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Diamondsea
04-15-2014, 03:01 PM
The Advanced RV Fest is open to owners of all types of RVs and to any folks who are interested in the RV lifestyle. See Class B RVs being built, listen to presentations by experts, and enjoy a party atmosphere with great food and fun. Dry camping is available at the factory location and for others there are nearby hotels. There is still time to register -- see: advanced-rv.com.

Old Crows
04-15-2014, 04:03 PM
Where???? When????

Diamondsea
04-15-2014, 09:21 PM
The Fest is May 2 to 4 at the Advanced factory near Cleveland, Ohio. All details are on the website advanced-rv.com. Just click on the link at the bottom of the picture on the home page.

Davydd
04-18-2014, 12:15 AM
We decided last week to attend. Then we will head on to Indy for the inaugural Indianapolis Grand Prix Indy Car race.

Diamondsea
04-22-2014, 04:09 AM
To whet your appetite for the Advanced RV Fest take a look at the TV segment produced by Rollin' On. Total segment is 25 minutes; the part about Advanced RV is 18 minutes with a short commercial break at 10 minutes. Much discussion is about how progressive the business is and their innovations in their RVs and how the team operates. How many companies have no sick leave or vacation policies? When you are sick you don't come to work! When you want or need a vacation you go! The team builds every Class B as a semi custom vehicle to the customers' desires.

The link is: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zXmlG0wJClM&feature=youtu.be

There is still time to plan to attend the Advanced RV Fest on May 2-4. Go to their website advanced-rv.com for all information. Wannabes and all types of RVs are invited to this event at their factory where dry camping is available. Arrangements can be made at local hotels for anyone interested in seeing how they are built as touched upon in the Rollin' On video.

Shoot them an email or give them a call.

Diamondsea
04-22-2014, 11:36 PM
Detailed Fest Schedule Released

Go to Advanced-RV.com and click on the link at the bottom of the main photo. Speakers and subjects are identified.

Davydd
05-06-2014, 03:33 AM
Advanced RV Advanced Fest was an enjoyable sociable and informative experience. There were several people there who were wanna Bs or had other brand Bs like us (Great West Van), Winnebago ERA, MB Cruiser, and even a DIY B. There were potential customers, customers in waiting and there were Advance RV owners there like Diamondsea himself. The owner of the very first Advanced RV came from Colorado and the owner of the much publicized dog kennel designed RV was there. So we all got to see some already on the road Bs plus several being built including a B with an incredible sound system for a jazz musician. They were all being built custom to the owners' desires. I will say this. Regardless of costs you will not find a better built Class B RV, period.

pattonsr
05-06-2014, 05:43 AM
Did Advanced RV say anything about power generation via a second alternator/generator? Did they discuss their ideas on solar panels?

Davydd
05-07-2014, 02:52 AM
Did Advanced RV say anything about power generation via a second alternator/generator? Did they discuss their ideas on solar panels?

They are putting a second alternator in. They feel you can run the engine on high idle for about 3 hours with a break between idle sessions of actually driving for at least 40 minutes.

They have designs right now for up to 500W of solar panels.

Diamondsea
05-07-2014, 03:04 AM
Since I own an Advanced RV I must agree with Davydd that there is nothing better built!! The Fest was a fantastic event.

Currently I am told they are doing the DC electric as follows: The standard Sprinter alternator powers just the Sprinter battery and all its stuff. Sprinter regulation is different than used on "normal" vehicles in that the alternator (on new models) is actually regulated differently. Both battery voltage and current in/out is monitored by a computer and the alternator is controlled by the CAN bus rather than normal field current control. It is actually turned off at times to save fuel when battery draw is low. The alternator itself is different and cannot be replaced by a conventional alternator. Advanced RV adds a second alternator that charges the house batteries separately so that they may be controlled by a smart multi-stage charger having bulk, absorption, and float stages. Up to 6 group 31 size batteries may be installed -- either AGMs or Lithium Iron. This arrangement permits faster charging of a house battery bank.

At the Fest Advanced RV had up and running a display of their up-and-coming new system. This also uses the separate alternator but it uses a new, larger, custom Lithium battery bank in stead of the separate group 31s. This new has larger cells where each cell is individually monitored for voltage, current and temperature and the entire battery is three stage charged. Heating is provided to keep the battery bank happy at below freezing temperatures.

