Rough running '03

I've got an 03 Sprinter 311, 2.2l that is currently my home in the UK/EU.

Starts fine, no smoke, idles great, but then if you rev to about 1500 and then let it idle, it kind of hesitates a little, then idles REALLY rough (reminds me of my old Subaru when it would clog a spark plug).

It has a brand new air filter and pulls/revs pretty much as usual after 1500. The thing that has me stumped for diagnosis is that it's only sometimes a problem. Drove 2 hours yesterday and it was fine one intersection, shakes off the line at the next. Doesn't like parking/low speed stuff when it's being shakey, like a power loss.

It's getting a new clutch soon (slips if I punch it in 4th or 5th, and engages quick at the point where the pedal is almost all the way out, so I think it's worn right down?). It also copped a few litres of diesel on the front/engine bay when the fuel hose that goes to the rail/under intake housing popped off from a dodgy plastic clip.

So far I can think of worn clutch/flywheel (but it's not all the time e.g. On some fresh starts), injectors (which I can't afford to replace), busted crankcase vent to inlet port hose (anyone know where this f*cker is? Haynes says check the hose but stuffed if they have a pic/drawing for me), sticky turbo vanes/egr (but zero problems in higher rpm).

I'm stumped. Anything I can try/look at before I spend half my holiday budget at the local van mech? Where the fck is that second breather hose at? Am I going to fck it completely if I keep driving it?

M87.
The breather hose is near the oil filler and it goes to the air intake, but it is not your problem. most likely if its done a lot of miles is the plastic plugs that connect the wires to the injectors. On those older units I have seen cable ties around the injector and pug to hold them in. Take your cover of the top of the motor and feel if the plugs are firm, if they are pull them and clean the pins. Eric

Awesome, thanks Eric, I'll give that a go on Sunday and see if it helps. Drove another 2 hours today and for some reason, redlining it once per leg of the trip seemed to stop the rough idle/low rpm for that trip, which had me thinking EGR or sticky/sticking something? What would happen if the vanes got stuck in one position?

Edit: Oh also it's done 137,000 miles is that what you'd call a lot?

How old is the fuel filter? It may be a bit clogged- fine at letting lower amounts of fuel through, but when the engine wants more fuel, it just can't quite deliver.

Hey type2teach, fuel filter is recent (last 4 weeks or so). Problem is that it'll go from 1500 to redline about 4000ish with no problem, it just gets the shakes big time below that. I know the power band starts at about 1800rpm, but I often find myself car park/caravan park navigating below that, shuddering along, plus just the really rocky idle.

Thinking of putting a bottle of fuel system cleaner through, but there seems to be a lot of horror posts starting with "So I put some fuel cleaner through and...". Anyone had good experiences with cleaners?

M87.
From your description it is a problem with one cylinder cutting out, EGR problems would effect all cylinders, Not that I have ever seen an 03 with EGR. Its not a dirty fuel problem it is far to consistent for that. If its not an electrical connection to the injector it could be a rub through on the loom to the injectors. Your miles are not excessive for that model. Eric

Thanks Eric, just noticed (on a local roundabout) that my horn has stopped working too - think the elec/rub through may be related? I thought the horn might have been knocked while changing air filter but can't see that it'd be the case. Where should I look for rubbing?

Strange how it was good yesterday, worse after adding injector cleaner :/

I guess I really need to get that cover off to check the injector wiring but I don't have a replacement gasket for the intake manifold. Is it one of those seals they recommend you replace but you can get away with carefully putting the old one back?

Edit: I should also probably add that the glow plug light has been on as long as I've had it. No worries starting cold though, and ran fine with it on.

m87 said:

I guess I really need to get that cover off to check the injector wiring but I don't have a replacement gasket for the intake manifold. Is it one of those seals they recommend you replace but you can get away with carefully putting the old one back?

Edit: I should also probably add that the glow plug light has been on as long as I've had it. No worries starting cold though, and ran fine with it on.

Click to expand...

No new gasket needed for the plastic cover you'll remove to check the injector wiring.

Hi there,

I will be very surprised if a EU spec Sprinter 4cyl 2.2 will have any EGR ! so I would discount anything to do with that totally

Personally before I looked further I would like to see a rail pressure test (or at least a look at live data with a reader) as in the past when I have seen this it was down to deteriorating performance of the High Pressure mechanical fuel pump at low RPMs, - poor delivery at low engine speed, as soon as you got is spinning it worked fine.

Gave me the run around for a while as I assumed (wrongly) that this would also give starting problems. The fact is the pressure required for a start condition is quite low in relative terms, and initial cranking FP has to be really bad to prevent at least a start condition.

This was 311 Luton body MY04.

All the best
Steve

Do you have an air leak in the fuel system? My 2002 did (easy to see in the clear fuel lines join that vintage Sprinter). If so, on mine it was the water sensor on the filter. I bought filters that don't have openings for this sensor on it, and my problem cleared up.

If you have an air leak, with the engine running, you'll see that your Diesel looks white instead of a solid see thru color in the clear plastic fuel line coming off of the fuel filter.

Thanks tinman - don't I need to get the black upper-intake bit off to get at the torx screws for the crankcase cover? Haynes manual says to but then I don't exactly trust their info for the most part.

Steve, glad to hear about the EGR, but apparently on the 2.2l there's one at the rear of the upper-inlet manifold? If that was sticky would it explain the chugging below 1500 though? I'll ask the garage Monday if they can do a fuel pressure test though.

Jmoller, it used to have an air leak, it was a little T junction in a fuel pipe for the webasto heater on the supply line. Over tightened hose clips were to blame for that, but that was fixed up three weeks back, no issues losing power since then, and clear fuel in the lines at the moment.

