under WFO throttle and basically holding it there until LHM resulted."
Was the engine loaded either by standing on the brakes and running it against torque converter "slip"; pulling up a long uphill grade in too high a gear at too few RPM.....or did he just rev it without a load?
Any of the above "tests" are guaranteed to do more harm than good!
Why on earth would anyone ever do that?
The Riordanco TR eliminator will solve the TR issues, but may not correct everything that bad driving and maintenance issues
have done to the engine.
Hope this helps,
Roger

lindenengineering
05-07-2015, 04:55 PM
A word about automotive plastics.
There is a measured amount of nylon in the polymer.

The secret is to add enough flexibility without sacrificing durability and have sufficient resistance to heat variations which can be enormous.
Now when we come to aftermarket parts obviously the standards can vary from manufacturer to manufacturer.

As will all non OE parts those standard can be near to the real thing or very poorly made.
What appears to be the case here is a poorly made part which cannot withstand the heat from the turbo blow pressure activity in service.

Be thankful it was not a piston!
Dennis

1reddog48
05-07-2015, 05:17 PM
Owner "test" was done while driving on a relatively level piece of highway. LHM resulted at approx 72 MPH.
I agree with every sentiment that the abusive driving is indeed not how to operate the vehicle and detrimental to it's overall well being. However, not my truck and you can lead a horse to water, but you can't make him drive in a sane manner....

kjg912
05-07-2015, 05:30 PM
The Turbo Resonator seems to be one of the weakest links in T1N Sprinters, and the first thing I did after purchase - after seeing that my TR had already been replaced at least once before 70k miles and reading about TR problems here on the T1N forum, was to eliminate this pesky part! I have done a few more things in the next 2 1/2 years and 35k miles, but this was one that is easily fixed!

L8RSK8R
05-08-2015, 03:12 AM
I had 2 oem resonator failures, within 25k miles..ordered a Riordanco resonator & installed myself. No issues with 130k miles.

lindenengineering
05-08-2015, 01:46 PM
I'll pics pics when I replace it. Yes, melted like stringy. Looks kind of like a lava flow in there. UI doubt that enough material was sent downstream to clog the IC, but ya never know...
The interior is so distorted that under WFO throttle apps, it would disturb the air flow, once again, I just don't know how much.
Does DAS have a "turbo efficiency" data stream?

I cannot vouch for that!
But even Snappy will show boost pressure at idle and full throttle under load.
Being a bit slow its hard to see all that's going on but a factory style scanner will show live data as it happens.
This is a must after repairing the intake system.

Essentially scoot the beast up the road and see what's going on!
850/900 millibars at 6500ft . 1850mb flat scat !
If you get above 2000 it will go into over boost condition. (possibly go into over boost limp) The reason--- well one of them to test!
If it still keeps climbing its time to investigate!

"cos if you don't it!!! --Well the resonator life CAN be severely reduced (even if OE) and leave the whole system up to yet an early failure. Sound familiar??

As a footnote!
Guys
Luckily in Colorado we have "luverly grades" that sort the automotive men from the boys.
Crikey the climb to the Eisenhower-Johnson tunnel (@10-6) is brutal! Vehicle hitherto seemingly to run well across the central plain HIT the big wall of the Divide.

There is a grade at Genessee, west bound on I/70 that really messes with anything and its my test route. A Friday in the PM especially in summer with have a steaming/fuming /smoking line on the hard shoulder. Poor old RV's are the worst having been de -mothballed and made to do their thing across the US
Tow trucks stampeding out of Golden like the 5th cavalry the sight of green money !
Most of course "out of staters".
Keeps my shop busy at the weekends in summer at Camping World's RV parking . Keeps kids in expensive grad schools too!
Keep trucking along.
Cheers Dennis

1reddog48
05-09-2015, 11:44 AM
So here is another question...
First, there is no doubt, IMO, that the manner in which the truck is abusive, but is it destructive?

One problem that I have with trying to fix this issue is that I am not willing to drive the rig like the owner does, hence the thought that I had it fixed after the first attempt. At 175K miles on the truck, I think it would be asking for trouble....

Should the safeguard systems designed into the T1N software limit RPM, boost, speed and such in such a way that the system does not NEED to go into LHM?

Aqua Puttana
05-09-2015, 02:04 PM
So here is another question...
First, there is no doubt, IMO, that the manner in which the truck is abusive, but is it destructive?

One problem that I have with trying to fix this issue is that I am not willing to drive the rig like the owner does, hence the thought that I had it fixed after the first attempt. At 175K miles on the truck, I think it would be asking for trouble....

Should the safeguard systems designed into the T1N software limit RPM, boost, speed and such in such a way that the system does not NEED to go into LHM?