Diamondsea
05-07-2014, 03:23 AM
More on the electrical: The very fast to full charge of the house batteries permits easy off-the-grid living. It also permits unattended charging for unattended air conditioning operation to keep pets comfy if the owners are away for the day. Automatic engine start is controlled by the SilverLeaf coach computer system when a settable low battery voltage is reached. Cell phone long range roof antennas with internal WiFi are fitted. A phone app can monitor everything including temperature, and the engine for generation may be manually started remotely.

Low profile roof solar cells are used. No roof space is wasted; Advanced now has a custom A/C shroud with solar cells.

pattonsr
05-07-2014, 05:40 AM
Diamondsea,

You said a second alternator is used to charge the house batteries. Where does the multi-stage charger get involved? I assume you are not talking about the Outback inverter/charger but something else.

At one time Advanced RV was looking at a MEPS system which ends up acting like a generator which feeds the Outback. I thought they had eliminated MEPS as a contender and were looking at a second alternator. Do they have a multi-stage regulator that feeds the house bank directly?

Davydd
05-07-2014, 12:08 PM
Some things we learned:

You cannot bulk charge lithium ion batteries below freezing temps because you will destroy the batteries. Advanced RV is developing an insulated battery box with heating pads.

The Outback pure sine wave converter/charger they use has built in surge protection when connected to shore power.

The city water connection has a built in pressure regulator so you don't have to add one to your hose.

All lighting is LED. How much so? They even supplied Nova Kool the LED lights to install in the refrigerator.

They are starting a rental B company. I think the first renting couple left right at the end of the Fest.

There is not much they don't research and try to improve. They had several vans there. There is a base system and design but just about every van was custom to a high extent. The customer has a lot of say in what they want. The downside is it is a long time process from conception to delivery unless one can be satisfied with one of the few spec Bs they build. Even then a few customers had those already built spec Bs extensively modified.

pattonsr
05-07-2014, 03:43 PM
Davydd,

The Outback is a inverter/charger, not a cheap converter/charger.

Davydd
05-07-2014, 09:17 PM
Inverter, converter, typing dyslexia. :)

Diamondsea
05-08-2014, 01:11 AM
Diamondsea,

You said a second alternator is used to charge the house batteries. Where does the multi-stage charger get involved? I assume you are not talking about the Outback inverter/charger but something else.

At one time Advanced RV was looking at a MEPS system which ends up acting like a generator which feeds the Outback. I thought they had eliminated MEPS as a contender and were looking at a second alternator. Do they have a multi-stage regulator that feeds the house bank directly?

I will try to clarify some. First, I believe I have the only Advanced RV built without the second alternator. This was at my request based on my decades of power management on boats. I simply prefer to try to limit power use. For charging my four group 31 batteries I prefer direct connection to the Sprinter chassis battery so that almost the full power of the standard 220 amp alternator is available as the van itself normally uses little power. My experience with boats and Sprinters is that when underway I usually go for three hours minimum which seems to get the batteries almost fully charged. The last 5 to 10 percent is maybe missed but the batteries end up fully charged when I can plug into shore power. On my Advanced RV a big ass relay controlled by the SilverLeaf computer system closes to do the job when SilverLeaf detects that the Sprinter battery is up to a certain voltage - I think about 13.2 (it is settable). My previous Sprinter DIY camper had a similar system where I simply connected the two systems together with a Blue Sea Automatic Charge Relay.

Now to most Advanced RVs having the second alternator. Your comment about a MEPS now has me thinking that perhaps I am confused as to their current practice. Perhaps they are using such and somehow supplying AC volts to the Outback which makes DC volts to charge the batteries; the Outback having 3-stage regulation. Perhaps others reading this can chime in to clarify this. I do know that the new demo system up and running for the Fest had a small 3-stage regulator box. Obviously contacting Advanced RV could clarify this.

By the way the willingness of Advanced RV to set up my system the way I wanted it with only one alternator shows their attitude to do things semi-custom to meet the owners' desires.

Diamondsea
05-08-2014, 01:30 AM
A couple of clarifications: On my vehicle at least, if connected to city water there is no failure prone regulator valve; the high city water pressure does not reach all the plumbing. It only goes to a simple on/off valve controlled by the SilverLeaf computer "Auto Fill" feature. When touching the Auto Fill on the SilverLeaf screen the valve opens to fill the water tank and it shuts off automatically or you can shut it off manually by touching the screen. This last permits partially filling the tank if desired.