Drove 3 hours on it today, was worse today than other days, had to start-roll along the backed up motorway (where normally I'd idle along fine).
Noticed my dash clock also having problems keeping time, lost 3 hours somewhere. Might be part of a bigger electrical fault?

m87 said:

Thanks tinman - don't I need to get the black upper-intake bit off to get at the torx screws for the crankcase cover? Haynes manual says to but then I don't exactly trust their info for the most part.

Click to expand...

Sorry - my comment was for the T1N 347 engine. I'm not familiar with the layout on yours. Haynes is doubtless correct.

Bummer - upper half of inlet manifold needs to come off. Anyone know if you can get away with not using a new o-ring set on reassembly?

M78.
You were warned about injector cleaner but you still put it in/////. Look at the way the wiring is done, you will see two looms, one goes to the glow plugs and then to the glow plug relay, the other is to the injectors and sensors, this is the one to look at. Look where it contacts the head, any evidence of movement should be checked out. If you find a suspect spot just work some plastic tape between the loom and the metal. If you are not to clumsy you should be able to reuse the gaskets. Eric.

Thanks Eric, haha yeah, the hope that a dissolvable blockage was to blame was too good to resist! I guess though, it might indicate whatever's causing the misfire is making it idle rich rather than lean? Or not, could have loosed more gunk and now runs leaner!

Will check these looms after lunch. I was just under there and noticed a hose about 12mm OD, coming out the back of the engine... It goes nowhere and has an oily slick to it. Looks like a dump hose/breather for overfilling. Could this be the mysterious second crankcase vent that the Haynes manual is suggesting results in rough running?

Didn't get a chance to check yesterday (no tools!) but should have some today.

Played with idle/rpm today and seem to have figured a pattern. Fresh start is either rough or fine, varies. Revving to 2000+ and letting rpm drop will settle into a smooth idle, 95% of the time, today at least. Revving to less than 1500-1800 and letting rpm drop (foot off accel quick) will settle into to rough idle, 80% of the time.

I don't have any experience with elec faults so not keeping my hopes up for my attempt this afternoon, but are we sure it sounds elec for sure? Don't want the garage tomorrow pulling injectors and things on a knee-jerk diagnosis if the symptoms don't match...

Gave in and bought myself some tools, pulled the injector cover off for the first time ever...

Nice and clean!

Poked, prodded and wiggled all the wires, they're looking to be in ok condition. One injector had a busted clip, then I busted another, but they're all clean connections and seals, couldn't make out any corrosion, just plain goldy-copper. Cable tied the busted ones back on for good measure.

There is a fair bit (everything coated inside) of thin black oil in the intercooler-to-intake pipe and upper intake manifold, is that normal? Some leaks out of the end of the upper intake manifold, and seemingly, from where the intake pipe meets the manifold (thin, dark oil on the crankcase and runs down the side). I thought it might be the injectors, but it's on top of the injector cover (thankfully?).

Thought low vac might be stopping the actuator and vanes from behaving, but I agree with Eric Experience, seems to be too one-cylinder for a turbo problem?

It sharted black oil this morning on a cold rev on the way to get it's roadworthy (horn fault wasn't wiring, it was a busted clockspring). Hasn't done that before that I've noticed, although I do usually let it tick over for a few mins every morning. Revved it cold again this afternoon, smells oily/rich but didn't shart.

Did some more "testing" and it will idle rough when dropped from under 2500rpm and idle fine when dropped from above that (mostly, but not always). It'll also run rough and knock (like someone hitting something with a spanner) under load when under 1800 rpm and sometimes faint knocking can be heard then and up to about 3500.

Pics of injectors here: http://imgur.com/a/wO91N

Farrrrrrrrrrrrrrrk. Any other sensors/loom hotspots, or theories I can check?



Edit: The rearward 3 injectors have a "2" written on them, but the frontmost one has a "3" written on it. Normal? Irrelevant?

M87.
That wiring looks very bad, There should be a woven nylon cloth over the wires right up to the plugs. You should not be able to see the wires. It looks like some one has tried to fix it with plastic tape. Best you remove the loom from the motor if you can and examine each wire for rubs. Have you got a local wrecker you could go to to see a normal loom?. Eric

Ah, might do then - I wonder if there's wreckers in Germany? Good news that it looks like they've tried to fix it, that means it's been fiddled with, and might be at least a starting point for finding a problem. Some of it is electrical tape, and some is like thick heat-shrink wrapping.

Ran 2 hours on Wednesday. Was awful for about 20-30 mins in town, then up a hill it seemed to just decide that it was going to run fine. No knocking, no rough idle/takeoff. Was great.

Ran a few hours (5+?) today from Dover through to mid-Netherlands. Was shaky on and off the train but not super bad, then the most of the rest was 110-130 km/h. Had a shaky bit through Antwerp though, but was fine for half of the stop-start bits.

Filled a 95% fresh tank of the BP Ulitmate premium stuff to see if that changed anything - seemed to knock/rattle less when taking off, but still idles ****e. Theory could be that whatever short/voltage leak is messing with the injectors is slightly rich, and the better fuel has less issues igniting?

Alternative is taking it to a German merc shop/diagnostics specialist, but although I'm more than happy to pay ransom for a fix, I prefer to do as much fault confirmation as possible on my own dime! Next time I get a chance to get under the manifold, is there a way to check the wiring without pulling the fuel lines off and ripping out the whole loom/casing? Like putting pins through the wires and testing on a multimeter?

M87.
The problem with testing with a meter is you do not know if the fault is on or off. You could try lifting the loom just a few mm and pulling in a piece of cloth between the loom and the head. Eric.