Certainly there are controls and monitors designed into the computer that are intended to avoid or limit damage. Can they be depended upon to stop the negative effects of truly abusive operation? :idunno: Generally speaking control designs are intended to work within reasonable parameters. Trusting it to control abusive operation is not something which I would want to test.vic

vic

1reddog48
05-11-2015, 07:32 PM
Got the replacement resonator installed today. So far, so good...
Here are a couple pics of the one i took off. I know this looks like filthy greasy residue or carbon, but it is the melted interior of the resonator:
http://photos.imageevent.com/reddog/misc/websize/P1060441.JPG

http://photos.imageevent.com/reddog/misc/websize/P1060446.JPG

So much for Taiwanese replacement resonators....

1reddog48
05-11-2015, 11:40 PM
So not such good news. It now goes in to LHM even easier than before. Comes up with a "low Boost" code, DAS 2359-001
Fair amount of oily residue around the hose exiting the intercooler, but can't find any other obvious issues....
Color me confused.

1reddog48
05-12-2015, 09:44 PM
And the plot thickens...
After removing and inspecting all the hoses between the turbo and the intake, all looks good, except the hose from the intercooler to the connector that has the sensors in it (boost and temp?) had a significant amount of oil and sludge in it. Significant being enough oil to drip out readily on the floor and about 2 tbls of heavy sludge. I decided to look at the charge vanes on the turbo (since it seems unusually "whiny") and they look kind of dusted and dull to me...
http://photos.imageevent.com/reddog/misc/websize/P1060448.JPG
http://photos.imageevent.com/reddog/misc/websize/P1060450.JPG

On a test drive, while the data stream on DAS said the anticipated boost value was 2000mbar, I could only get 1600...and if I pushed it, it would go into LHM.

So Once back at the shop, I went thru the Y100 Boost pressure regulator actuation and it would kill the truck. I could never get this test to complete successfully. I kept getting a "Repeat actuation of component Y77/1 (boost pressure control pressure transducer).
So just for more confusion, I decided to do the Y85, EGR positioner test. When running at about 1500 RPM, the boost was at about 835mbar (as i recall), when opening it (the egr positioner) as the RPM dropped, once it got to 770mbar, the engine started to stumble and would die unless I closed the positioner.

Now I swear I did this test yesterday and the truck did not die and gave me values that stayed within the 25mbar acceptable variance....

Now I'm really confused.

lindenengineering
05-13-2015, 01:33 AM
Doug
Unless my eyes are deceiving me those impellor blades look mighty worn .
You should be seeing 1770mb MB minimum at full thottle and and around 850/880 mb at idle.
Dennis

Aqua Puttana
05-13-2015, 01:52 AM
Doug
Unless my eyes are deceiving me those impellor blades look mighty worn .
You should be seeing 1770mb MB minimum at full thottle and and around 850/880 mb at idle.
Dennis
Yep. They look very worn odd.

Slightly worn.

67667

"Normal" except for the groove in the body.

67668

:2cents:vic

1reddog48
05-13-2015, 02:04 AM
Many, many thanks for the intel. I had the local Matco guy (Richard, great guy with lots of smaller turbo diesel experience) here today listening to the turbo and he said it sounded wonky. Looks like he was right (confirmed by you guys).
Again, thanks for the input!
Anytime anyone is in the Gunnison area and needs help, look me up, I owe the forum a beer or three!

1reddog48
05-13-2015, 11:52 AM
OK, now anyone got suggestions on turbo rebuilders (in Colorado would be nice) or a good source for a replacement unit??

Also, any guesses on how long, in fairly dirty dusty conditions it would take to do this to a turbo. The improperly installed air filter had been in place about 8-10K miles, but not all of that was driving in a dust storm....

lindenengineering
05-13-2015, 01:23 PM
OK, now anyone got suggestions on turbo rebuilders (in Colorado would be nice) or a good source for a replacement unit??

Also, any guesses on how long, in fairly dirty dusty conditions it would take to do this to a turbo. The improperly installed air filter had been in place about 8-10K miles, but not all of that was driving in a dust storm....

Central Motive and Power in Denver will/can supply a NEW turbo.
I can't vouch for anyone else!

XS Turbo in Ohio can supply re-cons at a reasonable price but again new is competitively priced from them.

As for dust ingress and resultant wear on a turbo!
5000 miles in most cases will do it in when used in dusty unfiltered conditions!
The worst I have seen is in Tchad at about 2000 miles but dust wrecked the engine as well. A whole fleet of trucks were involved in that little mess!

I would say the install of a non specified air filter in most cases is the culprit. I have seen them deformed like a pagoda roofs or so choked that they can't simply perform. Why someone would fit a K&N then simply leave it for years without even lifting the filter lid is beyond me!
Even simple clean out in the bottom wouldn't go amiss! I have seen them so full of dirt I wonder how anyone would fit a filter and not clean the holder out.
In fact I had a Sprinter in last Monday. A Pro shop had fitted a filter but didn't clean out the base hopper. :idunno:
Laziness perhaps carelessness :idunno:
Dennis