Up until now Advanced has as a standard feature internally installed an expensive electrical surge protector of the type available to use at the power post in line with your power cord. Internal installation prevents theft of an external device hanging on the power post. These protectors also have a couple of minutes delay to prevent instant reapplication of power to protect air conditioner compressors after a drop out. There was an Outback rep at the Fest and in a discussion I had with him I learned that Outback has an option for their own add on surge protector. I pointed this out to management and Advanced will decide if they want to eliminate the separate device and use the Outback option for new vans. Anyone interested I suggest you ask Advanced.

Davydd
05-08-2014, 12:26 PM
Diamondsea, you clearly know the details. I'm a generalist in wanting to know regardless of what or how Advanced RV does it I will ever be dangling a high priced piece of surge protection out on a post. They did just learn themselves they needn't have to even add one inside the van since Outback could incorporate the surge protection. One thing to know. They don't go by model years. If there are improvements to be made they go into the next van on the line it seems. I was their first visitor two years ago. I gave them many suggestions at the time, you continued that spirit with your B as have many others. Now I am glad I hesitated two years with so many developments that came along. In two more years I might be envious once again. The 4 x 4 drive is the one big thing coming that has me in a tither.

pattonsr
05-08-2014, 03:12 PM
I question relying only on surge protection from the Outback FLEXware surge protector that is designed to protect the Outback inverter/charger from high voltages. A built-in Surgeguard is cheap protection from all the pedestal wiring problems as well as power transient surges. If one has a transfer switch then the Surgeguard protects it. Not sure if a transfer switch is involved if a generator is not specified. But until Advanced RV documents in detail how they are doing the battery bank charging from the second alternator, we can only speculate.

I would hate to have the Outback fried due to a lightning strike. The coach is totally dead if the Outback has problems. Everything is run from the Outback including the AC and microwave. I prefer layered protection. Let the inexpensive Surgeguard ($282 with remote) take the first big hit and what still gets by can be handled by the Outback surge protector (around $200). The expensive Outback VFX2812M (around $2,000) has two layers of protection so it will probably survive.

Plus I do not think the Outback FLEXware does all the checking that the Surgeguard does before allowing power in (mis-wired pedestal, low voltage, etc.) The Surgeguard has a nice remote that shows status and detailed error codes. Unless Silverleaf supports the Outback error lights, one would have to look at the simple error lights on the FLEXware that is usually attached to the Outback inverter/charger which may not be readily accessible in the middle of the night. Besides all they will tell you is that there is a problem.

Davydd
05-09-2014, 02:00 AM
It is all speculation right now. Advanced RV just learned from the Outback rep that came to Advanced Fest last weekend that there is or could be built in surge protection. I doubt they have even investigated it yet let alone make any decisions. They are and have been installing surge protectors inside the van. The question is anyone else doing that?

bobojay
05-09-2014, 02:39 AM
You guys sound like you had a very informative, for you and Advanced, "rally". Maybe if these get very popular Mike will have to figure out a more non-dry camping experience. (my good English way of expressing it)
Looking forward to meeting Mike next week....

avanti
05-09-2014, 02:49 AM
So, has anyone actually experienced damage that a surge protector might plausibly have prevented? If so, what did the repairs cost? Modern electronics are pretty darn robust. I'm not saying that I think this whole surge-protection thing is just a bunch of hype. But it has crossed my mind.

Yes, of course it can happen. But, the real question is about cost-effectiveness. $200-400 spent to save a $2000 device may or may not be a wise investment, depending on the probabilities. Anybody have any actual data?

pattonsr
05-09-2014, 03:19 AM
If you have low voltage which is very common at rallies in the South when everyone is running air conditioning, you run the risk of shorting the life of your A/C, microwave, etc. There is much more than the inverter that can be damaged. Advanced RV's have a lot of expensive components that I would not like to replace nor deal with the repair hassle. The Silverleaf display is a $2,000 item by itself.

Diamondsea
05-09-2014, 03:29 AM
I personally have never had a noticeable electrical surge coming into an RV or boat but there is always a first time! I like the idea of the separate surge protector currently used by Advanced RV because of the two minute time delay if there is a momentary drop out. This delay can help protect from a "locked rotor" air conditioner causing blown fuses, etc. From what I saw at Advanced they are using a remote easy to see Outback status display and on current new units a remote easy to see display of the surge protector status. Who knows what they will do in the future.

avanti
05-09-2014, 12:25 PM
Be careful not to confuse surge protection with clean-power analysis. They are two completely different issues, and aren't necessarily dealt with in the same system. My erstwhile van had a Prosine 2000watt inverter/charger. It performed very sophisticated analysis of the AC power in--not just voltage, but frequency and mis-wired neutral as well. There were all kinds of alarm states for that kind of thing. I assume that other high-end inverter/chargers do the same. Used with such a system, the fancy "sequestering" of separate power-protection devices is of very questionable marginal value. I tend to think of that stuff and their corresponding blinkenlight displays as mostly histrionics. They would make more sense if used with low-end converter/chargers, however.

In my mind, the real question is surge-protection per se, which means protection from potentially damaging transients from sources such as lightening. I have already acknowledged that such things ARE possible; and, maybe they could make it past the inverter/charger (although I think that is unlikely in a modern system). I also acknowledge that if you are willing to pay whatever it takes to absolutely minimize the hassle of having your trip interrupted, then they make sense. But, I am a cost-effectiveness kind of guy, and I am looking for data to convince me that surge protection beyond what, these days, is built into every piece of electronics, really makes sense financially. Again, has anybody out there actually experienced surge-related damage? I have not.

Davydd
05-09-2014, 02:02 PM
We are pretty much talking about the surge protection built inside the van as opposed to putting outside like this.

http://i91.photobucket.com/albums/k309/Davydd_2006/Class%20B%20RV%20Camper%20Van/4011F0CB-500C-4A78-AA97-6F1B4F928ED8.jpg

pattonsr
05-09-2014, 03:41 PM
Let's hear Mike's thoughts on this:

http://www.advanced-rv.com/mikes-blog-built-in-surge-protector/

Davydd
05-09-2014, 04:00 PM
Mike and Marcia will be at the RV.net B11 Rally this coming weekend in Indiana listening once again to real B users and of course gaining their own experience. This year they have already made long distance trips this year from Ohio to Florida and Arizona.

I was impressed with all the little refinements they keep coming up with from B to B.

pattonsr
05-09-2014, 04:11 PM
avanti,

I believe you are having Great West Van install an Outback VFX2812M inverter/charger in your new Sprinter which is the inverter/charger that Advanced RV uses. If the VFX2812M takes care of power problems, then why do they sell an add-on FLEXware product as described below:

The FLEXware Surge Protector is designed to protect the FX’s sensitive components from excessively high voltages (e.g., electrical storms). Thermally fused metal oxide varistors (MOVs) limit or “clamp” these voltages and transfer the resulting current from a higher voltage port to a lower voltage port. The FLEXware Surge Protector features ACTIVE and ERROR LEDs for the DC, AC IN, and AC OUT circuits.

• The yellow ACTIVE LEDs light when power is applied to that circuit.
• A red ERROR light indicates a significant surge has damaged the FLEXware Surge Protector and although decreased protection remains, it is recommended the FLEXware Surge Protector be replaced at this time before further damage to it and ultimately the FX can occur.

Davydd
05-09-2014, 04:27 PM
I've never encountered any electrical problems with shore power connections so the subject was never a concern to me that I would need to go out and spend nearly $300 for a mounted at the box with a chain lock surge protector exposed to all. I will appreciate the fact Advanced RV will address this and make it a no-brainer for me. As to the opinions here, I suspect they will get around to reading them and investigate what is best to do. Unlike some other companies they will go with what they think is best and not what cuts cost. At least that is my impression with the stuff they have done so far.

bobojay
05-09-2014, 04:44 PM
I've never encountered any electrical problems with shore power connections so the subject was never a concern to me that I would need to go out and spend nearly $300 for a mounted at the box with a chain lock surge protector exposed to all. I will appreciate the fact Advanced RV will address this and make it a no-brainer for me. As to the opinions here, I suspect they will get around to reading them and investigate what is best to do. Unlike some other companies they will go with what they think is best and not what cuts cost. At least that is my impression with the stuff they have done so far.


We've run into reversed neutral, low voltage, and no grounds at several stops along the way in our RV experience. The low voltage was at a couple stops during the summer months, and the others were at state parks and private residences.
Oh, and we had a nearby lightning strike, real near, one time at a COE campground in KS. The surge protector saved our bacon, but sacrificed itself. (replaced free).

David, we had the hang at the box kind with our 2 previous units. Not worried about the lock or stealing because insurance would cover it. They were a pain though to carry and hookup, so on our current "B", I installed the permanent mount kind inside

Davydd
05-09-2014, 04:59 PM
Bob, Now I am knocking on wood because I have some of the same friends you have. ;)

mikeneundorfer
05-09-2014, 06:16 PM
We at Advanced-RV have reviewed the specifications and communication capabilities of the Outback protection and have compared it to the Surge Guard. We have decided to continue to install the Surge Guard in our circuit with the Outback as our standard approach. It is more costly but the combination provides more protection, better communication of power supply issues, and redundancy.

avanti
05-09-2014, 10:23 PM
avanti,

I believe you are having Great West Van install an Outback VFX2812M inverter/charger in your new Sprinter which is the inverter/charger that Advanced RV uses. If the VFX2812M takes care of power problems, then why do they sell an add-on FLEXware product as described below:

The FLEXware Surge Protector is designed to protect the FX’s sensitive components from excessively high voltages (e.g., electrical storms). Thermally fused metal oxide varistors (MOVs) limit or “clamp” these voltages and transfer the resulting current from a higher voltage port to a lower voltage port. The FLEXware Surge Protector features ACTIVE and ERROR LEDs for the DC, AC IN, and AC OUT circuits.

• The yellow ACTIVE LEDs light when power is applied to that circuit.
• A red ERROR light indicates a significant surge has damaged the FLEXware Surge Protector and although decreased protection remains, it is recommended the FLEXware Surge Protector be replaced at this time before further damage to it and ultimately the FX can occur.

Because, as I said in my previous msg, there are two different issues that are being confused in this thread. The text you quote is describing surge suppression. I never said that the Outback had bulletproof surge suppression built in. What I said was that it probably had AC power quality monitoring that duplicates the similar features found on the expensive external protection devices. Paying extra for these features if you already have them is almost certainly not cost-effective, although (as I said) a lot of people like the fancy displays anyway. Surge protection (such as that provided by the FLEXware device) certainly provides extra protection in case of lightning hits or other major transients. The question is whether or not the risk justifies the cost. Stories like that of Bobojay's lightning damage event provide evidence that it might be. Stories about motor damage (or whatever) due to voltage sags or miswired neutrals do not.

You are correct that I have specified the Outback on our new van. But since I haven't taken delivery yet, I can't speak from personal experience about what it does and does not do (my personal report was about the Prosine unit that I used to own). However, I found the following in the Outback manual:

idak
05-10-2014, 01:08 AM
We have a surge protector that we got from Camping World on sale for about $150 -- usually around $279. If you have a new RV with appliances still under warranty such as refrig, they require a surge protector or they will not necessarily honor the warranty. Easy to use at the pedestal.

Davydd
05-10-2014, 02:39 AM
As far as this subject goes regardless of opinion we have an up to date answer directly from Mike N. from Advanced RV in regard to the surge protector. There will be one inside the van separate and ahead of the inverter/charger. Moving onto another subject. :)

Davydd
05-10-2014, 12:36 PM
A couple of clarifications: On my vehicle at least, if connected to city water there is no failure prone regulator valve; the high city water pressure does not reach all the plumbing. It only goes to a simple on/off valve controlled by the SilverLeaf computer "Auto Fill" feature. When touching the Auto Fill on the SilverLeaf screen the valve opens to fill the water tank and it shuts off automatically or you can shut it off manually by touching the screen. This last permits partially filling the tank if desired.

Moving on to another subject. I noticed there was only one fill point for water. My two Class B Sprinters I've owned were set up with a loose connection fill for the tank and a screw the hose on fill for the city water. When I saw this one screw on fill point on the Advanced RV I asked how that worked. Maybe I misunderstood but I did ask that if you left the city water hooked up if your water pressure (better in my opinion than relying on a pump) would bypass the need for the water pump and I thought I heard yes. I was also told pressure regulation was built in and that adding one of those brass regulators to the connecting hose would not be necessary.

Diamondsea when I read your description I get the impression all water comes out of the tank and would then have to be pumped. Is that right? They did have a water pump there on display that was suppose to be better than the "judder" sounding pump I think most of us have in our Bs.

bobojay
05-10-2014, 03:05 PM
Moving on to another subject. I noticed there was only one fill point for water. My two Class B Sprinters I've owned were set up with a loose connection fill for the tank and a screw the hose on fill for the city water. When I saw this one screw on fill point on the Advanced RV I asked how that worked. Maybe I misunderstood but I did ask that if you left the city water hooked up if your water pressure (better in my opinion than relying on a pump) would bypass the need for the water pump and I thought I heard yes. I was also told pressure regulation was built in and that adding one of those brass regulators to the connecting hose would not be necessary.

Diamondsea when I read your description I get the impression all water comes out of the tank and would then have to be pumped. Is that right? They did have a water pump there on display that was suppose to be better than the "judder" sounding pump I think most of us have in our Bs.


I was wondering the same thing......

Diamondsea
05-10-2014, 04:28 PM
Re water fill: Mine has a "water door" on the side. Behind this door are two water connections -- first is a garden hose screw fitting for connection and auto fill operation as I have described. Immediately adjacent is an opening (with cap) about 1.5 inches wide that you can simply stick a hose into or even pour water into. This provides direct access to the tank in the event that the auto fill valve should malfunction. By the way the tank vent is someplace underneath as water will come out there if I fill my tank all the way while parked on my sloped drive.

On mine all pressure water is delivered by a 12 volt pump. This keeps high pressure city water off of the internal plumbing. I have had decades of experience with these pumps on boats. There are about 4 companies that make quality pumps for this application. There are two basic types. One, and the best in my opinion, has a simple on/off pressure switch (usually reliable micro-switch) generally set to come on at about 20PSI and off at about 40PSI. The down side is that the pump can chatter or pulse starting and stopping frequently. This can cause uneven water delivery and excessive wear on the motor. This problem is easily fixed by adding an accumulator tank generally near the pump output before hot and cold circuits are separated. The accumulator tank was added to my Advanced-RV at my request and it solves the problems. We widely use them on boats. The one I have is not much bigger than a 2-liter soda bottle. Inside it has a balloon type bladder pumped up (via a standard bicycle tire valve) to maybe 20PSI. I have never lived in a home with private well water but I think that bigger versions of accumulator tanks are used in such homes. My RV was a very early Advanced; I do not know if accumulator tanks are now standard.

The other type of pump uses a high-tech pressure sensor that actually varies the motor speed to maintain an even pressure. This is not as reliable in my opinion as the sensor can fail and the motor can burn out more easily than on the simpler units.

swihart
05-28-2014, 04:22 AM
Thefitrv.com just posted a reweiw of one of the Advanced RV demo units. Very impressive. It was the most positive review I have seen from them. They seem to like everything about Advanced RV. I can't blank them.

Sorry I don't have the link to the youtube video, but it should not be hard to find.


Bob

Davydd
05-29-2014, 03:29 AM
Here it is. We met James and Stephanie at Advanced Fest. We also got to test drive this reviewed model called Mzungo.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FvjQ4vFdAlA

sheral
01-18-2016, 11:57 PM
Are they getting ready to trade Lance in and move up to the Ocean One? I hate to say it as we are brand, brand, brand new B owners and we are already flirting with the idea of an Advanced RV in our future! Sad.... Ha!

Ooops, I see my reply was to a somewhat dated posting...

Davydd
01-19-2016, 12:38 AM
Sheral,

You caught yourself. The video was before James and Stef bought their Travato. James and Stef attended both the 2014 and 2015 Advanced Fest and put on seminars for keeping fit while traveling in an RV. Why they didn't buy an Advanced RV only they can answer but I have my guesses after meeting them. I would guess one major reason might have been cost. There is a very big considerable difference there. But I suspect a lot of other things went into their decision. Size would be one. Both the Ocean and Ocean One would be a departure from the more compact Travato which is closer to their previous B. Storing bicycles inside the B and four season use were their other big criteria I deduced. Four season and bicycle storage was accomplished because their B celebrity gave them a modicum of clout with Winnebago to make custom changes most customers could only dream. It helped them, it helped Winnebago and it might have helped future Winnebago customers, but it doesn't make them Winnebago spokespersons. That's just my observation.

sheral
01-19-2016, 05:18 AM
Copy Davydd, thanks :-)